Who will defend S'pore in view of more students fail to retu
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One very worrying issue that was brought up during the recent 'Singapore bashing' by the Malaysians regarding the complacency of most Singaporeans. They pointed out that most Singaporeans have lived too good a live that they are not interested to fight even if there is a war!Are they misjudging our capability or are there plain truths about the complacent Singaporeans?
There are more worrying signs that more Singaporeans who are studying overseas refuse to return after graduation! And worst still, the annual birth rate has plunged to all time low. Now, who is going to shoulder the role of defence if this trend continues? What needs to be done to correct these trends from continuing?
Many were asking whether one day Singapore needs to rely on mercenary fighters to defend its shoreline!? -
Mercenaries should never ever come into the picture. Read Machiavelli's "The Prince" to know more.Originally posted by Heartlander:Many were asking whether one day Singapore needs to rely on mercenary fighters to defend its shoreline!? -
Heartlander, read Machiavelli. Mercenaries will send our country to ruin.
I think that at the heart of it all lies the question of whether SIngaporeans care enough for SIngapore to fight for it. Cos if this question is answered in the positive, then no matter where one is, one will rush home to defend it.
When the Israelis were under attack by the Arabs, Israelis all over the world rushed back to join up their army units to fight. Those too old or too young to fight or with no units formed themselves into volunteer battalions.
I share Heartlander's worry that the Singaporeans of today are too soft and only think of getting out of SIngapore; as if leaving Singapore would make their life so much better. My view is, to these people: get the F out of my country. We don't need your kind here.
Having a small dedicated force who is willing, able and committed to fighting will always triumph over superior numbers anyday. History has shown this and we have no need to fear for those A**holes who refuse to come back to S'pore to fight if we are in trouble.
The arabs outnumbered the Israelis 10-1 in all 3 wars and yet suffered crushing defeats.
The Fins during WW2, though outnumbered nearly 25-1 thrashed the Russians so badly that it took the Russians nearly 1.5 million men KIA to secure Finland.
Even if in the unlikely event that S'pore loses the conventional war (touch wood! choy choy choy!) the fact is that 'north-man' will never be able to hold on to our state...without incurring disproportionate losses and it will make them withdraw. even if they beat us all back past the causeway, we will turn every building into a FIBUA for them, and good luck to them trying to clear every single damned built up area in S'pore... There will still be thousands of SIngaporeans running loose with arms and explosives and the knowhow to use them. And i'm sure all of us will be pissed as hell, and ready to die fighting - after all, with our backs pressed to the wall, there's nothing left to lose already.
Just look at the Israeli take over of Jenin...they had to fight it out building by building, painstakingly and watching their body count grow.
And they were just dealing with palestinian gunmen armed no more than with AKs and some explosives. and the jenin incident was just a refugee camp! not even a city...
Like Stalin scoffed at the German Commander of the 6th Army - we will make you pay in blood for every step you gain in Stalingrad.
and then when your blood flows kneww deep, we will still have the city.
now in the 21st C, the Chechens are teaching the russians that you can 'conquer' our lands, but you'll never own it and you'll never get a single moment of peace. -
Originally posted by No Frill:
Well, i am afraid this question will fetch the most negative answer from the younger generation of singapore if you bother to do any survey among the modern singaporean. Don't try to make it sound so positive when it's a fact that singapore is more becoming like a hotel more than a home to most as was pointed out in the news
[B]I think that at the heart of it all lies the question of whether SIngaporeans care enough for SIngapore to fight for it. Cos if this question is answered in the positive, then no matter where one is, one will rush home to defend it.
Well, maybe the government was and is still having the same view as yours. And hence the results, more local migrating oversea and more oversea are needed to fill in the gaps. Great policies right?
I share Heartlander's worry that the Singaporeans of today are too soft and only think of getting out of SIngapore; as if leaving Singapore would make their life so much better. My view is, to these people: get the F out of my country. We don't need your kind here.Having a small dedicated force who is willing, able and committed to fighting will always triumph over superior numbers anyday. History has shown this and we have no need to fear for those A**holes who refuse to come back to S'pore to fight if we are in trouble.
Is a small dedicated force sufficient? But does a dying nation facing population crisis need a large force to protect it anyway? But wait a minute, don't forget we still got a large pools of foreign worker to protect to substain the economic in singapore. -
FIBUA has always been a bitch. Every turn, every corner, every window, can be fatal to SOMEONE. It saps morale as well as the enemies fighting capabilities at the same time. The way I look at FIBUA in SIngapore, every drain can be turned into a trench, every HDB block conceal Sharpshooters, and more than enough places to position portable AT weapons.
Okay, I understand the topic relates to whether Singaporeans will fight or not in the first place. I can tell u, Singaporeans WILL fight, or risk having nothing left. Perhaps u should read Sun Tzu Art of War for more details. One technique to make your men fight, is to burn ur own supplies, and cut off yourself from retreat, and then make ur men unite and fight to the end. -
Its always very easy for people to say, "Siao ah, fight a war for Singapore, I'll be on the first flight/boat/train/car/trishaw out of Singapore". Have these people considered, when puch comes to shove, will the ports and airports still be open for them to get out? They'll only have 2 choices, fight to stay free or die trying, to quote a poster from another thread. Because the only other option is to die under occuaption
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Errmmm...Han Sin's strategy does not apply here Shotgun =) If you destroy our own supplies it would demoralize our soldiers instead.Originally posted by Shotgun:One technique to make your men fight, is to burn ur own supplies, and cut off yourself from retreat, and then make ur men unite and fight to the end.
The lack of escape routes and the need to protect love ones will make one fight.
As a famous chinese saying goes "When the dog is "kan Jiong" it will jump over the wall" -
I agree with Viper52 and Shotgun.
When push comes to shove, we'll all be in the same boat. we'll have to fight or die.
Anyway, to those sceptics who disagree with us on our will to fight, think about this:
A war doesn't erupt overnight. Mindef will know months in advance when it will need to go and start squishing northern bugs. Prior to that, all males will be denied exit from S'pore. Silent mobs will be carried out, more and more people will disappear from work and turn up in green.
Unless you have your own learjet to fly you out of S'pore, you can forget it. You're stuck with us here. Us being those of us who will gladly rush back to our units to kit up and get ready for war, to ensure our national survival.
And whatever your reason for remaining in S'pore (whether you siao on or you lun lun) once your back is to the wall, and you knwo that if you don't shoot, the bugs will, then every man will fight to the last drop.
as for those who refuse to come back to S'pore,...well. thats something that they have to live with. If we lose, they have nothing left too. They will be 2nd class citizens...oops, stateless refugees in a white man's country.
and when (not if) we win, those people who refused to come back earlier will catch hell from those people who stayed through the conflict.
Those brtishers and french who fled UK and france during WW2 and didnt' return until after the war was over thought taht they could just happily slip back in unnoticed.
Fat chance.
many were prosecuted for treason.
And rightly so. cowards. -
Kyo23, given the situation that you're 'stuck', here in S'pore willingly or otherwise in a conflict scenario, you mean you are going to tell me with a straight face that you will have no spirit to fight?
You mean you have no urge to pull the trigger when you know that if don't , once they charge your position (and assuming you're still alive) they will flip you over and bayonet your knee caps out through the back?
you mean you still don't have the urge to go down fighting when you know that if you don't, you'd likely end up as a POW?
my point is, no matter how 'soft' you think singaporeans here, when we're pushed to the wall, we'd lash hard back.
you would too. -
Rudin, every situation requires/allows different tactics. I'm not applying that tactic to EVERY situation, cos I'm not keen on commiting national suicide.
Soldiers often gain morale from different situations, how much they gain, depends on how well the commander rallies them. Some feel the urge to fight harder when they see atrocities, some fight harder out of desperation, and some fight for his buddy. Whatever these individual reasons maybe, it is up to their commanders to rally and push. Morale affects the fighting spirit, tenacity, and the ability to carry out actions with extreme violence and prejudice, up to a point where personal survival becomes secondary.
Admiral Arleigh Burke, (Captain at that point of time), charged Japanese Naval destroyers when he knew that he was gravely outnumbered. His attacks sent the Japs retreating, affecting positively, the war in the pacific.
Whatever that works, DO it. -
Yes, I would, but only if we're pushed to the wall and not in this current situation when a party is trying to be king monopolising and conscripting everyone to work for free while they gain all the benefit thru heavy taxes in everything and yet have the cheek to ask us to serve cheaply or even produce more offsprings to serve the nation in such an unconducive environment.Originally posted by No Frill:Kyo23, given the situation that you're 'stuck', here in S'pore willingly or otherwise in a conflict scenario, you mean you are going to tell me with a straight face that you will have no spirit to fight?
You mean you have no urge to pull the trigger when you know that if don't , once they charge your position (and assuming you're still alive) they will flip you over and bayonet your knee caps out through the back?
you mean you still don't have the urge to go down fighting when you know that if you don't, you'd likely end up as a POW?
my point is, no matter how 'soft' you think singaporeans here, when we're pushed to the wall, we'd lash hard back.
you would too.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 21 April 2002).] -
Huh? Conscripting everone to work for free? Whaddaya mean? When I go back to that fucking Tekong, I'm NOT WORKING, I'm SERVING MY COUNTRY, Goddamnit! It's a responsibility, an obligation, even though I fucking hate going back there later. If you think you are 'working for the government' when you serve NS, then you are not worth the priviledge of being a Singaporean.Originally posted by Kyo23:Yes, I would, but only if we're pushed to the wall and not in this current situation when a party is trying to be king monopolising and conscripting everyone to work for free while they gain all the benefit thru heavy taxes in everything and yet have the cheek to ask us to serve cheaply or even produce more offsprings to serve the nation in such an unconducive environment.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 21 April 2002).]
And what's this about heavy taxes? Wanna try migrating to Switzerland, or any other western country, for that matter? Over there, you will know what's the meaning of 'heavy taxes'. Singapore already has one of the lowest taxes in the world already, and you are still complaining. That's the problem with having a too good government - the people always ask for "more more more", but they dont appreciate what they already have. -
So is the MPs singaporean serving the country i like to ask? Aren't materistic thinking implanted into singaporean's brain by the government. No bonus for 9 month etc No pay increment for MPs and hence the complaint etc. Income taxes is not the only way they squeeze from you my dear. When the government is "too good", you won't be seeing local migrating oversea and you will see most of the foreigner making long queue to get the Pink IC instead of the Blue one i guess. And finally, we won't be facing population problems too when everyone turn the bedroom into factory and start replicating.Originally posted by YourFather:Huh? Conscripting everone to work for free? Whaddaya mean? When I go back to that fucking Tekong, I'm NOT WORKING, I'm SERVING MY COUNTRY, Goddamnit! It's a responsibility, an obligation, even though I fucking hate going back there later. If you think you are 'working for the government' when you serve NS, then you are not worth the priviledge of being a Singaporean.
And what's this about heavy taxes? Wanna try migrating to Switzerland, or any other western country, for that matter? Over there, you will know what's the meaning of 'heavy taxes'. Singapore already has one of the lowest taxes in the world already, and you are still complaining. That's the problem with having a too good government - the people always ask for "more more more", but they dont appreciate what they already have.
[This message has been edited by Kyo23 (edited 21 April 2002).] -
YourFather, read my responses in the thread "5% GST". I share your disappointment with these guys who are willing to turn the back on their obligation to their country just because they did not agree with the government. Like I said, going against your government is opposition. Turning your back on your country is treason.
BTW welcome back...hows Tekong? Flew over it on my way back to Oz...damn that place looks different from when I was there...for the better too
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 21 April 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Viper52 (edited 21 April 2002).] -
Originally posted by Viper52:
I am willing to bet they did not pay attention to the words of the oath they took. I will suggest they read and *UNDERSTAND* it.
YourFather, read my responses in the thread "5% GST". I share your disappointment with these guys who are willing to turn the back on their obligation to their country just because they did not agree with the government. Like I said, going against your government is opposition. Turning your back on your country is treason.
Who doesn't like to sit in a nice cool aircon room, and enjoy our lifes.....Instead of facing the harsh elements in the field?
Serving SAF is an obligation to the Nation, no matter what misgivings you might have with the goverment. I agree with Viper52, that refusing to do so is treason.
If we really have to fight, is to protect our loved ones, and our way of life. WW2 taught us an expensive lesson, that is we can only depend on ourselves for defence.
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The SAF Pledge
We, Members of the Singapore Armed Forces, do solemnly and sincerely pledge that: We will always bear true faith and allegiance to the President and the Republic of Singapore; We will always support and defend the Constitution; We will preserve and protect the honour and independence of our country with our lives.
7 Core Values of the Army
* Loyalty to Country
* Leadership
* Discipline
* Professionalism
* Fighting Spirit
* Ethics
* Care for Soldiers
The Six Rules of Conduct
1. We always honour our Nation. We will do everything to uphold it and nothing to disgrace it.
2. At all times, we must bear in mind that we are the protector of our citizens.
3. We are loyal to the Armed Forces and we take pride in our unit, our uniform, our discipline, our work, our training and ourselves.
4. We must be exemplary in our conduct. We respect others, and by our conduct and bearing win the respect of others. We are courageous but not reckless.
5. We are devoted to duty but not to ourselves.
6. We guard our weapons as we guard secrets.
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I was back there when they just changed into their present buildings. I would be damn...the harbour looks more like Tanah Merah Terminal reception and the housing there is just great, like a resort...makes me remises about my camp 1 days then....where the stupid rice falling on your plate sounds like sand on the changkol.Originally posted by Viper52:Like I said, going against your government is opposition. Turning your back on your country is treason.
BTW welcome back...hows Tekong? Flew over it on my way back to Oz...damn that place looks different from when I was there...for the better too
It is truly dishearting to know that our fellow country men could have sucn perception about defending the nation where they where bred and born in. Notice that they had lumped nation and goverment as a single entity...personal disappointment with the ruling junta should not and must never affect ones loyalty to his nation.
It is people like these who give the lousy impression to our neighbours up north that they are lazy and complacent..let's hope they wake up their ideas.
BTW Shotgun...I accept your point...i was just commenting that Han Sin's strategy who backfire in Singapore. Strategies must be used with a innovativeness and creativity and not just dug up from some books. -
I for one will want to get back to Singapore asap. Coz look at how the British government and people work, I feel fortunate that ours are more efficient and fast responses and adapt to changes fast enough.
Conparing the responses of my Malaysian classmates who are talented in their work and are Chinese and Singaporeans, most Malaysians want to work elsewhere whereas those Singaporeans wants to return home and work. Although most of us are average, our loyalty still lies with our families and country though few are willing to admit as they feel is corny to.
Overall Malaysia would face a brain drain as their talented Chinese and Indians (cited as they have a larger percentage of them)moved out of country and stay out there as they feel elsewhere is better, most of the home bred Singaporeans would want to be home.
But there is this number of Singapore who are overseas since young want to leave outside of Singapore as they are more familiar to the those countries.
Another group of people would want to leave Singapore to work would be the Arts pple, coz the market in Singapore is too small. And they feel there is no space for them to develop. But looking at the modern arts today, I would say it is senseless art. Oh yeah and druggies. would want to consider moving out of Singapore. Its lax law here in UK sure produce a lot of druggies and criminals. And I called the police when I witness and break in gave them the car plate number, considering the police staion is 45mins walk away, no responses for the ten minutes the thieives where searching the house. Consider that.
I posed the same questions to 3 of my friends here and the answer was yes they will go back and fight when the need come. -
Kyo, You have no idea what it means when u said "conscripting everybody for free govt labor." If u have been reading the news lately, (which I doubt u have), Russian conscripts get drafted to do farm work and work in factories.
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I was last there when they were piling the foundations at around the jetty, where the hyper-old camp next to the jetty is.Originally posted by Rudin:I was back there when they just changed into their present buildings. I would be damn...the harbour looks more like Tanah Merah Terminal reception and the housing there is just great, like a resort...makes me remises about my camp 1 days then....where the stupid rice falling on your plate sounds like sand on the changkol.
As for the rice, it does sound like sand on changkol, probably becos there IS sand on the plate. Either they gave you rice with additives to polish your teeth(sand) or extra proteins(worms). And then lets not forget ammonia soup noodles and rubber chee cheong fun.
Was at Asian Aerospace 2000 watching the display and talking to a Caucasian tourist when he pointed to Tekong and asked me, "which resort is that?". Try to imagine his face when I told him it was the army's basic military training centre. -
Ah yes, tekong. Hope i get BMTC2. hahah.
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I still remember those days where the cook slam the food into your mess tray, vegetables cook until yellow yellow meshy meshy. Meatballs so hard, fork also cannot go in. Eggs?...only time i saw them is parents visiting day....Ah....yes...and the long march into camp, after a cramped lengthy RPL ride, and pray it don't rain on the way.
Old crampy bunks....with err...interesting "happenings"...eg bunk 38. Those old batch will know what I mean. Call me crazy....but I do miss those times with my platoon mates. =P Nowdays batch dunno wat good life they are getting. -
Wah...you still got meatballs =) ? My time was meat cubes...steamed, boiled and tortured in all manners possible ^_^...During Parent's Visiting day...I didn't even bother going to the cookhouse =) There was homecooked food =)Originally posted by wombat:I still remember those days where the cook slam the food into your mess tray, vegetables cook until yellow yellow meshy meshy. Meatballs so hard, fork also cannot go in. Eggs?...only time i saw them is parents visiting day....Ah....yes...and the long march into camp, after a cramped lengthy RPL ride, and pray it don't rain on the way.
Old crampy bunks....with err...interesting "happenings"...eg bunk 38. Those old batch will know what I mean. Call me crazy....but I do miss those times with my platoon mates. =P Nowdays batch dunno wat good life they are getting.
Life now in BMTC is much better...I remember during one of my rare visits there during unit missions, I ate the cook house food...chicken bryani with giant bananas and some apples we kapok from the Fair Price auntie...
gosh...such food was unimaginable during my BMTC days...
Sheezh...the cook house food quantity now is sometimes better than the stuff I eat at home...lucky NS boys.... -
Oi...don't forget you have to say thank you to the cook some more ok?Originally posted by wombat:I still remember those days where the cook slam the food into your mess tray, vegetables cook until yellow yellow meshy meshy. Meatballs so hard, fork also cannot go in. Eggs?...only time i saw them is parents visiting day....Ah....yes...and the long march into camp, after a cramped lengthy RPL ride, and pray it don't rain on the way.
Old crampy bunks....with err...interesting "happenings"...eg bunk 38. Those old batch will know what I mean. Call me crazy....but I do miss those times with my platoon mates. =P Nowdays batch dunno wat good life they are getting.
Funny happenings? Tekongs like no where else man! -
We had something vaguely resembling meat quite often. Couldn't ID what it was...just that it looked like meat.
The cookhouses of today? I had the pleasure of eating fro some of them near the end of my service, all I can say is my current uni canten loses out to it. 'Nuff said. -
Yeap...tried them during my ICT, vastly improved and actually enjoyable. Ahh....yes...no more cookhouse fatigue =POriginally posted by Viper52:We had something vaguely resembling meat quite often. Couldn't ID what it was...just that it looked like meat.
The cookhouses of today? I had the pleasure of eating fro some of them near the end of my service, all I can say is my current uni canten loses out to it. 'Nuff said.