INTERVIEW
Anwar Ibrahim
Anwar to Abdullah: It's nothing personal
By Ioannis Gatsiounis
KUALA LUMPUR - It has been a decade since Anwar Ibrahim has held political
office, and yet the opposition politician remains the ruling government's
biggest concern as Malaysia readies itself for parliamentary elections. Prime
Minister Abdullah Badawi called the snap polls for March 8, a month before a
politically motivated corruption conviction which bars Anwar from politics
officially ends.
The former Islamic youth leader and deputy premier has since his release from
prison in 2004 refashioned his political image as a pious crusader for social
justice and racial equality. Although he cannot run in the upcoming polls, he
nonetheless is seen as the unifying figure for a disparate group of opposition
parties, which
include the Islamist party known as PAS, the Chinese-based and secular
Democratic Action Party (DAP) and his own multi-religious and multiracial
People's Justice Party (PKR).
Anwar's critics contend that he changes his tune depending on the audience he
is addressing - a charge the veteran politician denies. Yet a poor showing by
the opposition on Saturday may well force Anwar to rethink his strategies - if
not his political future.
In a wide-ranging interview, Anwar addresses the many challenges Malaysia faces
and calls on the electorate to vote for change.
Asia Times Online: What do you see as wrong with Malaysia?
Anwar Ibrahim: Now we're seeing more anger. The Indians are
enraged because of perceived discrimination and demolition of temples. It's
widespread throughout the country. And among the Chinese there's a perception
that the discriminatory policies have gone a bit too far to enrich the few at
their expense.
So this is the basic problem. The government's failure, due to incompetence and
poor leadership, has affected them aversely. And the state of our economy: we
rely to a large extent on [foreign direct investments] ... and we have lost
that. We have lost our competitiveness; we have lost out to our neighbors.
ATol: The Chinese and Indian communities have voiced their
frustration about a number of government policies, but over the years most have
continued to support the Barisan Nasional-led ruling coalition. Do you foresee
a change at the upcoming polls?
AI: Well, I see change because I think [the government has]
crossed the line. For example, we have seen the destruction of [Hindu] temples,
the issue of permits, or building bylaws. This is the first time we have seen a
100-year-old temple demolished. Nothing has been done to address the legitimate
grievances of the Indian community: poverty, unemployment, housing, crime.
And among the Chinese, when the economy becomes more sluggish, then they of
course will attach blame to poor governance and the [affirmative action] New
Economic Policy. And then how does the government respond? Of course,
brandishing the keris [traditional Malay dagger] towards minority groups
becomes very symbolic. It's virtually a threat. They change the language ... of
instruction [to Malay] for math and science in Chinese schools.
So I think unlike previous elections, the Chinese and the Indians have
virtually made a clear shift. Normally Malaysians maintain their decorum and
are quite polite. But now you see ministers going and being booed, which is
unheard of.
ATol: Why vote for your PKR party? What can you and your party
bring to the people that the BN [Barisan Nasional] has not?
AI: First is the issue of governance. We have made it very clear
that constitutional guarantees must be protected, which means we respect the
Malay majority [and] Islam as the religion of the federation. But the
constitution also guarantees freedom of conscience, religion and expression.
The rights of non-Malays in terms of language and culture must be respected.
Second and very critical is our Malaysia Economic Agenda. We've crafted our
agenda in a way that will make us more competitive and attract investment - but
not at the expense of the Malay community. Even in areas where you need to have
affirmative action, it will not be based on race: affirmative action for the
marginalized, for the poor irrespective of race.
ATol: There is a great deal of indignation among the Chinese,
having been victim to discriminatory policies for so long. Isn't there a
legitimate fear among Malays that if you scrap the New Economic Policy, the
Chinese would pursue their personal and community interests at the expense of
the Malays?
AI: There is, I agree. I have crafted the Malaysian Economic
Agenda for more than a year now. There is no free media. So therefore we have
to publish half a million pamphlets so people can understand. It will not be at
the expense of the Malays, because it is affirmative action to protect the
interest of the majority of the poor and marginalized, which means you do away
with the 30% [ethnic Malay ownership] control [requirement for local]
companies. We would take RM10 billion [US$3.1 billion] for quality education,
so the majority of the funds would still go to the Malays.
ATol: But what is it about the policy that guarantees protection
for the Malays?
AI: If I have 10 billion ringgit to spend for education or
whatever, do I then give contracts or construction away to 20 Malay families?
Or do I allocate these resources to all poor Malaysians, irrespective of race?
Now, 80% of [state] funds go to [only] a million Malays.
But then the funds will also be able to be absorbed by the Chinese and Indians
- the deserving ones. And the Malays would actually benefit more than they do
now. But there has been incessant propaganda for the last three decades that
our [Malay] survival would depend only on the New Economic Policy.
ATol: What is the party, and more broadly the opposition, doing
differently this time around from the 2004 elections? What lessons have been
learned and how have you re-tooled and re-strategized?
AI: One is to work together; one opposition candidate versus the
BN. Second is to address issues clearly to the public. We can talk about
independent judiciary, free media, freedom of conscience, constitutional
guarantees. But you have to articulate these issues in clear terms.
ATol: But in the past the opposition has raised these issues
without sufficiently articulating the consequences. Are the consequences being
articulated? In other words I could say the BN is corrupt but unless you're
conveying to the people the consequences of that corruption, the message runs
the risk of getting lost.
AI: That's right. When our speakers talk they must not just talk
about an independent judiciary. You talk about how corruption has led to cases
being determined at the expense of the people ... which means the poor suffer.
Or, on the issue of price increases, why is it that Malaysia is the [world's]
largest producer of oil palm and still [there isn't] enough in their
supermarkets? Is it because you protect the cartels? You don't even allocate 2%
to benefit the poor. So you have to articulate it in a way people can
understand.
ATol: Some people have charged that you're not a genuine
reformer. How has your time in the political wilderness changed you?
AI: Well, of course, it's a time to meditate and reflect and
read. But for me it should be done from our programs and actions ... Because I
think that even in my time in government, you talk about public housing
programs, you talk about toll increases - I could defend my record ... Why is
it when I go to the low-cost housing areas like Kampong Kerinchi I have huge
support? They know that I was the last bastion for effective programs by the
government for the poor when I was minister.
ATol: How have you changed your ideas about governing and the
direction of the country since you were last in office?
AI: Well, I think you mature. And I think globalization and the
changing environment would dictate - demand - that you also
adapt accordingly. Your
understanding of the policies or the economy, your
assumptions that you can decouple easily, knowing
that it's not realistic.
Okay, I'm very
passionate about working with and helping the
poor. [But] you realize that without growth and
competitiveness, you will not have the resources,
which means you have to have a market-friendly
economy and other things - reforms - before you
can assist and elevate the living conditions of
the poor ... I think [the government] has failed
on both counts, attempting to propel the economy
but ignoring the plight of the poor.
ATol: You are now
articulating a much more democratic agenda than
what you did when you were in the United Malays
Nasional Organization (UMNO)-led government. Did
you have some epiphany that democratic principles
are important for development?
AI: Of course you can
articulate your position more freely now. But if
you look at my position - freedom of democracy and
empowerment and support for an independent
judiciary are there. So I don't think it's quite
correct to suggest that these are only thoughts
[I'm having] now. But then you articulate, you
craft in a different manner, because of the
constraints of the media.
ATol: A letter writer to a
politics and culture website recently commented
that your "faction within UMNO was remembered
[even] by UMNO members as one of the most
aggressive ... and deeply feared". How do you
respond?
AI: Aggressive,
yes. We were looking to achieve reform. For
instance, I introduced this anti-corruption bill.
It was immensely unpopular among the UMNO leaders.
Not [just] UMNO supporters, but ministers for that
matter ... I looked at the Hong Kong Independent
Commission Against Corruption. There's a provision
that if you are deemed to be corrupt even after 10
years in office - that you benefited while you
were in power - they can go after you. That
provision was strongly opposed to.
ATol: I think, though, what
the letter writer meant by "aggressive" was
intimidating.
AI: That's the
first time I'm hearing this. I was [part of] the
more liberal wing of the government. It's quite
known. For example, I engaged the Bar Council at
the time [former premier] Mahathir [Mohamad] was
fighting [them]. When there was a huge protest
over the Baku dam, I allowed them to come in and
discussed it with them. When the draft bill was
tabled in cabinet, I faxed the draft to the
opposition leader the moment I got it, which had
never happened in the past.
ATol: Some people say Islam
has begun to play too central a role in Malaysian
life. Do you agree and what would you do to revise
matters?
AI: It depends on
how you perceive this. The super-liberal wing of
the public would want to have nothing to do with
Islam. And you have an extremely conservative wing
that wants to dictate. So I don't share either
view. But then we have to sort it out.
You
have to engage them, allow them to articulate
their views. So I think for a person to suggest in
Malaysia - to deny the role of religion and Islam
- I don't share that view. Where I think we draw
the line is when it comes to compelling people, or
not allowing non-Muslims to use the civil courts.
That's unheard of in our 50 years.
ATol: Obviously there is
increased tension between the races with religion
playing a part. What as a leader would you do to
defuse the situation?
AI: I
am opposed if a group for example wants to compel
others to Islam, [or] if you apostatize you should
be shot. And the other view says religion should
have no role whatsoever; we should do away with
the religious court. I also disagree with that. I
think the consensus among Muslims is that the
sharia court should be confined to Muslim personal
law and Muslim affairs.
The problem is
when you use this legislation to compel ... to
deny non-Muslims to bring their cases to the civil
courts, because finally the issue of faith is a
personal issue. I am a Muslim. I believe in Islam.
I don't rejoice in hearing that people are leaving
Islam, but I think finally it is his or her
personal decision. It is beyond me and I don't
think we should politicize that further.
ATol: The prime minister's
son-in-law and UMNO deputy youth chief Khairy
Jamaluddin recently branded you as an agent of the
Jews and the United States. There are reportedly
pictures of you and [former US deputy defense
secretary] Paul Wolfowitz being disseminated in
the villages. Could this be damaging to you
politically?
AI: It could.
But look ... I say yes, I'm a friend of the Jews.
I am a friend of the Chinese, a friend of the
Muslims. Where is the problem? The Iraq war - I am
against it. There are many Americans, including
Jews, who are against the Iraq war.
ATol: But anti-Semitism and
anti-Americanism run deep in Malaysia. It's maybe
not as vocal as in some other places, but there is
a great deal of ignorance and fear. And UMNO has
the machinery to fan the flames. What are you
doing to combat it?
AI: It
does [run deep], it's ignorance, and it's been
[reinforced] by leaders. Mahathir did it ... and
this is dangerous. I did address [the
allegations], but in the last few months I have
not because I asked some religious leaders and
they said [only] a small number of people are
being influenced by this and they said I don't
need to respond. So I have moved on ... We are
taking a civil suit against Khairy on that
allegation.
ATol: Some
people say you haven't been very critical of the
prime minister. This has led to speculation that
you may one day attempt to rejoin UMNO. Why
haven't you been more critical?
AI: I have nothing personal
against him.
ATol: But this
is the election season. Don't you need to use
everything within the capacity of the law at this
point to end the BN's two-thirds parliamentary
majority?
AI: If I have
evidence, I present it. But with Abdullah there is
incompetence ... He gives a multi-billion ringgit
contract to his son to build a monorail in Penang
without tender. He gives a 25 billion ringgit
development approval for Patrick Lim, his crony in
Penang. These things are being said.
But
to make personal attacks, I refuse. But it's wrong
for them to say I haven't been critical. You say
the leadership is incompetent, you say that under
Abdullah we have been less competitive
economically, that corruption has become more
endemic, crime rates have increased - all under
Abdullah. I have done that, made major criticisms
of him. But to go [down the road of personal
attacks], well [Abdullah] sleeps all the time, why
is he married to this [new foreign wife] Jeanne? I
don't go there.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JC07Ae01.html
Anwar Ibrahim
honestly speaking the ruling party and the opposition party are equally bad
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
INTERVIEW
Anwar Ibrahim
Anwar to Abdullah: It's nothing personal
By Ioannis Gatsiounis
KUALA LUMPUR - It has been a decade since Anwar Ibrahim has held political office, and yet the opposition politician remains the ruling government's biggest concern as Malaysia readies itself for parliamentary elections. Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi called the snap polls for March 8, a month before a politically motivated corruption conviction which bars Anwar from politics officially ends.
The former Islamic youth leader and deputy premier has since his release from prison in 2004 refashioned his political image as a pious crusader for social justice and racial equality. Although he cannot run in the upcoming polls, he nonetheless is seen as the unifying figure for a disparate group of opposition parties, which include the Islamist party known as PAS, the Chinese-based and secular Democratic Action Party (DAP) and his own multi-religious and multiracial People's Justice Party (PKR).
Anwar's critics contend that he changes his tune depending on the audience he is addressing - a charge the veteran politician denies. Yet a poor showing by the opposition on Saturday may well force Anwar to rethink his strategies - if not his political future.
In a wide-ranging interview, Anwar addresses the many challenges Malaysia faces and calls on the electorate to vote for change.Asia Times Online: What do you see as wrong with Malaysia?
Anwar Ibrahim: Now we're seeing more anger. The Indians are enraged because of perceived discrimination and demolition of temples. It's widespread throughout the country. And among the Chinese there's a perception that the discriminatory policies have gone a bit too far to enrich the few at their expense.
So this is the basic problem. The government's failure, due to incompetence and poor leadership, has affected them aversely. And the state of our economy: we rely to a large extent on [foreign direct investments] ... and we have lost that. We have lost our competitiveness; we have lost out to our neighbors.
ATol: The Chinese and Indian communities have voiced their frustration about a number of government policies, but over the years most have continued to support the Barisan Nasional-led ruling coalition. Do you foresee a change at the upcoming polls?
AI: Well, I see change because I think [the government has] crossed the line. For example, we have seen the destruction of [Hindu] temples, the issue of permits, or building bylaws. This is the first time we have seen a 100-year-old temple demolished. Nothing has been done to address the legitimate grievances of the Indian community: poverty, unemployment, housing, crime.
And among the Chinese, when the economy becomes more sluggish, then they of course will attach blame to poor governance and the [affirmative action] New Economic Policy. And then how does the government respond? Of course, brandishing the keris [traditional Malay dagger] towards minority groups becomes very symbolic. It's virtually a threat. They change the language ... of instruction [to Malay] for math and science in Chinese schools.
So I think unlike previous elections, the Chinese and the Indians have virtually made a clear shift. Normally Malaysians maintain their decorum and are quite polite. But now you see ministers going and being booed, which is unheard of.
ATol: Why vote for your PKR party? What can you and your party bring to the people that the BN [Barisan Nasional] has not?
AI: First is the issue of governance. We have made it very clear that constitutional guarantees must be protected, which means we respect the Malay majority [and] Islam as the religion of the federation. But the constitution also guarantees freedom of conscience, religion and expression. The rights of non-Malays in terms of language and culture must be respected.
Second and very critical is our Malaysia Economic Agenda. We've crafted our agenda in a way that will make us more competitive and attract investment - but not at the expense of the Malay community. Even in areas where you need to have affirmative action, it will not be based on race: affirmative action for the marginalized, for the poor irrespective of race.
ATol: There is a great deal of indignation among the Chinese, having been victim to discriminatory policies for so long. Isn't there a legitimate fear among Malays that if you scrap the New Economic Policy, the Chinese would pursue their personal and community interests at the expense of the Malays?
AI: There is, I agree. I have crafted the Malaysian Economic Agenda for more than a year now. There is no free media. So therefore we have to publish half a million pamphlets so people can understand. It will not be at the expense of the Malays, because it is affirmative action to protect the interest of the majority of the poor and marginalized, which means you do away with the 30% [ethnic Malay ownership] control [requirement for local] companies. We would take RM10 billion [US$3.1 billion] for quality education, so the majority of the funds would still go to the Malays.
ATol: But what is it about the policy that guarantees protection for the Malays?
AI: If I have 10 billion ringgit to spend for education or whatever, do I then give contracts or construction away to 20 Malay families? Or do I allocate these resources to all poor Malaysians, irrespective of race? Now, 80% of [state] funds go to [only] a million Malays.
But then the funds will also be able to be absorbed by the Chinese and Indians - the deserving ones. And the Malays would actually benefit more than they do now. But there has been incessant propaganda for the last three decades that our [Malay] survival would depend only on the New Economic Policy.
ATol: What is the party, and more broadly the opposition, doing differently this time around from the 2004 elections? What lessons have been learned and how have you re-tooled and re-strategized?
AI: One is to work together; one opposition candidate versus the BN. Second is to address issues clearly to the public. We can talk about independent judiciary, free media, freedom of conscience, constitutional guarantees. But you have to articulate these issues in clear terms.
ATol: But in the past the opposition has raised these issues without sufficiently articulating the consequences. Are the consequences being articulated? In other words I could say the BN is corrupt but unless you're conveying to the people the consequences of that corruption, the message runs the risk of getting lost.
AI: That's right. When our speakers talk they must not just talk about an independent judiciary. You talk about how corruption has led to cases being determined at the expense of the people ... which means the poor suffer. Or, on the issue of price increases, why is it that Malaysia is the [world's] largest producer of oil palm and still [there isn't] enough in their supermarkets? Is it because you protect the cartels? You don't even allocate 2% to benefit the poor. So you have to articulate it in a way people can understand.
ATol: Some people have charged that you're not a genuine reformer. How has your time in the political wilderness changed you?
AI: Well, of course, it's a time to meditate and reflect and read. But for me it should be done from our programs and actions ... Because I think that even in my time in government, you talk about public housing programs, you talk about toll increases - I could defend my record ... Why is it when I go to the low-cost housing areas like Kampong Kerinchi I have huge support? They know that I was the last bastion for effective programs by the government for the poor when I was minister.
ATol: How have you changed your ideas about governing and the direction of the country since you were last in office?
AI: Well, I think you mature. And I think globalization and the changing environment would dictate - demand - that you also adapt accordingly. Your understanding of the policies or the economy, your assumptions that you can decouple easily, knowing that it's not realistic.
Okay, I'm very passionate about working with and helping the poor. [But] you realize that without growth and competitiveness, you will not have the resources, which means you have to have a market-friendly economy and other things - reforms - before you can assist and elevate the living conditions of the poor ... I think [the government] has failed on both counts, attempting to propel the economy but ignoring the plight of the poor.ATol: You are now articulating a much more democratic agenda than what you did when you were in the United Malays Nasional Organization (UMNO)-led government. Did you have some epiphany that democratic principles are important for development?
AI: Of course you can articulate your position more freely now. But if you look at my position - freedom of democracy and empowerment and support for an independent judiciary are there. So I don't think it's quite correct to suggest that these are only thoughts [I'm having] now. But then you articulate, you craft in a different manner, because of the constraints of the media.
ATol: A letter writer to a politics and culture website recently commented that your "faction within UMNO was remembered [even] by UMNO members as one of the most aggressive ... and deeply feared". How do you respond?
AI: Aggressive, yes. We were looking to achieve reform. For instance, I introduced this anti-corruption bill. It was immensely unpopular among the UMNO leaders. Not [just] UMNO supporters, but ministers for that matter ... I looked at the Hong Kong Independent Commission Against Corruption. There's a provision that if you are deemed to be corrupt even after 10 years in office - that you benefited while you were in power - they can go after you. That provision was strongly opposed to.
ATol: I think, though, what the letter writer meant by "aggressive" was intimidating.
AI: That's the first time I'm hearing this. I was [part of] the more liberal wing of the government. It's quite known. For example, I engaged the Bar Council at the time [former premier] Mahathir [Mohamad] was fighting [them]. When there was a huge protest over the Baku dam, I allowed them to come in and discussed it with them. When the draft bill was tabled in cabinet, I faxed the draft to the opposition leader the moment I got it, which had never happened in the past.
ATol: Some people say Islam has begun to play too central a role in Malaysian life. Do you agree and what would you do to revise matters?
AI: It depends on how you perceive this. The super-liberal wing of the public would want to have nothing to do with Islam. And you have an extremely conservative wing that wants to dictate. So I don't share either view. But then we have to sort it out.
You have to engage them, allow them to articulate their views. So I think for a person to suggest in Malaysia - to deny the role of religion and Islam - I don't share that view. Where I think we draw the line is when it comes to compelling people, or not allowing non-Muslims to use the civil courts. That's unheard of in our 50 years.
ATol: Obviously there is increased tension between the races with religion playing a part. What as a leader would you do to defuse the situation?
AI: I am opposed if a group for example wants to compel others to Islam, [or] if you apostatize you should be shot. And the other view says religion should have no role whatsoever; we should do away with the religious court. I also disagree with that. I think the consensus among Muslims is that the sharia court should be confined to Muslim personal law and Muslim affairs.
The problem is when you use this legislation to compel ... to deny non-Muslims to bring their cases to the civil courts, because finally the issue of faith is a personal issue. I am a Muslim. I believe in Islam. I don't rejoice in hearing that people are leaving Islam, but I think finally it is his or her personal decision. It is beyond me and I don't think we should politicize that further.
ATol: The prime minister's son-in-law and UMNO deputy youth chief Khairy Jamaluddin recently branded you as an agent of the Jews and the United States. There are reportedly pictures of you and [former US deputy defense secretary] Paul Wolfowitz being disseminated in the villages. Could this be damaging to you politically?
AI: It could. But look ... I say yes, I'm a friend of the Jews. I am a friend of the Chinese, a friend of the Muslims. Where is the problem? The Iraq war - I am against it. There are many Americans, including Jews, who are against the Iraq war.
ATol: But anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism run deep in Malaysia. It's maybe not as vocal as in some other places, but there is a great deal of ignorance and fear. And UMNO has the machinery to fan the flames. What are you doing to combat it?
AI: It does [run deep], it's ignorance, and it's been [reinforced] by leaders. Mahathir did it ... and this is dangerous. I did address [the allegations], but in the last few months I have not because I asked some religious leaders and they said [only] a small number of people are being influenced by this and they said I don't need to respond. So I have moved on ... We are taking a civil suit against Khairy on that allegation.
ATol: Some people say you haven't been very critical of the prime minister. This has led to speculation that you may one day attempt to rejoin UMNO. Why haven't you been more critical?
AI: I have nothing personal against him.
ATol: But this is the election season. Don't you need to use everything within the capacity of the law at this point to end the BN's two-thirds parliamentary majority?
AI: If I have evidence, I present it. But with Abdullah there is incompetence ... He gives a multi-billion ringgit contract to his son to build a monorail in Penang without tender. He gives a 25 billion ringgit development approval for Patrick Lim, his crony in Penang. These things are being said.
But to make personal attacks, I refuse. But it's wrong for them to say I haven't been critical. You say the leadership is incompetent, you say that under Abdullah we have been less competitive economically, that corruption has become more endemic, crime rates have increased - all under Abdullah. I have done that, made major criticisms of him. But to go [down the road of personal attacks], well [Abdullah] sleeps all the time, why is he married to this [new foreign wife] Jeanne? I don't go there.http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JC07Ae01.html
Anwar Ibrahim
maybe it is good that he is seeing this outside so that and hope that if he is back in than he fixed the problems kinda of back to the politics in the 60s.
it shld be some sort of "Romance of the 3 Kingdom"
It's just a matter of time before Mr Anwar Ibrahim becomes the next Malaysian PM.
If what he said about BN MPs defacting to the oppositon party, then it will be sooner than we think that a major change will happen in Malaysia.
I'm betting on his persistance and charisma to change the political landscape in Malaysia for the good of all Malaysians, regardless of race and religion.
The day will come for Malaysia when there is no longer any race-based politics. All we will see is multi-racial parties to govern the mult-racial country.
REFORMASI !!!
Ismail
http://www.richlawnchair.com/page42.html
http://210065.lawnchairmillionaire.com/mysecret
malaysia will move forward with anwar. kudos to the political will of the malaysian who dared to make the change.
if the resource rich states have more equitable distribution of wealth, then we will indeed see a more prosperous nation overall.
I heard some talk of Badawi himself defecting over to the opposition side after he step down.
Originally posted by Shotgun:I heard some talk of Badawi himself defecting over to the opposition side after he step down.
cardinal sin, won't you think?
and play second fiddle to anwar? the sun is more likely to rise from the west.