The middle class Singaporean, Trapped?
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Originally posted by storywolf:
You totally missed the point !!1) Raise in GST - was it needed ? It came at a bad timing ... when things are bad.
So you got a raise in mid year ... but GST also raise - end up your raise may not even match the gst raise - you are poorer off ... but Government have surpluses !!!
2) Cost of land to raise is due to poor planning and estimation of the business need for office space by the government ... !!! This lead to shortage and thus speculation !!!3) Govt have been too easy on allowing foreign labours into the market .... this does affect the labour market for local ...!!! Local are been force out of jobs ....!
4) How much is your 3 bedroom HDB - how did you pay for it ? CPF ... yep off course you don't feel the pain .... as you really fork out nothing ... yet CPF will pay for it ... and long installment ! Don't be so cocky ... wait till you old then you find your CPF - pay flat .... after that what is left is not enough to see you through old age !!!I do not take out loan ... and i do not spend like no tomorrow !! But I do see my standard of living keep dropping !!! Govt policy is just for show for the poor !!! With much more benefit to the rich and themselves !!! For middle class there is totally nothing !!!
x2... looks cheap BUT its not... cos u still end up with debts until u r 50-60... finish paying then cpf duno left wat liao... very interested to know how much he earns to come up with tis sort of statement... -
Originally posted by storywolf:
Govt policy is just for show for the poor !!! With much more benefit to the rich and themselves !!! For middle class there is totally nothing !!!
i do agree with you that the poor needs more help. as for the rich, regardless of situation, they are likely to stay rich or get richer.
r u expecting handouts from the government for the middle class? if so, what kind?
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Originally posted by eagle:
I also saw one super big bungalow (I guess around 7000 to 8000 sq ft, 2 semi-Ds combined into one house). Everyday, they will take out chinese herbs and put in the sun to dry... So some of those chinese medicinal stores... might actually be earning damn a lot...
Then again, many of the street smart bengs actually become successful after settling down in marriage, so I guess the girl didn't think of long term when marrying ba.
the C328 aquarium shop at Clementi ave 8 is one classic example. i dont think the owner is JC or Uni grad but his business of selling fishes and aquarium accessories is very successful. check out the chicken rice stall owner at bishan central. HUUUUGE crowds everyday!
they wont report the actual earnings, instead get accountant to manipulate the figures that they pay even less tax.
but rentals are a big killer.
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rising cost of living is inevitable.
the only way is to be frugal in spendings and govt SHOULD implement minimum wages.
the concept of keeping labour wages low for competition will make the lives of the low income group even harder. it does benefit the rich as they dont need to fork out much for labours and keep even bigger profit for themselves.
so where is the priority? to look after the citizens or to look after the businesses?
the problem is the gross misrepresentation of the working class in the current parliament which is predominantly businessmen. do u think the the businessmen will propose more wages for the common people and shoot their profits in their foot?
Singapore need the inputs on all policies from a wider range of people from different backgrounds, not just everything from the elites biz people. -
Originally posted by deathbait:
1) increase in taxes, and you're surprised there is a slight surplus? If I gave you a pay raise in the middle of the year, would you be surprised if you saved more money that year?
2) Rising cost of land can only be blamed on the people. Speculation is what causes bubbles. Sure, the IRs encourage speculation. So would a million other things. Should the gov stand still for fear of changing the status quo? That's ridiculous.
3) I'm interested to hear how the government "goes out of it's way" to keep your wages low. Seriously. I've heard this often...and I'm interested to hear why you would think so.
4) I'm looking to get married too, coincidentally. I've also been looking at housing. I've actually been surprised at how easy it seems to afford a 3 room HDB. Oh sure, it's not in the "popular" areas. So what? You're starting a new family...you're SUPPOSED to start from the bottom.
Last but not least, I need to stress that if anything, it is the people in the middle class that are devising the traps that they complain of. They spend like there's no tommorow, take out loans they don't need, and then complain they can't escape the poverty trap. It's downright laughable.
1) Wasn't the increse in GST to offset the costs helping the poor among other costs? Wasn't it to offset a 0.8 Bil projected deficit?
I quote Ms Syliva Lim
"For FY08, the government has once again projected a deficit of about $0.8b. In a commentary in the Business Times Weekend Edition 16-17 Feb 08, Chief Economist at Daiwa Institute of Research (Singapore), PK Basu, wrote a Commentary entitled: “Deficit Next Year? Just Don’t Bet On It”. It was observed that “Singapore’s budgetary accounting system is among the most conservative in the world, as the fiscal balance is obtained by subtracting both operating and development expenditure from the government’s operating revenue alone. The government’s ample investment income is not counted as government revenue, (though) in recent years (it has made) a “small concession” by using up to 50% of investment income to fund special transfers”. The writer also notes that since the government is starting FY 08 with a larger surplus as a base, next year’s fiscal balance will also be stronger, assuming budgeted increases in revenue and expenditure. Coming back to his initial question of whether there would actually be a deficit in FY 2008, he writes: “A betting man could do worse than place a large wager on actual revenues comfortably exceeding the Budget’s projections next year too!”"
CitiGroup Economist Kit Wei Seng : "the GST hike may have been unnecessary or could have been delayed or staggered…the GST hike has contributed to the unexpected bulge in government revenues, while exacerbating inflation pressures”
2) Isn't the true objective of public housing to maintain an affordable alternative for Singaporeans to get a roof above their heads? But when even the middle class find it hard pressed to afford it. Like when the rising costs are dispropotionate to the wages that most people are receiving, or when the spending power is actually shrinking.
3) Quote from PAP MP
"HR managers in many companies are not receptive. Some have become used to hiring foreign workers in the days when we had a tight labour market. They refuse to consider new options and just want to carry on with what they are comfortable with."
Govt has not given any form of incentive to hire locals first. I'm a project manager and when I go to the resource manager to ask for engineers, the candidates were all foreigners, not even a single one has a face to face interview. All Via teleconference. I ask, no singaporean? he said "<insert nationality> all cheap and good!". I had to go out of my way to find a local candidate thru my own contacts and then refer them to the hiring/resource manager.
4) What, I cannot chose to live near my parents? just looking from a smaller size 4 room flat near my parents also near impossible. Re-sale market I'm talking about here. People asking for exhobitant fees in cash.
But its refresing to see boths sides of the subject being thrown here. (Which is why I started the thread =P) -
Originally posted by Jontst78:
1) Wasn't the increse in GST to offset the costs helping the poor among other costs? Wasn't it to offset a 0.8 Bil projected deficit?
I quote Ms Syliva Lim
"For FY08, the government has once again projected a deficit of about $0.8b. In a commentary in the Business Times Weekend Edition 16-17 Feb 08, Chief Economist at Daiwa Institute of Research (Singapore), PK Basu, wrote a Commentary entitled: “Deficit Next Year? Just Don’t Bet On It”. It was observed that “Singapore’s budgetary accounting system is among the most conservative in the world, as the fiscal balance is obtained by subtracting both operating and development expenditure from the government’s operating revenue alone. The government’s ample investment income is not counted as government revenue, (though) in recent years (it has made) a “small concession” by using up to 50% of investment income to fund special transfers”. The writer also notes that since the government is starting FY 08 with a larger surplus as a base, next year’s fiscal balance will also be stronger, assuming budgeted increases in revenue and expenditure. Coming back to his initial question of whether there would actually be a deficit in FY 2008, he writes: “A betting man could do worse than place a large wager on actual revenues comfortably exceeding the Budget’s projections next year too!”"
CitiGroup Economist Kit Wei Seng : "the GST hike may have been unnecessary or could have been delayed or staggered…the GST hike has contributed to the unexpected bulge in government revenues, while exacerbating inflation pressures”
2) Isn't the true objective of public housing to maintain an affordable alternative for Singaporeans to get a roof above their heads? But when even the middle class find it hard pressed to afford it. Like when the rising costs are dispropotionate to the wages that most people are receiving, or when the spending power is actually shrinking.
3) Quote from PAP MP
"HR managers in many companies are not receptive. Some have become used to hiring foreign workers in the days when we had a tight labour market. They refuse to consider new options and just want to carry on with what they are comfortable with."
Govt has not given any form of incentive to hire locals first. I'm a project manager and when I go to the resource manager to ask for engineers, the candidates were all foreigners, not even a single one has a face to face interview. All Via teleconference. I ask, no singaporean? he said "<insert nationality> all cheap and good!". I had to go out of my way to find a local candidate thru my own contacts and then refer them to the hiring/resource manager.
4) What, I cannot chose to live near my parents? just looking from a smaller size 4 room flat near my parents also near impossible. Re-sale market I'm talking about here. People asking for exhobitant fees in cash.
But its refresing to see boths sides of the subject being thrown here. (Which is why I started the thread =P)in the context of this thread, the 2% gst rise should not cause unnecessary alarm to the middle class. as i mentioned, if you live paycheck to paycheck, it doesn't matter if you earn $2k or $20k, you will feel the pinch.
if conventional wisdom prevails that a family breadwinners save a portion(20-40%) of their total salary as savings or investments, life will still pretty much be the same. what you cut back are the wants, e.g. 3 movies a month vs 5 previously, or if you need bigger adjustment, sell your 2litre car for a 1.6l.
As for hiring foreigners, companies do not look for the lowest cost worker to hire. this is a sure fire recipe for business failure. A rationale hirer would look for a combination of a few things, a smart guy, ability to fit in, skill level required and affordability, amongst others. there will be a range of salary that a hirer would be able to afford, and that will include locals and foreigners alike. If the hirer perceived that by paying 20% more for a person who can deliver 50% more productivity, then the choice is clear. always going for the lowest cost is penny wise, pound foolish. I will dread to work for this type of company. your point will apply for job that has little skill required, i.e. pruning trees, or a sweeper.
and if one is house hunting and don't even have a decent amount of money to fork out, say $20-50k on hand, that person have no business house hunting. the same with buying a car with nothing down or $500 down. that person cannot afford a car, period. getting into such debts is what is creating this `cry foul' mentality because the slightest move in the cost of living index will render these people `invalid'.
it's high time we take responsibility for our own lives.
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It is true, public housing is no longer affordable, the sellers want so much cash from $25k to 50 or 60 k, so how to stay near parents
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It is true, public housing is no longer affordable, the sellers want so much cash from $25k to 50 or 60 k, so how to stay near parents
Excuse me..... but tell me this, If you are the owner of the house.... and could ask for $50-$60K in cash (Hot market and all that)..... would you settle for just $25K
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Originally posted by hloc:
Excuse me..... but tell me this, If you are the owner of the house.... and could ask for $50-$60K in cash (Hot market and all that)..... would you settle for just $25K
lol.. very true.
Jiang Tai Kong fishing... u only need 1 bite among the manys.
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public housing has never been afforable even without middlemen sellers...
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sad fact really.... when the government is making effort to keep our wages low as one of the measures to keep business costs low. Rising property prices and rising costs of basic aminities further drive down the spending power of the individual citizen.
They (govt) even thinks that giving companies incentives to hire citizens and PRs first, will have counter productive effects. (Think I heard or read this in the new recently, can't really point my finger on it. help anyone?)
Expecting a young couple to have upto 60K or more in cash, upfront just to get a house near their parents, I think is really tough on them. no to mentioned, they would have spent a small sum on the wedding (This varies greatly, but will be some cost.) The cash the current owner of the flat is asking for. The couple will then have to grapple with renovation costs and then family planning costs... and the govt is btiching about not making enough babies as well... A real catch 22 if I might say so, for lack of a better phrase.
Maybe, just a thought, if HDB was meant to be an affordable form of housing for the majority of people in SG. Should it be further shielded from market forces? Any ideas? There will be reprecussions to the pte property market for sure, but should it be done, if so, how?
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
the C328 aquarium shop at Clementi ave 8 is one classic example. i dont think the owner is JC or Uni grad but his business of selling fishes and aquarium accessories is very successful.
That is coz he is following with us fishkeepers trends and what we want and you know la.....fish keeping is like a poison that slowly eats into you >.<" -
Originally posted by Jontst78:
sad fact really.... when the government is making effort to keep our wages low as one of the measures to keep business costs low. Rising property prices and rising costs of basic aminities further drive down the spending power of the individual citizen.
They (govt) even thinks that giving companies incentives to hire citizens and PRs first, will have counter productive effects. (Think I heard or read this in the new recently, can't really point my finger on it. help anyone?)
Expecting a young couple to have upto 60K or more in cash, upfront just to get a house near their parents, I think is really tough on them. no to mentioned, they would have spent a small sum on the wedding (This varies greatly, but will be some cost.) The cash the current owner of the flat is asking for. The couple will then have to grapple with renovation costs and then family planning costs... and the govt is btiching about not making enough babies as well... A real catch 22 if I might say so, for lack of a better phrase.
Maybe, just a thought, if HDB was meant to be an affordable form of housing for the majority of people in SG. Should it be further shielded from market forces? Any ideas? There will be reprecussions to the pte property market for sure, but should it be done, if so, how?
keeping wages low probably applies mainly to blue collar workers. white collars is not badly as affected.
the topic is middleclass folks getting impacted, are we mixing things up here?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
keeping wages low probably applies mainly to blue collar workers. white collars is not badly as affected.
the topic is middleclass folks getting impacted, are we mixing things up here?
Keeping wages low using the influx of FT is actually more applicable to middle class, regardless blue or white collar (Blue or white collar really is just the nature of the job). Low skilled workers (e.g construction sector) have levies and laws to control hiring. Espeically now with the S pass and employment pass holders are a different matter altogether. No limit on how many a company may hire with no restrictions and no levies. If I remember correctly, they start at mothly wage of S$1800 or somewhere there.
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public housing has never been afforable even without middlemen sellers...
So how much then do you think is affordable
$10 or $20 Friend..... everyone and their grandfather wants to buy at $10 and sell at $10K.....
I got my 4 room HDB in Woodlands at $112K (Year 1999)..... suppose to be worth around $190-$210K on the open market today..... U think I'm complaining about it
A coin have 2 side.... when 1 side face up, the other will face down.... If the prices of HDB goes up, Owners will be happy and Buyers sad..... If the price of HDB goes down, Owners will be sad and Buyers will be happy.
Could you suggest a way to make BOTH side HAPPY
Expecting a young couple to have upto 60K or more in cash, upfront just to get a house near their parents, I think is really tough on them. no to mentioned, they would have spent a small sum on the wedding (This varies greatly, but will be some cost.) The cash the current owner of the flat is asking for. The couple will then have to grapple with renovation costs and then family planning costs... and the govt is btiching about not making enough babies as well... A real catch 22 if I might say so, for lack of a better phrase
Friend.... are you getting marry because you want to or doing it because Govt wants you to.... which is which
Govt also wants us to Vote for them all the time..... but doesn't seems to be working right Then why would you want to have a baby and expect everyone to makeway for you Cause I always thought that most ppl believe that with or without the Govt's help, They would still want their own children..... If got help, easier for the parents. If no help, then I just have to work harder to support MY OWN (NOT GOVT'S) child lor.....
Again the Question is...... if you are the owner of the Flat, and could ask for $60K..... WOULD you ask for less..... YES or NO
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correction; u own the lease, not the flat for HDB.
usually a rule of thumb on housing affordability is 5-8 times the annual wages of a person. however, if u go to places like london, the prices of their houses are far more expensive.
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Isnt the fact that they can ask for 60k a symptom of a larger or deeper issue? No one is blaming the current owner for asking a high price, high cash upfront.
like I said in my previous post
Maybe, just a thought, if HDB was meant to be an affordable form of housing for the majority of people in SG. Should it be further shielded from market forces? Any ideas? There will be reprecussions to the pte property market for sure, but should it be done, if so, how?
Friend.... are you getting marry because you want to or doing it because Govt wants you to.... which is which
Govt also wants us to Vote for them all
the time..... but doesn't seems to be working right Then why would you want to have a baby
and expect everyone to makeway for you Hence the dichotomy, stay or leave. Stay and try and work within this system that PAP indirectly or directly created. Or leave behind loved ones and go to a place and start afresh with a more amicable system, where the individual is valued without significant compromise to the collective, as a whole.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
correction; u own the lease, not the flat for HDB.
usually a rule of thumb on housing affordability is 5-8 times the annual wages of a person. however, if u go to places like london, the prices of their houses are far more expensive.
Absolutely right. Perhaps we should stop using the terms "own a HDB flat" or "buy a HDB flat". totally remove these phrases from our vocabulary. Rather misleading, in a very slow and sinister sort of way :P
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Originally posted by elindra:
That is coz he is following with us fishkeepers trends and what we want and you know la.....fish keeping is like a poison that slowly eats into you >.<"i used to keep red and rtg arowanas.. love them like crazy. funny thing is; after arowana keeping, i tried to keep other type of aquarium fishes, no shiok at all. sure miss those fishy.
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Originally posted by fishbuff:
i used to keep red and rtg arowanas.. love them like crazy. funny thing is; after arowana keeping, i tried to keep other type of aquarium fishes, no shiok at all. sure miss those fishy.
Expensive hobby. I used to keep rays and I have a top grade motoro sp but when the electricity tripped when we were not home they wiped out :(I'm still getting over them coz I kept them when they were like 4" and got them up to 10". KNS was trying to breed them too :(
Now keeping catfishes. Just got a Gulper cat not long ago. Never into Aro.
Anyway re the topic on HDB, it's on lease for 99 yrs but I think leasing a HDB flat for 99 yrs is better than leasing those 99 yr condos :x
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Isnt the fact that they can ask for 60k a symptom of a larger or deeper issue? No one is blaming the current owner for asking a high price, high cash upfront.
like I said in my previous post
Maybe, just a thought, if HDB was meant to be an affordable form of housing for the majority of people in SG. Should it be further shielded from market forces? Any ideas? There will be reprecussions to the pte property market for sure, but should it be done, if so, how?
Friend.... are you getting marry because you want to or doing it because Govt wants you to.... which is which
Govt also wants us to Vote for them all the time..... but doesn't seems to be working right Then why would you want to have a baby and expect everyone to makeway for you Hence the dichotomy, stay or leave. Stay and try and work within this system that PAP indirectly or directly created. Or leave behind loved ones and go to a place and start afresh with a more amicable system, where the individual is valued without significant compromise to the collective, as a whole.
HDB was and is still a affordable form of Housing...... But Not When Buying From Resale Market.... And Not When You Want To Get Good Location....
I brought my HDB at Woodlands when most S'pore consider Woodlands the A** End of S'pore.... too far from town and all that. I got it 'cheap' because most ppl at that time is going for AMK or Bishan..... I endure 1.5 years of 'little problems' like limited shopping and transportion..... But all these are of NO concern to me as long as the flat is cheaper than most places..... A 3 room at AMK cost $200K around that time
If you are lookin for a cheap place to buy house, shouldn't you look for less desire location
Is there a place on Earth where you could get cheap housing at Prime area Sadly Life isn't always 'Happy'..... Not too late to learn this.... it is about picking the best choice out of 2 BAD choice. The system ''MIGHT'' be more amicable elsewhere..... but market forces are the same everywhere..... Fourmrunner - fishbuff - is now living in Aust. Why not try asking him where you could find a dirty cheap house at Prime area in the City......
To Go or to STAY isn't as easy as most fourmrunner claim it is.....
You want to go - Are you sure the other side wants you
You want to go - Are you sure your family members (wife/husband, children) would get used to the life there
You want to go - Are you sure the pay there could support your family (new house, new car, new way of life)
If you are sure that the answer is YES, YES & YES..... then start planning now and put your plan into action..... NOT sit down here and 'Bit*h' about - Why like this, Why like dat.....
Action speaks louder than words my friend.
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I think it's really about managing your money
My husband and I are middle income and we bought a resale flat. Well you can say that we bought our flat 10k below valuation but it still cost 318k for a 4 room flat.
We live far away from our parents so we do not get the rebate from HDB for living close to our parents.
However, because our flat is close to our workplace, we spend less on transport and do not need to buy a car.
We do not think that not owning a car is a loss of face because we feel that we can use our $$ to do more things than to lose it on a car.
Maybe we are considered higher middle income but still I know people who are earning more and struggling to make ends meet.
So really it is about managing your money (And I can still afford to indulge in my hobbies and so can my husband)
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I think it's really about managing your money
My husband and I are middle income and we bought a resale flat. Well you can say that we bought our flat 10k below valuation but it still cost 318k for a 4 room flat.
We live far away from our parents so we do not get the rebate from HDB for living close to our parents.
However, because our flat is close to our workplace, we spend less on transport and do not need to buy a car.
We do not think that not owning a car is a loss of face because we feel that we can use our $$ to do more things than to lose it on a car.
Maybe we are considered higher middle income but still I know people who are earning more and struggling to make ends meet.
So really it is about managing your money (And I can still afford to indulge in my hobbies and so can my husband)
Where I live, it is 20mins on the MRT to my workplace..... And since I work for SMRT... save alot on transportion.
In my view, to own a CAR is the number 1 money killer a S'porean could do..... short of visiting the IR every weekend.
And yes.... managing your money well is the Key to owning your own HOUSE or even a Car.....
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you are rich when you know you have enuf......otherwise, you are always chasing your tail.
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Originally posted by hloc:
HDB was and is still a affordable form of Housing...... But Not When Buying From Resale Market.... And Not When You Want To Get Good Location....
I brought my HDB at Woodlands when most S'pore consider Woodlands the A** End of S'pore.... too far from town and all that. I got it 'cheap' because most ppl at that time is going for AMK or Bishan..... I endure 1.5 years of 'little problems' like limited shopping and transportion..... But all these are of NO concern to me as long as the flat is cheaper than most places..... A 3 room at AMK cost $200K around that time
If you are lookin for a cheap place to buy house, shouldn't you look for less desire location
Is there a place on Earth where you
could get cheap housing at Prime area Sadly Life isn't always 'Happy'..... Not too late to learn this.... it is about picking the best choice out of 2 BAD choice. The system ''MIGHT'' be more amicable elsewhere..... but market forces are the same everywhere..... Fourmrunner - fishbuff - is now living in Aust. Why not try asking him where you could find a dirty cheap house at Prime area in the City......
To Go or to STAY isn't as easy as most fourmrunner claim it is.....
You want to go - Are you sure the other side wants you
You want to go - Are you sure your family members (wife/husband, children) would get used to the life there
You want to go - Are you sure the pay there could support your family (new house, new car, new way of life)
If you are sure that the answer is YES, YES & YES..... then start planning now and put your plan into action..... NOT sit down here and 'Bit*h' about - Why like this, Why like dat.....
Action speaks louder than words my friend.
Which is why I started the subject. Many Middle class could have the mobility to move. Its a talking point, and idea, it may become something more, maybe not.
Like you said, a decision to move is not an easy thing to do. There are still other less tangible factors that would keep someone here, other than the creature comforts. If a decision was based purely on creature comforts, then the decision making will be alot easier wouldn't it? This thread was meant to see both sides of the coin. Can't help but wonder why chose to be confrontational tho. :)
Money management is key, regardless where you go, so its a common dinominator.