Free Tibet!!!!
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Originally posted by Fatum:
so ... you believe, and I quote from your post, that "Dalai Lama is not behind this riot. The riot is planned by someone else."
You do not believe in the official chinese version of the events, that the riots were orchestrated by the "dalai lama clique" then ? ... not surprisingly, I don't put much stock in the pronouncements of that goverment either.
i am not sure I agree with you that the current troubles in tibet has it's roots in Mao's policies, it seems a bit to easy to blame a man long dead for the troubles, but the problem is easily rectified, and I certainly don't agree with you that Buddhism in tibet is protected by the chinese central goverment, or else it will suffer the same fate as buddhism in India, India is the birth place of Buddhism and it is certainly flourishing there, some forumers just made pilgrimages there too ... I'm sure if you take it up at the Buddhism forum, they'll tell you the opposite is true,
but however, the practise of Buddhism in Tibet is no longer free, we now see two different lamas on both sides of the fence, one recognized by the tibetans, another installed by the Chinese goverment ... is the Chinese goverment trying to play Buddha ? ....
one thing I failed to understand before, is why go through all the hassle and trouble of invading and subjugating another country, if it's just for the sake of buffer zones against bigger enemies ? .... I was just arguing with a PRC classmate online yesterday night as I got going here as well ... and he offered me a startling insight, something which i never knew about before .....
You know why China will never set Tibet Free now ? .....
Because of oil ....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1502117.stm
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/natres/oil/China/2001/0905disc.htm
http://www.tew.org/archived/tibet.oil.html
ah ..... see ...... now the penny drops ....... it's not really about historical ownership and what not now ... but really about strategic natural resources ......
btw ... the spratley islands have lots of oil too ....
Yes, I think Wen Jia Bao's statement saying the riot is planned by Dalai Lama is wrong. very clear, isn't it? We should look at everything on case by case basis. You may not like a person for doing certain thing, but if he does a right thing one day, you should agree with it. Likewise, though I agree with China's policy to not intefere in other country's internal affair, at the same time I don't agree on some of their policy. I won't go and start some riot or damage the facilities because of the disagreement.
It doesn't matter blaming a dead person is easy or not. I still think that the current tibet issue is caused by Mao Ze Dong, he spoilt the relationship between China government, the Dalai Lama and tibetans. Unfortunately, the new government has to deal with the problem inherited by Mao. But fortunately, the new government are more open than Mao in many areas.
It is facts that since Yuan dynasty onwards, the central government has been giving a lot of support to the buddhism in tibet. It is also facts that buddhism in India extinct about 1 thousand years after the buddha enter parinirvana. With many reasons, 2 of them are lack of support of king, and invasion from anti-buddhism foreign army. Though buddhism in India was re-established again in last century, but it already loss few hundreds years. Go and search on internet if you want to find out more.Whether Tibet has oil storage or not, it doesn't matter. What I want to say is Tibet was already part of China since long ago. simple.
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Whether Tibet has oil storage or not, it doesn't matter. What I want to say is Tibet was already part of China since long ago. simple.
I agree. Is anyone seriously saying that China will grant Tibet independence even if there had been no oil?
Come on.
Tibet is part of China, this is a fact.
Want to talk about conflicts for oil, there are more obvious and current wars going on for that.
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080320/101829721.html
http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20080320/101769917.html
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the Tibet issue was actually heard in the British parliament
and how the PM Mr Brown wanted to talk to Dalai lama, how brazen can it get when comes to political interfering of China internal politics- kapoh lah!!Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner of France said Tuesday that the European Union should consider punishing China for its crackdown in Tibet with a boycott of the opening ceremony of this summer's Olympic Games in Beijing.
Later in the day, however, he appeared to backtrack from the comments.
Speaking of a boycott of the opening ceremony, Kouchner on Tuesday evening told France-2 television: "We're not in favor of it."
Making a name for themselves at the expense of China, how convenient.
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he Tibet issue was actually heard in the British parliament and how the PM Mr Brown wanted to talk to Dalai lama, how brazen can it get when comes to political interfering of China internal politics- kapoh lah!!
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_expedition_to_Tibet
http://tibet.cn/en/history/tib/t20050309_14950.htm
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200408/07/eng20040807_152183.html
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Tibetan community in S'pore rallies behind Dalai Lama
By Neo Chai Chin, TODAY | Posted: 21 March 2008 0722 hrsPhotos 1 of 1 
Pri Jinpa Gyatso bows in prayer o a picture of the Dalai LamaSINGAPORE: They may not hold a Tibetan passport, and some have never lived in their motherland. But gathered at a meditation centre in Geylang listening to a news podcast downloaded from website Radio Free Asia, their passion for the Tibetan cause is clear.
The calm in Singapore seems a world away from the protests and the Chinese government's crackdown, which have rocked the Himalayan region since last week. Still, Tibetans here have felt the pain and anxiety of their compatriots and this has brought them closer together.
The Tibetan community in Singapore is minute, estimated at 30 to 50 at any one time. Some of them work or study and the rest are lamas (monks) here for a few months.
To outsiders, what makes them Tibetan may be tenuous — some were born in India, some are already Singapore citizens, some have no plans to return to Tibet even if their wish for independence comes true.
But to the group, what makes them Tibetan is clear — their ancestry, Buddhist way of life and common wish to see the return of their spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, to Tibet.
"When we meet, we wish each other well and pray for dialogue between the Dalai Lama and the Chinese, and for peace and freedom in Tibet," said freelance tour agent Pri Jinpa Gyatso, 32.
Mr Jinpa has visited many of the 25 to 30 Tibetan Buddhist centres here in recent days, encouraging prayer sessions for those killed or injured in the crackdown — be they Tibetan or Chinese.
The lamas in Singapore have also been praying for the well-being of those in Tibet. While they place the Dalai Lama, who advocates non-violence, on a sacred pedestal, they empathise with the protesters back home.
"The protesters in Tibet are doing this for their future generations," said Lama Tsewang, 27, who has been in Singapore for two months.
Amid reports of the killing of ethnic Chinese in Lhasa, another Tibetan, a 37-year-old professional, said that the most important issue remained that of Tibet's longstanding struggle for nationhood, or at the very least, autonomy.
Most Tibetans interviewed for this report declined to be identified due to job sensitivities. Mr Jinpa is the de facto "face" of the local Tibetan community.
He met a fellow Tibetan, a teacher, for the first time on Wednesday — they had talked on the phone for a few months, but finally met when both sat down with TODAY for an interview. The two are married to Singaporean women.
The teacher has taken his support online, setting up a blog titled "Truth about the Current Situation in Tibet".
News posted on bhodrangzen.blogspot.com is culled from alternative news sources such as Phayul.com.
"I have been listening to Tibetan radio and I can hear my countrymen calling in … I feel very helpless," said the teacher, 33, who grew up in India.
For many Tibetans, the Dalai Lama is dearer than their lives, said the teacher. But there is some frustration that his way has not worked.
Said the teacher: "Some of us don't understand why (when) someone slaps you, you still show your other cheek."
The Tibetans' frustrations stem from what they consider the lip service that China has paid to their human rights and freedom of worship.
For example, when the Dalai Lama spoke in 2006 about wildlife conservation and told Tibetans not to wear illegal animal furs and skins, the Chinese authorities ordered some Tibetan broadcasters to wear fur-lined traditional clothing.
By nature, Tibetans are a "very easy-going" people, and those in Singapore have integrated well into life here, said the Tibetan teacher. They don't have a particular hangout, and neither are they overly fond of Tibetan food.
"There are some Nepalese that have set up restaurants offering Tibetan dishes here, but I find Tibetan food pretty boring," he said.
The influences of globalisation aside, the desire to spread understanding of Tibetan culture is strong, and may speed up in Singapore as an indirect result of the Tibet riots.
Mr Jinpa mooted the idea of a Tibetan Buddhist Centre last year to spread Buddhism and Tibetan culture, which are inextricably linked. The centre would bring the Tibetan community and like-minded Singaporeans together, through events like the Dalai Lama's birthday celebrations.
And his plans may be realised sooner than expected - with help from an Italian venture capitalist, no less. The venture capitalist, who is based in Singapore, has expressed interest in funding a base for the Tibetan community here.
- TODAY/soShocking isn't it. It is justifiable to kill another enthic group because of their belief. Many of whom who had never set afoot of what they call homeland. And this is from a professional!
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Originally posted by justdoit77:
Yes, I think Wen Jia Bao's statement saying the riot is planned by Dalai Lama is wrong. very clear, isn't it? We should look at everything on case by case basis. You may not like a person for doing certain thing, but if he does a right thing one day, you should agree with it. Likewise, though I agree with China's policy to not intefere in other country's internal affair, at the same time I don't agree on some of their policy. I won't go and start some riot or damage the facilities because of the disagreement.
It doesn't matter blaming a dead person is easy or not. I still think that the current tibet issue is caused by Mao Ze Dong, he spoilt the relationship between China government, the Dalai Lama and tibetans. Unfortunately, the new government has to deal with the problem inherited by Mao. But fortunately, the new government are more open than Mao in many areas.
It is facts that since Yuan dynasty onwards, the central government has been giving a lot of support to the buddhism in tibet. It is also facts that buddhism in India extinct about 1 thousand years after the buddha enter parinirvana. With many reasons, 2 of them are lack of support of king, and invasion from anti-buddhism foreign army. Though buddhism in India was re-established again in last century, but it already loss few hundreds years. Go and search on internet if you want to find out more.Whether Tibet has oil storage or not, it doesn't matter. What I want to say is Tibet was already part of China since long ago. simple.
sigh ... i thought i've been through this frustrating point that one cannot use ancient history as a benchmark already ...
but let's try again, since you come across as a man of reason and less confusion, I hope ...
assorted other independant countries in this modern day and age were under the subjugation of the Chinese empire throughout the various dynaties, vietnam in the han dynasty for example ... (no surprise there, the vietnamese are more culturally similar to us han chinese than the tibetans, their Tet is the equivalent of our chinese new year.)
and I remember taking an ancient civilization class in the Uni and looking at how the Chinese empire moved throughout the ages ... once upon a time, it covered much of what was known as the silk road, all the way past the tien shan mountains (fans of wuxia and hongkong movies would recall the "tian shan tong lau" and all those characters, which is where the name came from) ... including territories that now belongs to other independant countries.
Since China has a legitimate claim on Tibet in your books because of ancient association, or subjugation, whatever ... aren't you saying that China thus has a legitimate claim to all these territories too ? .... vietnam ? ... the pamir mountains ? ... tienshan ? ... pieces of the various tongue twisting twisting "-stans" in west asia ? ... and while China was quite vehement in it's claim on Tibet, how come it was quite willing to enter negotiations with more powerful neighbours over other territorial disputes, like the sino-russian accord which saw China giving up all claims to land north of the black dragon river ? ... historically past of the Chinese empire ? .... a case of respecting the strong but bullying the weak ? .... perhaps small wonder that even the followers of the Dalai Lama got pissed off with his pacifist stand then eh ? ..
but let's move away from China, else I'd be accused of being unfairly biased again. Let's go west to Europe, and visit some of those small charming little European countries. Europe is an interesting study, through-out the ages, assorted pieces of territories were consolidated, absorbed, and changed hands among various empires ... take Poland for example .... and finland ... Belgium ... or greece ... they were all screwed over at various points of their history by other countries, ... do you think it's reasonable for Turkey to lay claim to greece today ? ... or for the french or dutch to lay claim on belgium ? .... or for the germans or russians to screw the poles over again ? ..... don't you think it's therefore unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet based on such excuses then ? ...
the lists goes on ... The Thai empire once extended down to the current northern malayan states also (infact, if you read the Thai English newspapers, they still refer to kelantan and terrengganu by their Thai names, something which struck me when I first came across it) ... much of Cambodia too, was part of today's Thailand .... you see them playing the imperialist game ? ...
my point ... is simple too ... it is simply unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet, pure and simple .... as I have shown, ancient history is a poor excuse for current day imperialism, through out much of China's own history, she too has been subjugated and bullied by and conquered by other countries, (incidently, both the Yuan and Qing dynasties, which you pointed out as examples, were dynasties founded by foreign invaders, the mongols and the Manchus .... perhaps, then, Tibet's association with China then, could be said to be actually slaves belonging to the same foreign master then ? ... no ? ...
we are supposed to be living in an enlightened age ... where such imperialist behaviour should already be past ... and don't go deflecting and pointing fingers at uncle sam in today's Iraq ... Traditional chinese upbringing would teach you to learn from the good, not the bad ... "Hao de bu xue, xue huai de" is not acceptable, nor should it be an excuse for one to do something similar ... if someone else goes around robbing, raping, and plundering, can you use it as an excuse to do like wise ? ... shouldn't it be something shameful ? ... (14th time i am repeating this .... everyone has chosen to ignore all this, again and again ... but you watch, a few posts later, another "tee nau" will post the same old "see ! .. uncle sam is doing it too !" or something similar ... ) .... or has such traditional chinese values been replaced by something more sinister, like blind, rabid racial and cultural chauvinism ? ....
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or has such traditional chinese values been replaced by something more sinister, like blind, rabid racial and cultural chauvinism ? ....
You keep talking about "cultural chauvinism", may I know what exactly do you mean by that term and how it is connected with the Tibetan issue?
Please type clearly, so that everybody can understand.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
sigh ... i thought i've been through this frustrating point that one cannot use ancient history as a benchmark already ...
but let's try again, since you come across as a man of reason and less confusion, I hope ...
assorted other independant countries in this modern day and age were under the subjugation of the Chinese empire throughout the various dynaties, vietnam in the han dynasty for example ... (no surprise there, the vietnamese are more culturally similar to us han chinese than the tibetans, their Tet is the equivalent of our chinese new year.)
and I remember taking an ancient civilization class in the Uni and looking at how the Chinese empire moved throughout the ages ... once upon a time, it covered much of what was known as the silk road, all the way past the tien shan mountains (fans of wuxia and hongkong movies would recall the "tian shan tong lau" and all those characters, which is where the name came from) ... including territories that now belongs to other independant countries.
Since China has a legitimate claim on Tibet in your books because of ancient association, or subjugation, whatever ... aren't you saying that China thus has a legitimate claim to all these territories too ? .... vietnam ? ... the pamir mountains ? ... tienshan ? ... pieces of the various tongue twisting twisting "-stans" in west asia ? ... and while China was quite vehement in it's claim on Tibet, how come it was quite willing to enter negotiations with more powerful neighbours over other territorial disputes, like the sino-russian accord which saw China giving up all claims to land north of the black dragon river ? ... historically past of the Chinese empire ? .... a case of respecting the strong but bullying the weak ? .... perhaps small wonder that even the followers of the Dalai Lama got pissed off with his pacifist stand then eh ? ..
but let's move away from China, else I'd be accused of being unfairly biased again. Let's go west to Europe, and visit some of those small charming little European countries. Europe is an interesting study, through-out the ages, assorted pieces of territories were consolidated, absorbed, and changed hands among various empires ... take Poland for example .... and finland ... Belgium ... or greece ... they were all screwed over at various points of their history by other countries, ... do you think it's reasonable for Turkey to lay claim to greece today ? ... or for the french or dutch to lay claim on belgium ? .... or for the germans or russians to screw the poles over again ? ..... don't you think it's therefore unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet based on such excuses then ? ...
the lists goes on ... The Thai empire once extended down to the current northern malayan states also (infact, if you read the Thai English newspapers, they still refer to kelantan and terrengganu by their Thai names, something which struck me when I first came across it) ... much of Cambodia too, was part of today's Thailand .... you see them playing the imperialist game ? ...
my point ... is simple too ... it is simply unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet, pure and simple .... as I have shown, ancient history is a poor excuse for current day imperialism, through out much of China's own history, she too has been subjugated and bullied by and conquered by other countries, (incidently, both the Yuan and Qing dynasties, which you pointed out as examples, were dynasties founded by foreign invaders, the mongols and the Manchus .... perhaps, then, Tibet's association with China then, could be said to be actually slaves belonging to the same foreign master then ? ... no ? ...
we are supposed to be living in an enlightened age ... where such imperialist behaviour should already be past ... and don't go deflecting and pointing fingers at uncle sam in today's Iraq ... Traditional chinese upbringing would teach you to learn from the good, not the bad ... "Hao de bu xue, xue huai de" is not acceptable, nor should it be an excuse for one to do something similar ... if someone else goes around robbing, raping, and plundering, can you use it as an excuse to do like wise ? ... shouldn't it be something shameful ? ... (14th time i am repeating this .... everyone has chosen to ignore all this, again and again ... but you watch, a few posts later, another "tee nau" will post the same old "see ! .. uncle sam is doing it too !" or something similar ... ) .... or has such traditional chinese values been replaced by something more sinister, like blind, rabid racial and cultural chauvinism ? ....
When a country occupy a piece of land for more than 30 years without dispute and claim from other country, then this piece land is considered belongs to the occupier.
Tibet is part of China for abt thousand years already, if you still think that it is not part of china, then I really nothing to say.
Yes, Vietnam, Heilong jiang was also part of China last time. But the Qing dynasty was too weak and stupid and lost it to the foreign invaders. Shame on. But I am sure they won't allow the same history to repeat in Tibet.
That's why sometimes I feel really funny when people talk about china's threat. China since opium war keep on losing lands and lives to nearby country like Russia, Japan before and during world war 2. But those western democratic terrorists still think that they should lose more land.fainted.
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Well you got to understand PRC is very much similar to SG. The media is highly controlled by the CCP and foreign media has no access to Tibet to report on the first hand situation, while reporters are also denied the rights to travel to the place. The CCP is also eager to push the blame to Dalai and has issued the classic all time favorite explanation “This is an isolated minor situation that is le by individual that harbor desire to cause unrest in the society.” You got to understand what you read and hear from China is very much filtered by the CCP and the CCP has always manage to find ways to taichi the problems away. Just like our mediacorp and PAP have always push blames on SG’s problems to the opposition, globalization and CSJ. The CCP has taken pains to paint the image that they are the victims of an evil plot by Dalai, but they have been hiding many reality from the world. Just like the Americans dun like to talk about Abu Gharib.
A few days ago, I read from Lian he zao bao about an article regarding the Tibet issue. Just in case you think this article is written by some foreigners out to smear PRC’s reputation, the article is written by a PRC political analyst, a professor, that has extensive research on such issues. He said that the main problem of the Tibet issue is only partly caused by Dalai. No doubt PRC has made extensive upgrades of infrastructure to Tibet and built roads to Tibet, only a small popl of ppl esp. the higher echelon ppl get to enjoy these fruits of success. Like other parts of PRC, the social disparity is increasing and this is further worsen by the fact that the CCP is allowing large influx of ethnical Hans to enter Tibet, thus this causes a lot of racial unhappiness. The Hans are better off than the ethnical Tibetian in terms of economy and social status, thus this further creates unhappiness. Lastly, it is the PRC forced “sino-tisation” of Tibet that really make the problem reach the ante and cause all these riots.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
all this, again and again ... but you watch, a few posts later, another "tee nau" will post the same old "see ! .. uncle sam is doing it too !" or something similar ... ) .... or has such traditional chinese values been replaced by something more sinister, like blind, rabid racial and cultural chauvinism ? ....
Dont' know what ancient civilization class you attended, Tian Shan is right inside China current xinjiang province, how come China has not legitimate right to claim?
you are confused, partly due to you ignorance of history, thus disrespect for history. Unless you have some other argument you can present, it is a waste of time arguing with you. But just out of curiosity, what is this cultural chauvinism are you talking about?
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Originally posted by Fatum:
sigh ... i thought i've been through this frustrating point that one cannot use ancient history as a benchmark already ...
but let's try again, since you come across as a man of reason and less confusion, I hope ...
assorted other independant countries in this modern day and age were under the subjugation of the Chinese empire throughout the various dynaties, vietnam in the han dynasty for example ... (no surprise there, the vietnamese are more culturally similar to us han chinese than the tibetans, their Tet is the equivalent of our chinese new year.)
and I remember taking an ancient civilization class in the Uni and looking at how the Chinese empire moved throughout the ages ... once upon a time, it covered much of what was known as the silk road, all the way past the tien shan mountains (fans of wuxia and hongkong movies would recall the "tian shan tong lau" and all those characters, which is where the name came from) ... including territories that now belongs to other independant countries.
Since China has a legitimate claim on Tibet in your books because of ancient association, or subjugation, whatever ... aren't you saying that China thus has a legitimate claim to all these territories too ? .... vietnam ? ... the pamir mountains ? ... tienshan ? ... pieces of the various tongue twisting twisting "-stans" in west asia ? ... and while China was quite vehement in it's claim on Tibet, how come it was quite willing to enter negotiations with more powerful neighbours over other territorial disputes, like the sino-russian accord which saw China giving up all claims to land north of the black dragon river ? ... historically past of the Chinese empire ? .... a case of respecting the strong but bullying the weak ? .... perhaps small wonder that even the followers of the Dalai Lama got pissed off with his pacifist stand then eh ? ..
but let's move away from China, else I'd be accused of being unfairly biased again. Let's go west to Europe, and visit some of those small charming little European countries. Europe is an interesting study, through-out the ages, assorted pieces of territories were consolidated, absorbed, and changed hands among various empires ... take Poland for example .... and finland ... Belgium ... or greece ... they were all screwed over at various points of their history by other countries, ... do you think it's reasonable for Turkey to lay claim to greece today ? ... or for the french or dutch to lay claim on belgium ? .... or for the germans or russians to screw the poles over again ? ..... don't you think it's therefore unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet based on such excuses then ? ...
the lists goes on ... The Thai empire once extended down to the current northern malayan states also (infact, if you read the Thai English newspapers, they still refer to kelantan and terrengganu by their Thai names, something which struck me when I first came across it) ... much of Cambodia too, was part of today's Thailand .... you see them playing the imperialist game ? ...
my point ... is simple too ... it is simply unreasonable for China to lay claim to Tibet, pure and simple .... as I have shown, ancient history is a poor excuse for current day imperialism, through out much of China's own history, she too has been subjugated and bullied by and conquered by other countries, (incidently, both the Yuan and Qing dynasties, which you pointed out as examples, were dynasties founded by foreign invaders, the mongols and the Manchus .... perhaps, then, Tibet's association with China then, could be said to be actually slaves belonging to the same foreign master then ? ... no ? ...
we are supposed to be living in an enlightened age ... where such imperialist behaviour should already be past ... and don't go deflecting and pointing fingers at uncle sam in today's Iraq ... Traditional chinese upbringing would teach you to learn from the good, not the bad ... "Hao de bu xue, xue huai de" is not acceptable, nor should it be an excuse for one to do something similar ... if someone else goes around robbing, raping, and plundering, can you use it as an excuse to do like wise ? ... shouldn't it be something shameful ? ... (14th time i am repeating this .... everyone has chosen to ignore all this, again and again ... but you watch, a few posts later, another "tee nau" will post the same old "see ! .. uncle sam is doing it too !" or something similar ... ) .... or has such traditional chinese values been replaced by something more sinister, like blind, rabid racial and cultural chauvinism ? ....
Dont' know what ancient civilization classes you attended. Tianshan is right inside China in the Xinjiang province. Not only are you confused about history, you have no idea about china geography as well. really no use arguing with you.
But for the sake of curiosity, please explain what do you mean by cultural chauvinism, a term you used on me and so many other people so many times.
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The issue is not about who is right and who is wrong.
The issue is about who is strong and who is weak.
In this instance, it is about China (the next superpower) vs Tibet (dunno what you want to term them).
The Chinese will never ever let Tibet go independent. Anybody try to stop the Chinese, they'll start a war. Serious.
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Europe is today united into a big family. This is the new reality. This is a necessity for Tibet as well because it is a land-locked country which on its own will be hard to survive. Tibet has been part of China for centuries and there is no reason for any imperialists to want to interfere and break it up.
This is because other than their own imagination the Chinese today is doing everything possible to bring about economic prosperity for all of China.
These Western Imperialists should stop trying to destabilise China while promoting their own harmony, unity and economic union as they have done with their own neighbors.
If there is a rebellion by the Aborigines in US or Australia to break away or create an independent state will the Polosi and Gordon Browns speak the same language as they have spoken against China.
So beware of Westerners' secret imperialist agendas and their big plot going on against China.
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In this instance, it is about China (the next superpower)
China is too weak to be a superpower. A great power or regional hegemon yes, but global superpower like USA, I don't think so.
USA will be the first and last global hegemonial superpower.
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to be frank, tibet should belong to china. From a history perspective, tibet is only independent for a slight time when china went through internal war and british involvement. So china determine his country size is before his internal war which to a certain extent is not wrong.
When china invade tibet, they also do not use force but sign a document through dialogue... (in a certain way tis is true). Compared with british invasion the casualties r much lesser...
In recent time china had spent a lot of resources on tibet to modernise it. They even build a fast train to tibet at a high cost. Talking about ruling, they did not do anything bad to tibetians.
Recent turn of events is also beyond one expectation, but I do not disagree with china hard stance. The situation is spiralling out of control and the people have become racial discriminating one another.
The only thing I hate is china trying to lie and cover up wat happened. I think tat is immature, counter productive and spoil his own reputation.
Talking about revolution and over throwing the government... u do it when u got a good reason to... so far china is treating tibetian better than their own people. And china is trying to improve over the years... They have a sudden jump in income and sudden improvement in standard of living. They have access to better education and better facilities and better transport links. They have some degree of autonomy over their own region as well. Now... why should they revolt ? Why should they use force on innocent chinese stall holder or innocent chinese on the street ?
Lets say the native american Red indians or australian arbogines gang together and start to loot the caucasians stalls and kill their people and fight with the authorities... wat do u think the american or australian will do ? If u ask me, british is worse in determing whose countries belong to who. Is america belonging to red indian or the caucasians ? Is australia occupation legal ?
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Dont' know what ancient civilization classes you attended. Tianshan is right inside China in the Xinjiang province. Not only are you confused about history, you have no idea about china geography as well. really no use arguing with you.
But for the sake of curiosity, please explain what do you mean by cultural chauvinism, a term you used on me and so many other people so many times.
the tien shan mountain range of today lies in kazakhstan and krygzystan (god, what a tongue twister), and, partially inside the Xinjiang province ... all that used to belong to china in ancient times .... but certainly not so today .... I wonder what kind of maps you've been looking at ... does it show the whole of the tien shan mountain range to be INSIDE chinese territory ? ..... what kind of maps you're looking at ? .... offiicial chinese maps ? ... care to tell me where the spratley islands and the south china sea belongs to in the map too ? ....
such kind of thinking is what I mean by the term chauvinism, when you try to justify the unjustifiable regardless of the reason, simply because of a blind pride in the rights of in a certain country, in a certain group of people .... if it's not pride, tell me why you're still persist in using ancient history to justify the annexation of Tibet, when I have have shown you, that a much vaster swat of territories all used to belong to China in the past .... or do you think China has a right to these territories too ? ... to pieces of kazakhstan and krygstan, to pieces of India, Bhutan, Korea, Vietnam, and much of the littorial waters of the phillipines, malaysia, Brunei, vietnam .... ? Clearly, it is unthinkable, no ? .,... so why the double standards for Tibet ? ...
also, past subjugations by another nation is clearly not the legitimate reason for laying claim to another country .. as i have pointed out, what about countries like Belgium, Poland, Greece, etc, do you think france, holland, germany, russia, turkey, all have a claim to these countries ? ... mind you, they were farked over and ruled by various other peoples in their past too .... some of the malay states used to pay tribute and acknowledge overlordship to the king of Siam, so in your books, these states actually belong to Thailand ? .... What drives you then ? .. if not racial chauvinism ? ... you keep repeating and repeating over and over again that tibet was long part of china because of ancient history ... i have shown you that your arguments for the legitimacy of China's claim over tibet is flawed and untenable today again and again.
Or maybe you were just confused ... nevermind the fact that you first disputed any claims of killings in tibet, asking me if I saw it personally, and then disputing the pictures of dead tibetans I showed you ... and then pointing fingers at tibetan violence in turn, and then, inexplicably ...
implying support for Tibetan independence, after you've argued that Tibet belongs to China ...
I quote:
"If the riots in China now is a coordinated effort to free tibet, like what Sun Yet San did in overthrowing the Qing regime, once order given, every single tibatan rise up and is prepared to die to free tibet, there is a reason for outsiders to show support."
c'mon .. just say it out ... say that you support them ... support their rights to be free .... put aside your ethnic pride and think ...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
the tien shan mountain range of today lies in kazakhstan and krygzystan (god, what a tongue twister), and, partially inside the Xinjiang province ... all that used to belong to china in ancient times .... but certainly not so today .... I wonder what kind of maps you've been looking at ... does it show the whole of the tien shan mountain range to be INSIDE chinese territory ? ..... what kind of maps you're looking at ? .... offiicial chinese maps ? ... care to tell me where the spratley islands and the south china sea belongs to in the map too ? ....
such kind of thinking is what I mean by the term chauvinism, when you try to justify the unjustifiable regardless of the reason, simply because of a blind pride in the rights of in a certain country, in a certain group of people .... if it's not pride, tell me why you're still persist in using ancient history to justify the annexation of Tibet, when I have have shown you, that a much vaster swat of territories all used to belong to China in the past .... or do you think China has a right to these territories too ? ... to pieces of kazakhstan and krygstan, to pieces of India, Bhutan, Korea, Vietnam, and much of the littorial waters of the phillipines, malaysia, Brunei, vietnam .... ? Clearly, it is unthinkable, no ? .,... so why the double standards for Tibet ? ...
also, past subjugations by another nation is clearly not the legitimate reason for laying claim to another country .. as i have pointed out, what about countries like Belgium, Poland, Greece, etc, do you think france, holland, germany, russia, turkey, all have a claim to these countries ? ... mind you, they were farked over and ruled by various other peoples in their past too .... some of the malay states used to pay tribute and acknowledge overlordship to the king of Siam, so in your books, these states actually belong to Thailand ? .... What drives you then ? .. if not racial chauvinism ? ... you keep repeating and repeating over and over again that tibet was long part of china because of ancient history ... i have shown you that your arguments for the legitimacy of China's claim over tibet is flawed and untenable today again and again.
Or maybe you were just confused ... nevermind the fact that you first disputed any claims of killings in tibet, asking me if I saw it personally, and then disputing the pictures of dead tibetans I showed you ... and then pointing fingers at tibetan violence in turn, and then, inexplicably ...
implying support for Tibetan independence, after you've argued that Tibet belongs to China ...
I quote:
"If the riots in China now is a coordinated effort to free tibet, like what Sun Yet San did in overthrowing the Qing regime, once order given, every single tibatan rise up and is prepared to die to free tibet, there is a reason for outsiders to show support."
c'mon .. just say it out ... say that you support them ... support their rights to be free .... put aside your ethnic pride and think ...
Since when were kazakhstan and krygzystan part of China? Which dynasty? There were once occupied by the Mongols who also conquered China and form the Yuan Dynasty in China. No Chinese government ever tried to claim that as part of China. They later became part of the USSR.
What are the vast territories that belong to ancient China? Pieces of India, Bhutan, Korea, Vietnam? Which books did you read? Since when did China ever occupy Bhutan and Korea? China ruled Vietnam for over thousand years but they recognized the sovereignty of Vietnam and even fought with Vietnam against the French and American. There is dispute with India over some territories and they even went to war for that in recent history. China claims what they believe is theirs, recognize what are not theirs. And what about “the littorial waters of the phillipines, malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam…”? The more you talk, the more you shows your ignorance.
Fatum, you have no idea what you are talking about. Better read the posts from everybody else on this forum. Actually who are you supporting? Even the dalai lama in exile wants to talk, only the mobsters, and you, are still kbkb.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Since when were kazakhstan and krygzystan part of China? Which dynasty? There were once occupied by the Mongols who also conquered China and form the Yuan Dynasty in China. No Chinese government ever tried to claim that as part of China. They later became part of the USSR.
What are the vast territories that belong to ancient China? Pieces of India, Bhutan, Korea, Vietnam? Which books did you read? Since when did China ever occupy Bhutan and Korea? China ruled Vietnam for over thousand years but they recognized the sovereignty of Vietnam and even fought with Vietnam against the French and American. There is dispute with India over some territories and they even went to war for that in recent history. China claims what they believe is theirs, recognize what are not theirs. And what about “the littorial waters of the phillipines, malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam…”? The more you talk, the more you shows your ignorance.
Fatum, you have no idea what you are talking about. Better read the posts from everybody else on this forum. Actually who are you supporting? Even the dalai lama in exile wants to talk, only the mobsters, and you, are still kbkb.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:Since when were kazakhstan and krygzystan part of China? Which dynasty? There were once occupied by the Mongols who also conquered China and form the Yuan Dynasty in China. No Chinese government ever tried to claim that as part of China. They later became part of the USSR.
What are the vast territories that belong to ancient China? Pieces of India, Bhutan, Korea, Vietnam? Which books did you read? Since when did China ever occupy Bhutan and Korea? China ruled Vietnam for over thousand years but they recognized the sovereignty of Vietnam and even fought with Vietnam against the French and American. There is dispute with India over some territories and they even went to war for that in recent history. China claims what they believe is theirs, recognize what are not theirs. And what about “the littorial waters of the phillipines, malaysia, Brunei, Vietnam…”? The more you talk, the more you shows your ignorance.
Fatum, you have no idea what you are talking about. Better read the posts from everybody else on this forum. Actually who are you supporting? Even the dalai lama in exile wants to talk, only the mobsters, and you, are still kbkb.
ah .... so the yuans were a foreigners, and thus what they conquered during that time do not count at part of China's ? ... what about the qing's then ? .... were they not a "foreign dynasty" too ? ... remember it was you who said that kangxi sent in two military expeditions to drive out the mongols in tibet ? where previously, tibet was an independant kingdom who got their arse invaded by the mongols...... kangxi, one of the famous Manchu Qing emperors ...... How come what the Yuan dynasty's got is not counted, but the Qing's counted ? .... double talk again ? ...
and then you said ...
"China ruled Vietnam for over thousand years but they recognized the sovereignty of Vietnam and even fought with Vietnam against the French and American."
ah ... true of course ... which is precisely why i said, it's double standards on China's part, and yours too, first, you said that tibet was part of China because of legitimacy of historicla rule (setting aside your already contradicting stance I pointed out in the top paragraph) .... but now, you said China ruled vietnam for over thousand years but they recognizes the sovereignty of vietnam ? .. hmmmm .... hypocrisy ? .... double standards ? ... selective intepretation ? ... confusion on your part ? ...
so now you ask me which books did I read... like you asked me where did I see any protesters shot in tibet previously ? ... would you like to go read about mount baekdu (aka chang bai shan) in Korea, would you like to read about recent incursions by the PLA into disputed territories in Bhutan ? ... as for vietnam, what territory ? ... Vietnam Indeed ! .... please read your own sentence in blue above you confused fellow ! ... it's amazing that you can contradict yourself in the same post, in the same paragraph, in two consecutive sentences ! ... did you think ? .... who really appears to have no idea what he's talking about ?
and littorial waters ? ... suddenly, you don't remember the spratley islands ? .... you mentioned something about fighting it out in the courts before .....
go chew on all that now ... slowly ...
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ah .... so the yuans were a foreigners, and thus what they conquered during that time do not count at part of China's ?
Most historians don't consider the Mongol Yuan as a chinese dynasty.
China at the time was a part of the Mongol empire, not Mongol empire part of China.
Like Iraq is now considered a client state of USA, not USA a client state of Iraq.
Fatum, you seem to have a limited knowledge of chinese history, see this site:
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=history%20of%20china%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts
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Here are some thoughts about why SG should speak up against PRC action.
Tibet is part of China.
It is China's internal affairs.
As long as there is no wanton violence being committed there, no one has the right to interfere.
1)
I do believe the notion - because it is an internal affair therefore no one has the right to interfere. – needs to review from time to time the role of statehood.
Look at ASEAN, The non intervention and consensus policy did not bring ASEAN any closer, it didn’t help Myanmar to be part of the international community over the years. Asean fail the people of Myanmar. So we ask ourselves Why do we take the same approach of non intervention and consensus approach towards Tibet? Is it because Tibetan are far away land? and China Web of influent are huge and extensive in Asia.
2
Communist Chinese were trying to consolidate its influence by cannibalizing Tibet’s social identity by systematic infusing Hans Chinese into the city. Every new generation of people will regeneration of ideas, resurgent of identity is a process especially true for Tibetian monk who held the view of purification and Reincarnation. So we might be witnessing the last Civilization of Tibet’s innocent before conforming to the modern society. A lost to your next generation.
3
Transnational conflicts that carry ethnic rivalry undertone create prolong humanitarian disaster in recent years. Rwanda, Balkan, Dafur, Maynmar.
I have yet to read any positive news in recent years on China involvement and influence over Oil states. Darfur, Myanmar now Tibet, Do we keep quiet about China international responsibilities while allowing exploiting natural resources. It has to go hand in hand.
4
A state that has 5000 yrs of history behind them and they are continuously fearful of breakaway Tibet, Taiwan…due to foreign influence. Deployed troops and tanks against its own people and that is Western imperialism? There are more PRC in the US than it ever had. PRC are travelling further gaining status and recognition as a global player but what example it gives to the international communities. Speaking up is not to interfere with China internal affair but it is a reminder of statehood responsibilities to civilians.
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I have yet to read any positive news in recent years on China involvement and influence over Oil states.
What sort of positive influence you want?
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net/Geopolitics___Eurasia/Oil_in_Africa/oil_in_africa.html
I worry more about USA than any other power.
PRC is peaceful foreign policy, USA is aggressive foreign policy.
You are hitting the wrong target.
USA is the troublemaker, not China.
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Some pro-China, some anti-China.
Some pro-USA, some anti-USA.
The solution is obvious.
And by this date, certain members of the Milner Group and of the British Conservative government had reached the fantastic idea that they could kill two birds with one stone by setting Germany and Russia against one another in Eastern Europe.
In this way they felt that the two enemies would stalemate one another, or that Germany would become satisfied with the oil of Rumania and the wheat of the Ukraine.
It never occurred to anyone in a responsible position that Germany and Russia might make common cause, even temporarily, against the West.
Even less did it occur to them that Russia might beat Germany and thus open all Central Europe to Bolshevism...
In order to carry out this plan of allowing Germany to drive eastward against Russia, it was necessary to do three things:
(1) to liquidate all the countries standing between Germany and Russia;
(2) to prevent France from honoring her alliances with these countries; and
(3) to hoodwink the English people into accepting this as a necessary, indeed, the only solution to the international problem...
http://yamaguchy.netfirms.com/cikkek/anglo_12b.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement_of_Hitler
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The Tibetan rioters went to the street, setting shops (specifically targeting shops owned by Han people) on fire, hacking people with axes and generally wrecking other havoc they are capable of. Yet, these people are portrayed as peace-loving, suppressed victims by Western media? Well, I am not surprised. Western media has been habouring an admirable amount of bias towards China for a long time, even at the cost of twisting facts. Yet, they think they have the moral high ground to accuse China of spreading propaganda. I guess they do not know that they live in glass houses themselves.
Western countries colonized most parts of the world, stealing land from natives (USA, Australia...) and inflicting great atrocities in the process. Now they think they have the moral high ground to lecture us on Tibet? Let's set aside whether Tibet should belong to China for the moment. If one's argument is that invasion in itself, regardless of its consequences (good or bad), is unjustified and must be reversed, then naturally white American and Australians must get out of USA and Australia and go back to Europe. After they have retreated from those lands, we could discuss Tibet. Otherwise, please kindly back off.
If one accuses me of diverting attention from the issue, then I must ask this simple question: If white Americans are living in a land they illegally stole from native Indians and Han Chinese are living in a land they illegally took from the Tibetans, why does one point fingers at the Chinese but not Americans if the wrong-doing is the same? I am not trying to justify Chinese occupation of Tibet, but singling out one country and ignoring another speaks volumes about one's neutrality, or the lack thereof.
And... it is America that IS throwing its weight around the world, invading other sovereign nations and causing all sorts of friction and animosity. They self-righteously think that their ideology is superior to others and thus they aggressively export and impose their systems on other countries. Those who resist this ideological assimilation are punished one way or the other. And why is someone accusing China of chauvinism instead?
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The rioters in Tibet are no freedom fighters. They are mere hooligans and criminals who slaughter innocent civilians, burn and destroy private and public property. Rather than deserving of support, they should be arrested and made to face the full force of the law. China must protect the lives and property of all its citizens.
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There are claims that the early Tibetans were immigrants from other parts of China.
Tibet was part of the vast Mongol empire. Then the Ming dynasty took over the reign, followed by the Manchu Dynasty.
Subsequently, the PRC replaced the Manchu dynasty and inherited the right to rule Tibet. How can China invade her own territory Tibet?