Free Tibet!!!!
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So now I know Comrade Deathbait isnt Chinese at all.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
funny you said the tibetans are sucking it up .... what do you call what we're seeing in the news then ? ... sucking it up ? ...
and your examples of cultural mergers raises contradictions ... why was widow burning, etc outlawed ? ... was it because of the absorption of another culture ? ... or bringing it in line with universal values ? ....
you still haven't answered my question, because it used to be done this way, does it make it right now ? .... once upon a time, in the eyes of western powers, it was alright to send gunboats up chinese rivers and to offload opium onto the chinese ... does it make it right now ? ... hong kong was taken over not just decades, but more than a CENTURY ago ... why was it right for the chinese to demand it back ? ... after all, the british created a functioning and prosperous society there didn't they ? ....
so why don't you just come out and say it, that you're saying it's right because it's china, and china is powerful, and there's nothing anyone can do a damm thing about it, and you're saying that whoever has the most guns and arms wins .... instead of crowing about the winds of change and the passage of history and cultures being absorbed by another ....
you still haven't answered me about the Iraq-kuwait thingy yet btw ... or the Singapore question ... or you're someone who, if Singapore gets invaded by a foreign power, would hang the nation's flag on his balcony the day after the fall ? ....
Sometimes arguing with you people here is like arguing with someone who doesn't understand the language.
1) Disapproval with the current rule does not make the current rule any less legit. I once again quote the riots in the early days of Singapore. Does that make our country any less legal? America faces tons of violent protests. Should we save it from itself then?
2) lol at your self-contradiction with the widow burning issue. Universal values? These are simply imported cultures merging with another. For some cultures, it was ok to do certain stuff. After merging with another, it was no longer ok. This is a new culture. Cultures change. They merge. They evolve. And they die. Universal values indeed. Lol. If they were indeed universal, then by defination, they would have already been in place long ago. They were obviously imported crumbs of a foreign culture.
3) Brush up on History. Hong Kong always belonged to China. It was ceded as part of an agreement to the British. But this always had a time limit. It was a lease, not a full fledged invasion. When the time was over...of course it was right for China to demand it back.
4) Commercial trade is not a culture. Let's not be silly. I never answered this question because it's irrelevant.
5) I'm most amused that you think I'm pro-chinese to the point of fanatism. You on the other hand, I am most convinced are anti-chinese to that point. It's pretty curious where you drew your conclusion from. You gained all that insight from me from my statement pointing out that the dalai lama wants violence? Bravo, but hardly accurate.
6) Ahh, inciting patriotism. That's a pretty silly argument. Of course I'm not going to be happy about invasion, and neither, I would imagine, would the kuwaitiis. But I'm going to be pretty ok about it if all my life, I was born a malaysian, years after the invasion has occurred and settled. I imagine the majority of "tibetians" feel the same way. I must remind you it HAS been 60 years.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"and to bring up Singapore is a stupid example ... maybe your ancestors came here as invaders, but I'm quite sure mine came here as peaceful peasant farmers under the british, before we coalesced and emerged as a nation ..."
Yeah, coalesce and emerge as a nation. Without bloodshed. By your reasoning, Singapore should have fought a war of independence (and lost) if Malaysia didnt agree to secession.
Please read my thread carefully - I dont sanction whats has happened to the Tibetians because the Westerners has committed similar atrocities in the past. But the Communist Party of China can always point to them and use them as an excuse. And they can also apologize 150 years later. What benefits does total independence bring to a landlocked, mountainous region which ultimately depends on China for trade? I dont believe in cultural genocide has to happen - the Miao people still preserve their languages, customs and etc. as do other non Han minorities.
My ancestors came as traders and not as some peasant farming an island but lets not go there.
so just because a country doesn't appear to be a viable economic entity, it's reason enough for it to be subsumed by another ? .... Singapore didn't appear to be a very viable economic entity right after our independence too ..... should we have been absorbed back into malaysia, or be taken over by indonesia ? to put aside the circumstances of our own independence first ...
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"I have news for you uncle. We DID impose our ways on the malays. You see the temples and churches? The malays didn't wake up one day and decide to build them for fun. We came in and we DID change things. And that's all that matters. The native malays lost a culture and gained a new one. We are currently living in it."
And all the mosques have disappeared right. Funny you mentioned CHURCHES. Arent they introduced by Western missionaries? Since when the native Malays stopped practising ISLAM and stopped speaking Malay?
"you still haven't answered me about the Iraq-kuwait thingy yet btw ... or the Singapore question ... or you're someone who, if Singapore gets invaded by a foreign power, would hang the nation's flag on his balcony the day after the fall ? ...."
Good question - why dont you ask the other 3 (+1) million people not just the elites in charge? Its a collective thing.
just one answer.
The Temples in Tibet are still there right? Good. According to you, as long as the temples(mosques in Singapore) are still there, everything is just peachy.
btw, caucasians are one of the 4 major races in singapore. remember? Or do you assume the only impact on culture here came from us chinese? My aren't you full of yourself.
Cultural genoxide doesn't HAVE to happen. But it inevitably happens when a culture interacts with another. If you think the Miao culture has not changed a single bit in it's decades of interaction with the Han one, I fear you are misguided.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
so just because a country doesn't appear to be a viable economic entity, it's reason enough for it to be subsumed by another ? .... Singapore didn't appear to be a very viable economic entity right after our independence too ..... should we have been absorbed back into malaysia, or be taken over by indonesia ? to put aside the circumstances of our own independence first ...
a touch of humor here.
Trust me, if Singapore didn't find a way to succeed back then, we would be PRAYING for malaysia to take us back.
Or do you really think prayers will really bring manna from the heavens?=)
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"so just because a country doesn't appear to be a viable economic entity, it's reason enough for it to be subsumed by another ?"
Not that should be a reason but vice versa because a region is a viable economic entity doesnt mean it should be independent (like California for example). The Dalai Lama does not want independence at all but greater autonomy I am guessing for the same pramagtic reasons.
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Originally posted by deathbait:
Sometimes arguing with you people here is like arguing with someone who doesn't understand the language.
1) Disapproval with the current rule does not make the current rule any less legit. I once again quote the riots in the early days of Singapore. Does that make our country any less legal? America faces tons of violent protests. Should we save it from itself then?
2) lol at your self-contradiction with the widow burning issue. Universal values? These are simply imported cultures merging with another. For some cultures, it was ok to do certain stuff. After merging with another, it was no longer ok. This is a new culture. Cultures change. They merge. They evolve. And they die. Universal values indeed. Lol. If they were indeed universal, then by defination, they would have already been in place long ago. They were obviously imported crumbs of a foreign culture.
3) Brush up on History. Hong Kong always belonged to China. It was ceded as part of an agreement to the British. But this always had a time limit. It was a lease, not a full fledged invasion. When the time was over...of course it was right for China to demand it back.
4) Commercial trade is not a culture. Let's not be silly. I never answered this question because it's irrelevant.
5) I'm most amused that you think I'm pro-chinese to the point of fanatism. You on the other hand, I am most convinced are anti-chinese to that point. It's pretty curious where you drew your conclusion from. You gained all that insight from me from my statement pointing out that the dalai lama wants violence? Bravo, but hardly accurate.
6) Ahh, inciting patriotism. That's a pretty silly argument. Of course I'm not going to be happy about invasion, and neither, I would imagine, would the kuwaitiis. But I'm going to be pretty ok about it if all my life, I was born a malaysian, years after the invasion has occurred and settled. I imagine the majority of "tibetians" feel the same way. I must remind you it HAS been 60 years.
1.) so if some invaders came along and take over and rule you, and you're unhappy with the rule, it's wrong to protest against them cos it's "legit" ? ...
2.) okie, nevermind universal values, since it doesn't appear to be in your books ... so, again, in your books, it's alright for one country to invade another, take it over, and 60 years later, say, viola ! ... the second generations, third generations are all citizens of our country, they have no cause for complaints or to agitate for independence, since they were born in "our country"... so any seperatist movement is really "treason"? ... you're basically advocating force and power and the primary determinants of legality isn't it ?
3.) brush up on YOUR history ... Hong kong was ceded in perpetuity ... only the new territories came with a termed lease ... which ran out in 97, at which the chinese demanded the whole colony back ... again, there's the problem .. hong kong was always part of china, of course .... but the brits took a chunk back ... and it's right for the chinese to get it back .... but when the chinese took over one WHOLE OTHER COUNTRY .... you want that other country to suck it up ? ..... wow ... just wow ....
4. where did this come from ? ...
5. that is your own observation sir ... but I observe that if the tibetans were fighting like the chechens against the russians today, maybe they wouldn't have been subjugated ... perhaps because they were hapless, peaceful buddhists, that they got taken over ..
6. you imagine the majority of tibetans feel that way ? ... that because they are the second and third generations born after the invasion .. they'll feel more chinese and not tibetan ? ..... why do you think we're seeing what we're seeing in the news then ? .... are we seeing only old men more than 60 years old throwing rocks at the chinese military vehicles then ? ...
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Comrade Deathbait is probably a Foreign Talent as well (with bad English to boot).
"Btw, caucasians are one of the 4 major races in singapore. remember?"
Wrong. They are the Eurasians. Maybe the new PAP policy is to update to Full blooded Caucasian I dont know. Ask your other comrades.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"so just because a country doesn't appear to be a viable economic entity, it's reason enough for it to be subsumed by another ?"
Not that should be a reason but vice versa because a region is a viable economic entity doesnt mean it should be independent (like California for example). The Dalai Lama does not want independence at all but greater autonomy I am guessing for the same pramagtic reasons.
I believe he once said in an interview that it's highly unlikely for tibet to ever become independant without too much blood shed .... which won't happen of course .... theré's not going to be an armed insurgency ... only PLA troops with machine guns going against rock throwing natives ....
that, I suppose .... makes him a realist .... subtley different from being a pragmatist I would think ....
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oh well ... time to forage for breakfast .......
nice talking to you guys ....;)
btw ... an observation .... I remember reading in an article years back about how a tibetan exile in the US was shocked when he realized how prevalent the attitude as among the chinese disapora that tibet is an integral part of china ....
he wrote about his chagrin at meeting taiwanese chaps in the US (who had no love for the PRC), who told him bluntly that tibet is part of china and were very unsympathetic to his cause ....
I have to admit that my own father also holds the same opinions (chinse high old old boy, what can i say ? ...
)I wonder what's the cause of it ? ....
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"Cultural genoxide doesn't HAVE to happen. But it inevitably happens when a culture interacts with another. If you think the Miao culture has not changed a single bit in it's decades of interaction with the Han one, I fear you are misguided"
Correct. Chinese culture has also changed with interaction with Malay culture. Do the Chinese in Malaysia stop going to temples and stop speaking Chinese?
". you imagine the majority of tibetans feel that way ? ... that because they are the second and third generations born after the invasion .. they'll feel more chinese and not tibetan ? ..... why do you think we're seeing what we're seeing in the news then ? .... are we seeing only old men more than 60 years old throwing rocks at the chinese military vehicles then ?"
Well its due to the violent repression. If they are like the Chinese in Malaysia and Singapore and not resort to force, maybe they wouldnt be.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
Comrade Deathbait is probably a Foreign Talent as well (with bad English to boot).
"Btw, caucasians are one of the 4 major races in singapore. remember?"
Wrong. They are the Eurasians. Maybe the new PAP policy is to update to Full blooded Caucasian I dont know. Ask your other comrades.
my bad.
you are right
it is indeed the eurasians I was talking about.
I'm curious however to see how that detracts my point about churches being relevant.
Also, bad English? Really? Or is that just a knee jerk reaction?
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Originally posted by Fatum:
1.) so if some invaders came along and take over and rule you, and you're unhappy with the rule, it's wrong to protest against them cos it's "legit" ? ...
2.) okie, nevermind universal values, since it doesn't appear to be in your books ... so, again, in your books, it's alright for one country to invade another, take it over, and 60 years later, say, viola ! ... the second generations, third generations are all citizens of our country, they have no cause for complaints or to agitate for independence, since they were born in "our country"... so any seperatist movement is really "treason"? ... you're basically advocating force and power and the primary determinants of legality isn't it ?
3.) brush up on YOUR history ... Hong kong was ceded in perpetuity ... only the new territories came with a termed lease ... which ran out in 97, at which the chinese demanded the whole colony back ... again, there's the problem .. hong kong was always part of china, of course .... but the brits took a chunk back ... and it's right for the chinese to get it back .... but when the chinese took over one WHOLE OTHER COUNTRY .... you want that other country to suck it up ? ..... wow ... just wow ....
4. where did this come from ? ...
5. that is your own observation sir ... but I observe that if the tibetans were fighting like the chechens against the russians today, maybe they wouldn't have been subjugated ... perhaps because they were hapless, peaceful buddhists, that they got taken over ..
6. you imagine the majority of tibetans feel that way ? ... that because they are the second and third generations born after the invasion .. they'll feel more chinese and not tibetan ? ..... why do you think we're seeing what we're seeing in the news then ? .... are we seeing only old men more than 60 years old throwing rocks at the chinese military vehicles then ? ...
1) Let's go over this frustrating point again. 60 years. Recognised for 60 years. That's legit. Malaysia comes and takes over tommorow. That's not....yet. Ok?
2) Your mind really can't take the idea of regime change well can it? Wake up and smell the flowers. Happened many times in the past, and will happen many times in the future. Whether it's right or wrong to revolt is redundant, because both sides have valid reasons. Fortunately, it all becomes a moot point within a couple of decades.
3) My bad then. You will of course realise that just because the British returned Hong Kong does not mean that China has to feel so inclined? These are two seperate decisions made by two seperate governments.
4) From your spectacular gunboats and opium.
5) I think it's best we drop this name calling anyway.
6) Ever wondered why it's usually university students who hold protests? Anyway, hatred breeds hatred. Which I imagine is why the government tried so hard to mix the hans with the tibetiens in the first place. Have you ever watched one of those period dramas where they go : "fan qing fu ming!" and you roll your eyes because you have the gift of hindsight? If you're anything like me, you think it's all an exercise in futility, because hundreds of years in the future(now), no one gives a crap.
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I think you should ask it the Tibetians in Tibet wants to be free. not those in India. Anyway from the look of this incident, the cluprits are the Tibetians.
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Someone here address u as b@stard,in case u dont know that.:)Originally posted by udontknowme:
let's see....i was born in Tomsk, Russia. then i moved to the US when i was 6. then i moved to Singapore when i was 7. On forms i am Canadian. my ancestors are from Portugal and China. i hold 3 passports.
what does that make me?? =D
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Originally posted by deathbait:
1) Let's go over this frustrating point again. 60 years. Recognised for 60 years. That's legit. Malaysia comes and takes over tommorow. That's not....yet. Ok?
2) Your mind really can't take the idea of regime change well can it? Wake up and smell the flowers. Happened many times in the past, and will happen many times in the future. Whether it's right or wrong to revolt is redundant, because both sides have valid reasons. Fortunately, it all becomes a moot point within a couple of decades.
3) My bad then. You will of course realise that just because the British returned Hong Kong does not mean that China has to feel so inclined? These are two seperate decisions made by two seperate governments.
4) From your spectacular gunboats and opium.
5) I think it's best we drop this name calling anyway.
6) Ever wondered why it's usually university students who hold protests? Anyway, hatred breeds hatred. Which I imagine is why the government tried so hard to mix the hans with the tibetiens in the first place. Have you ever watched one of those period dramas where they go : "fan qing fu ming!" and you roll your eyes because you have the gift of hindsight? If you're anything like me, you think it's all an exercise in futility, because hundreds of years in the future(now), no one gives a crap.
my reply to the first point is at the "other" thread ....
2.) again, that doesn't make it right .... why do you think we've been having this argument ..... so far, you have resisted putting things in a black and white morale perspective ... so here goes ... do you think it's right for one country to invade another ? ... simple question ... nevermind the moralizing about "tibetan slave culture " and winds of change and regime change and what not .... it smells like the US invading Iraq and effecting a "regime change" because Iraqis are "being oppressed" when the whole world knows it's really about the oil ... nor does that makes it any more legal, right ? .... and I don't think the Iraqis are any more better under the US now then they were before under saddam, if not worse ... same thing for the tibetans .... and if the "backward tibetan culture" is legitimate pretext for invasion in your eyes, then do you view the colonizing and "assimilation" of other native peoples, like the australian aborogines, and the native americans, in the same way then ? .....
3) I should gently remind you that tibet was a fully functioning, independant, sovereign nation before the 1950 invasion ... with it's own goverment, it's own military, it's own civic structures ... the only difference was that it got taken over ...
6) funny ... my point was that second and third generations tibetans, born under chinese rule, still desires independence and freedom from chinese rule ... they are not, as you imply that you would be in similar circumstances, oblivious or apathetic about being foreign domination ....
finally ... let's see if it can end here ... nevermind about nobody giving a fark 100 years from now, or "shit happens"and what not ..... do you think it's right for one country to invade by force another country ? .... yes ? ... no ? ....
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But i think he is still a communist,maybe from former Soviet Union or some Eastern Europe.Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
So now I know Comrade Deathbait isnt Chinese at all.
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Taiwan is China,Hong Kong is China ,Tibet is China...Singapore is not Chinese yet so why worry about China? Singaporeans have own problems with freedom as it is already.Everybody should channel your energy towards a better Singapore and forget about countries who are able to handle their domestic headaches without foreign intervention.I feel sorry for the Tibetan people but still they are 'Chinese'.
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"it smells like the US invading Iraq and effecting a "regime change" because Iraqis are "being oppressed" when the whole world knows it's really about the oil ... nor does that makes it any more legal, right "
No but the US did so anyway. The Americans are not that worried about international law (I personally disagree with that stance) but more about the price they have to pay in terms of their economy and lives lost.
Let's say Tibet does seceed successfully but with a hostile China imposing an embargo on it - what good does it do for the Tibetians? I mentioned the Miao (Hmong) people who are integrated into China and Chinese society but not fully assimilated - that should be the goal for the Chinese government by granting greater autonomy and recognizing the Dalai Lama's SPIRTUAL authority, as does the Italian government to the Pope in Rome.
The Papal State is an "independent" country recognized by the UN but in reality it owes it existence to Italy.
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Free Tibet?
Why Tibet?
There are so many areas to be "freed".
What about the kurds in Turkey?
What about Basques in Spain?
What about native americans in USA?
Who is going to free them?
I would rather free Palestine from Israeli occupation first, rather than worry about Tibet.
Free Tibet?
Nothing but anti-China propaganda with a hidden political motive behind it.
Drivel.
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Tibet was a sovereign country until China invaded it in 1950's.Same as East Timur.
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There is a debate on that.
The status on that is not clear.
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Tibetans under Chinese rule are heck of a lot better off than the palestinians under Israel. Tell it to the western hypocrites who love to chant human rights through the backend of the western media pigs..
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Tell it to the western hypocrites who love to chant human rights through the backend of the western media pigs..
There is something we can agree on afterall oxford mushroom.
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The China gov should let the Tibetans decide for themselve. Let them vote if they want to remain under China rule or be independent.