Free Tibet!!!!
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Originally posted by t_a_s:
Tibet was a sovereign country until China invaded it in 1950's.Same as East Timur.
Tibet was ruled by emperors for many decades but was invaded by Dzungars, the mongols in 1717. Emperor Kangxi sent two military expedition to drive the mongols out in 1718 and 1720, and installed the 7th Dalai Lama with administrative power in 1751. 1788 and 1791, Tibet was invaded twice by the Nepalese who were repelled by the Qing Government. In 1904, with the decline of the Qing dynasty, the British invaded Tibet forcing a treaty to allow free flow of British and Indian traders into Tibet. Since when tibet was a sovereign country until China invaded it in 1950?
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My friends...
Please stop using the word 'invasion'.This has really bad connotation, and it means u have implicitly swallowed the Western propaganda.
It is the same by labelling someone as a 'terrorist' or 'freedom figther'. One way means u have taken the perspective of one particular side and not objective anymore.
Why not say 'Invasion' ?
My friends, an invasion is when USA troops invade Iraq. It is a clear example when a sovereign country, thousands of miles away, an ocean away, with different race, religion, language, and history, is invaded by another sovereign country. That is invasion my friends. By any objective means we can call it an 'invasion'.
But how can u call Chinese troops moving to its own territory in its homeland and launching military operations as 'invasion' ?
Maybe you dont realize this, but dont be fooled by some terms, because it means u have taken the perspective of what some propagandaist want u to believe.
Another one, just read any Western media in the past few days. All of them describe the rioting mobs there as 'protesters' or 'demonstrators'. Just read, I dont bluff you. Read. Not a single one describe them objectively as 'rioters', or maybe even 'mobs' , which is exactly the accurate and correct term by any measure.
Protesters..? My friends, protesters are people who hold placards peacefully, protesters are like Chee Suan Juan holding placards, at least he is peaceful, that can be called 'protesters'.
I didnt want to talk so much about this, but maybe I say it out now, what makes me really uncomfortable watching the news lately is because those mobs and rioters, they target Han Chinese. They beat them, burn shops, loot, and also, they victimized other non-Tibetans like Muslim Huis.What is this..? Protestors..? Demonstrators..?
That is like calling soccer hooligans as 'sport supporters' when they make riots. Just call them hooligans, and now, in this case, just call them rioters. In fact they are racists rioters. They are the worst type of rioters in this world. It was an ethnic riot. Analysts and so on comment on politics, history, etc, but nobody talk much about the racial aspect.
Come on now....I give u some straight talk now my friends....u see those young men in their twenties when they riot....do u think they think so much about politics, autonomy, and so on..? I tell u what I believe.......this is a classic case of socio-economic and/ or racial riot. Local Tibetans riot against lighter skinned and richer Han Chinese, and other non ethnic group of their own. This is no different than some riot in USA between blacks and whites, or recently in France, Paris suburb between Northern Africans and the whites there. In our region we saw other similar riot, in Indonesia and elsewhere.
Why people dont talk about this race aspect...?
I tell u one more thing....
I in fact think the Chinese government has been far too lenient. 3 days of rioting, why..?? China has been far too lenient and careful, and mindful of international attention, especially Olympics is near, I think they are being too soft. Actually in any government, the duty is to protect the soveirgnty of the country and ensure safety to life and property of its citizens.
So, I think the government should in fact enforce the law and order, much more forcefully, and it should.
Meat Pao.
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Oh, I forgot one more thing...
Please...when u start to use the term 'communists', please check urself and think what you are doing.
You are swallowing again a piece of propaganda.Why are you terming or calling someone 'communist' ?
Maybe I use an example,
Imagine if someone who live in another country, under a different system, call someone else a 'capitalist pig'.
Please think for awhile, what is the perspective of that person?
He has been brainwashed to think of 'capitalists' as bad people, just as u have when u start to use the term 'communists' to refer to certain people.
This is another example of what I want to point out, Start reading Western news media report. Many of them would use the term 'communist' such as for instance describing 'communist leadership'. I dont bluff you. Read it.
Why is it they want to emphasize the word 'communist' ? What do u think..?
And what is ridiculous here is that some people actually have fallen to their propaganda and start labeling them as 'communist' as well. Here in sgforums.
Quite sad.
Meat Pao.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Free Tibet?
Why Tibet?
There are so many areas to be "freed".
What about the kurds in Turkey?
What about Basques in Spain?
What about native americans in USA?
Who is going to free them?
I would rather free Palestine from Israeli occupation first, rather than worry about Tibet.
Free Tibet?
Nothing but anti-China propaganda with a hidden political motive behind it.
Drivel.
so .... again ... it's a case of "why you never caught them, never say them ... only me ... they also did the same things ? ".... when you are caught for murder, do you scream, why catch me ? ... why blame me ? ... others did it before also wat ? ....
are you justifying the occupation of one country by another, the subjugation of one people by another, because others have done so in the past ? ....
are you saying "why blame me, the world is picking on me, for something someone else also did in the past, therefore you must have a hidden agenda" ? .... like those reports about food scares and what not ? ... so people who are ranting against hormones laden luncheon meat have hidden agendas ? .....
from what you've been posting in this thread, i wonder if you're Singaporean .... and if not, i wonder what is YOUR hidden agenda judging from the kind of posts you have been putting up in this forum ...... you call all that anti-chinese propaganda ? ... I call you a chinese cultural chauvinist ....
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Originally posted by 333225520:
The China gov should let the Tibetans decide for themselve. Let them vote if they want to remain under China rule or be independent.
that'll never happen ... they are a conquered people remember ...
i just came back from a coffee session with a friend who trekked through tibet only last year .....
she reported that lhasa is filled with han businesses, and that the tibetans are being marginalized .... Tibetan friends told her that they are in no way equal citizens of the PRC ... there are many restrictions on them ... for example, they must obtain special permissions to travel overseas, which are granted only after stringent scrutiny .... and they are not allowed to travel to india, where the dalai lama resides, and the tibetans are being edged out of their country due to massive influxes of han chinese in recent years (sounds familiar ? ) ....
if the chinese goverment regard that region as an integral part of the country .... why the kind of restrictions on the native tibetans ? ..... this is not how a country treats her own citizens ... this is how countries treat the people of a conquered land ....
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what happened in tibet?
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a long time ago, tibet got invaded by a bazillion countries one after another.
Now, some people are holding riots in Tibet.
Other people who really should be minding their own business are debating a moot point. End of story.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
what happened in tibet?
in 1950, tibet, at that time an independant country, got invaded and occupied by the PRC ....
in recent weeks, tibetans have been protesting on the streets, and are being put down by force ... scores are being killed on the streets ....
and some here (including citizens of the latter which are understandly pissed at what they perceive to be criticisms of their own country's atrocities) are saying it's right to do that .... that about sums it up ...
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"she reported that lhasa is filled with han businesses, and that the tibetans are being marginalized .... Tibetan friends told her that they are in no way equal citizens of the PRC ..."
The crux of the problem. Only countries like USA can address such issues, islands like Singapore can only kow tow in obedience.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"she reported that lhasa is filled with han businesses, and that the tibetans are being marginalized .... Tibetan friends told her that they are in no way equal citizens of the PRC ..."
The crux of the problem. Only countries like USA can address such issues, islands like Singapore can only kow tow in obedience.
no they can't ... it'll only become ammunition for people who post things like
"I doubt the red-haired barbarians truly cared about the well-being of another people. It is their political objective, their perennial desire to conquer the world with their own ideology and their way of doing things that compelled them to indulge in this never-ending China-bashing orgy"
that's courtesy of one of our foreign forumer in the other tibetan thread .....
any negative criticism is China-bashing, filled with hidden agendas, biased media reporting .... be it tibet, dodgy food and drugs, faked goods, or the unilateral annexation of the spratley islands ..... you know, it reads strangely similar to the kind of rabid anti-western nationalist chauvinist ideology that swept through japan that lead up to world war two ......
i think if the majority of the people think like that up there ... then China has the greatest potential of all countries in the world to become the next fascist state a la Japan of WWII ... is tibet just the appetizer ? ...
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in 1950, tibet, at that time an independant country, got invaded and occupied by the PRC ....
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
in 1950, tibet, at that time an independant country, got invaded and occupied by the PRC ....
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate
you're cute ... did you even read the wiki links yourself ? .... thanks for the help ...
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you're cute ... did you even read the wiki links yourself ?
Yes, of course.
The wiki provides both sides of the debate.
Want to debate, better have both sides of the story, otherwise too one sided and propagandist, for example the drivel about the dalai lama and Tibetian rule before chinese reforms.
You don't get that on TV.
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China Bashing does exist, some of which is legimitate and some of which is not. Thing is China can own up to the dodgy food and drugs and faked goods but can't own up to the failed policies regarding to Tibet. It does not need to issue an apology or anything like that but the Chinese government can always change their policies. It isnt so much about nationalism but more about saving face, something the CCP and PAP have in common.
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Don't like this China bashing nonsense.
China didn't invade any country and overthrow its government and throw its people to hell.
This type of dirty trick is useless.
Some people cannot see the bias and agenda behind the bashing, think that we are biased in favour of China.
These people are not aware of current global politics.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
you're cute ... did you even read the wiki links yourself ?
Yes, of course.
The wiki provides both sides of the debate.
Want to debate, better have both sides of the story, otherwise too one sided and propagandist, for example the drivel about the dalai lama and Tibetian rule before chinese reforms.
You don't get that on TV.
did you read my posts just above ? ... about my friend's experience trekking in tibet ? .... the discontent is real, not imagined .... like I said, the tibetans are not even being treated as citizens of the PRC ... they are being treated like the inhabitants of a conquered territory .... whatever the case, whoever you think tibet belongs to, you cannot deny that civilians are being killed by chinese security forces over there ....
or are you going to tell me nobody's killed, it's all a "western hegemonist ploy" as well ? ....
how are you going to justify these killings of civilians ? ... are you going to say that hey ! ... it's China's problem, or, again, it's a western powers instigated plot to descredit china during the olympics ("teacher teacher, why you never catch other people, no fair ! ) .... or what ? ... or are you going to make no moral assertions, saying it's neccessary for china to maintain it's territorial integrity ? ....
what are you then, but a chinese cultural chauvinist ? ... it may be understandable if you were a PRC, like the chap ironbutcherer .... i can sympathise and understand, no one likes other people to criticize his own country ... but you ? ..... that it's a racial superiority thing to you ... is the only conclusion I can seem to come to ? ...
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In fact Tibet's religion is only attractive to lets say more liberally inclined Westerners. If it was a Christian country, I guarantee you the USA would be storming into Tibet and setting up another foothold in Asia.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Don't like this China bashing nonsense.
China didn't invade any country and overthrow its government and throw its people to hell.
This type of dirty trick is useless.
see ! ... that's what I mean ! ....
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I prefer Free Lakota!
http://www.republicoflakotah.com
Who want to join?
Yawn, too early.
http://prolibertadweb.tripod.com
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Dalai Lama offers to step down: http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/19/stories/2008031953271200.htm. “
"We must build good relations with the Chinese,” the Dalai Lama said, adding, “we should not develop anti-Chinese feelings. We must live together side by side. In Tibet, Han Chinese and Tibetans can live happily.” "
Personally I think he should step down as political head if he cannot rein in his own people.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
so people there are being machined gunned to death now ? .....
I'm still curious ... what do you think of the killings of civilians in recent weeks ? .... what is your moral pronouncement ? .... what do you think of it ? .... all you've been talking about, is some vague general statements about it all being propaganda plots instigated by other western powers and what not, and that tibet belongs to china and yadda yadda ....
care to make your views known on this ? ... do you think it's right for the civilians to be gunned down like this ? .... doesn't matter if you think it's a matter of subjugating a conquered people (like the japanese did to the chinese in WWII ) ... or if it's an internal security exercise (like what the chinese did to the chinese at tiananmen) ..... is it right ? ... or wrong ? ....
deathbait couldn't answer that straight, I'm interested to hear what you have to say ... in your own words mind you ... because from what you've been exhibiting in SC, most of the thread you put up were not even with words of your own, but from other people's blogs and writings ....
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Fatum what do you think about Tibetians beating or killing innocent Han Chinese civilians? Both parties are to blame.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
Dalai Lama offers to step down: http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/19/stories/2008031953271200.htm. “
"We must build good relations with the Chinese,” the Dalai Lama said, adding, “we should not develop anti-Chinese feelings. We must live together side by side. In Tibet, Han Chinese and Tibetans can live happily.” "
Personally I think he should step down as political head if he cannot rein in his own people.
cos maybe he's living in India and not in tibet ? ...
when I was overseas ... I was pretty "pro-PAP" too ... as some forumers here may well remember (just to side track a bit) .... but when I returned home to Singapore ... I realized how out of touch with the ground i had been ...
he, the dalai lama, is probably out of touch with the discontent on the ground .... and he's lost touch with the people ..... he may be a pragmatist on the macro strategic level, but the people's anger on the grassroots level is real ...
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"the people's anger on the grassroots level is real.."
If China was a democracy (banned word), they can vote the governor out. However ....
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
Fatum what do you think about Tibetians beating or killing innocent Han Chinese civilians? Both parties are to blame.
that is deplorable of course .... this thing is as intractable as the israeli-palestinian issue ... the difference is that the tibetans are not firing rockets into chinese cities, nor are they sending suicide bombers into chinese cities .... their spiritual leader doesn't even advocate violence ....
all that makes me root for the underdog ... in this case clearly tibet ....