Free Tibet!!!!
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Singapore is not a democracy, unlike South Korea. So the US has no claim whatsover that it is protecting a fellow democratic country.
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If Mainland China still under the rules of Communism or socialism or dictatorial rules,any parts of China like Taiwan n Tibet is eligible to break from China.[ ] I dont know how many of you have watch China program CCTV or Phoenix Channel before.I remember during Chinese New Year that time,i watch CCTV Channel and the Chinese leader Wan Jia Bao(He is the Chairman of the Communist party)visit a police headquarters.[ ] He say greetings to all the fellow police officers on duty during the holiday.Then he ask them eat already or not?All the officers,and i mean all,reply "uniformly" that:We have already eaten,thank you Chairman for your concern,we will sacrifice for the sake of socialism and Chairman etc....."(the exact sentence is quite long).Then the Chairman smile happily n crap his hands and so do all the officers.[ ] I was like WTF,are they acting a show or what?Obviously,the questions and answers was "preset" and train over n over again.It is so fuking "Fake"!!!I can tell you guys,those Chinese Communist politicians are living in their own "fantasy world",their physco minds are even more serious than our PAP leaders.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"did the people of tibet have a choice of choosing to be part of china or not ?"
No they didnt, neither does any province of China for that matter. We dont have choices of being BORN citizens of whatever countries either.
I agree.If people can suka suka break away like the balkan states then what would happen to Potong Pasir in the future?
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PAP regime is pro-USA, I don't think they will instigate a coup against them.
They willl only instigate coups against those that won't kowtow.
http://www.mltoday.com/Pages/Imperialism/Blum-USWars.html
I also will not support it as that is intervening in our internal affairs.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
but you .... when it comes to tibet ... seems to totally believe china when they say it's all part of western hidden hegemonist plots to discredit china ..... how come ? ..
I didn't say I believed in PRC's statements.
I said there was bias and that bias is part of a political game.
oh ? .. so now it becomes a bias and it's all part of the political game huh ? ...
cute ... hang on ... let's take a look at one of your threads again ...
http://sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/311449
cute lah you ..... this is just one of the series of threads you posted up about the SPD protest in Singapore ...
so now you're trying to twist your words eh .... is that why you're afraid to make a moral judgement now ? ... suddenly, now you're not supporting the PRC ? ...
so ... after seeing one of the threads you posted up on our local protests ... would you like to say a few words about the chinese putting down the protests in tibet ? ....
or you would like to run along and get out of here ? ...
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I was like WTF,are they acting a show or what?Obviously,the questions and answers was “preset” and train over n over again.It is so fuking “Fake”!!!I can tell you guys,those Chinese Communist politicians are living in their own “fantasy world”,their physco minds are even more serious than our PAP leaders
Don't be biased lah, our SAF also same.
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To make things clear, Pok I am not anti-USA. We shouldn't be. I just dont like double standards being practised. In fact it is their democratic prinicples we are adhering to.
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so ... after seeing one of the threads you posted up on our local protests ... would you like to say a few words about the chinese putting down the protests in tibet ? ....
or you would like to run along and get out of here ? ...
I say I support peaceful protest, not protest that kills people.
SDP peaceful protest. Tibet?
Singapore is not a democracy, unlike South Korea. So the US has no claim whatsover that it is protecting a fellow democratic country.
USA "protecting" democracies is also bullshit, it is only a propaganda device.
http://www.alternet.org/story/34600/
To make things clear, Pok I am not anti-USA.
I am also not anti-USA.
I am only anti-USA foreign policy.
They keep on spreading lies, propaganda, instigating coups, toturing people, bombing, killing, using double standards, violating international law.
If they change their foreign policy to more peaceful and fair policy, I will support USA.
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I dont know about SAF,but atleast,i didnt watch such act putting up on TV before on Singapore media.....But i cant be sure now,coz i didnt watch Singapore news anymore,maybe they have been follow Communist style already,who knows^^Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
I was like WTF,are they acting a show or what?Obviously,the questions and answers was “preset� and train over n over again.It is so fuking “Fake�!!!I can tell you guys,those Chinese Communist politicians are living in their own “fantasy world�,their physco minds are even more serious than our PAP leaders
Don't be biased lah, our SAF also same.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
so ... after seeing one of the threads you posted up on our local protests ... would you like to say a few words about the chinese putting down the protests in tibet ? ....
or you would like to run along and get out of here ? ...
I say I support peaceful protest, not protest that kills people.
oh cute ... now it becomes peaceful protest huh .... what about your failure in logic then ? ... would you like me to post up the entire passage here again and again ?. ... since you are now selectively reading parts of it ? ... makes uncomfortable reading huh ? ....
you support foreign based dissidents against the singapore goverment, but not tibetans (in exile or otherwise) against china ....
you support democracy in Singapore, but not democracy in tibet, or china ... you reproduce passages from a dissident who's not even a singapore citizen anymore to show support and not acknowledge any bias or hidden agendas on your part ... but when it comes to china, it all becomes "part of the political game " ? ....
the hole you're digging for yourself is getting deeper you know ..
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you support democracy in Singapore, but not democracy in tibet, or china ... you reproduce passages from a dissident who's not even a singapore citizen anymore to show support and not acknowledge any bias or hidden agendas on your part ... but when it comes to china, it all becomes "part of the political game " ? ...
I have already replied to these claims.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
you support democracy in Singapore, but not democracy in tibet, or china ... you reproduce passages from a dissident who's not even a singapore citizen anymore to show support and not acknowledge any bias or hidden agendas on your part ... but when it comes to china, it all becomes "part of the political game " ? ...
I have already replied to these claims.
no you haven't .... have you acknowledged the contractictions in what you're been posting here ? ... democracy in singapore ... but not in tibet ? ...
and so, to sum things up for you ... you support the SPD protests .... but not the tibetan or chinese ones ....foreign based dissidents criticizing singapore in the foreign press and from overseas is fine .... but other people criticizing china is ... to quote you from page three ..
"Don't like this China bashing nonsense.
China didn't invade any country and overthrow its government and throw its people to hell.
This type of dirty trick is useless.
Some people cannot see the bias and agenda behind the bashing, think that we are biased in favour of China.
These people are not aware of current global politics."
that's damm cute isn't it ? ......
would you still like to quote from gopalan nair now ? ....
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Originally posted by deathbait:
a long time ago, tibet got invaded by a bazillion countries one after another.
Now, some people are holding riots in Tibet.
Other people who really should be minding their own business are debating a moot point. End of story.
Get your facts right first.
Tibet was not an independent country in 1950. Go back to history, Tibet was ruled by emperors for many decades but was invaded by Dzungars, the mongols in 1717. Emperor Kangxi sent two military expeditions to drive the mongols out in 1718 and 1720, and installed the 7th Dalai Lama with administrative power in 1751.
Again 1788 and 1791, Tibet was invaded twice by the Nepalese who were repelled by the Qing Government. During this period of time, Tibet was already part of China, otherwise why do you think the Qing Dynasty would send soldiers to defend them.
In 1904, with the decline of the Qing dynasty, the British invaded Tibet forcing a treaty to allow free passes for British and Indians into Tibet. "Despite the mutual agreement, the British expedition did take the lives of a few thousand unprepared Tibetan soldiers and civilians. The biggest massacre took place on March 31, 1904 at a mountain pass halfway to Gyantse near a village called Guru…" But even the Brits, they recognized Tibet as part of China. In the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907, drafted by the British, Britain recognized the “suzerainty of China over Thibet" and, in conformity with such admitted principle, engaged "not to enter into negotiations with Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government."
Read what else after that, but basically after going through WW2 and civil war, PRC was consolidating its territory and Tibet uprising in 1950 was met with brutal suppression.
The history of Tibet with China may not go back as long as the Jews with Palestine, and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese may not be as complicated as that between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but you cannot just start the world from 1950 and ignore what happened before.
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Lets open our minds n hearts n debate the issue like Political Scientists. LoL!
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no you haven't .... have you acknowledged the contractictions in what you're been posting here ? ... democracy in singapore ... but not in tibet ? ...
Yes I have.
I mentioned in the past that I support democracy only when the conditions are ripe in a country.
Factors like literacy, economic development, working public institutions etc.
Singapore is ready, China I am not so sure.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
in 1950, tibet, at that time an independant country, got invaded and occupied by the PRC ....
in recent weeks, tibetans have been protesting on the streets, and are being put down by force ... scores are being killed on the streets ....
and some here (including citizens of the latter which are understandly pissed at what they perceive to be criticisms of their own country's atrocities) are saying it's right to do that .... that about sums it up ...
Get your facts right first.
Tibet was not an independent country in 1950. Go back to history, Tibet was ruled by emperors for many decades but was invaded by Dzungars, the mongols in 1717. Emperor Kangxi sent two military expeditions to drive the mongols out in 1718 and 1720, and installed the 7th Dalai Lama with administrative power in 1751.
Again 1788 and 1791, Tibet was invaded twice by the Nepalese who were repelled by the Qing Government. During this period of time, Tibet was already part of China, otherwise why do you think the Qing Dynasty would send soldiers to defend them.
In 1904, with the decline of the Qing dynasty, the British invaded Tibet forcing a treaty to allow free passes for British and Indians into Tibet. "Despite the mutual agreement, the British expedition did take the lives of a few thousand unprepared Tibetan soldiers and civilians. The biggest massacre took place on March 31, 1904 at a mountain pass halfway to Gyantse near a village called Guru…" But even the Brits, they recognized Tibet as part of China. In the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907, drafted by the British, Britain recognized the “suzerainty of China over Thibet" and, in conformity with such admitted principle, engaged "not to enter into negotiations with Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government."
Read what else after that, but basically after going through WW2 and civil war, PRC was consolidating its territory and Tibet uprising in 1950 was met with brutal suppression.
The history of Tibet with China may not go back as long as the Jews with Palestine, and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese may not be as complicated as that between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but you cannot just start the world from 1950 and ignore what happened before.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
no you haven't .... have you acknowledged the contractictions in what you're been posting here ? ... democracy in singapore ... but not in tibet ? ...
Yes I have.
I mentioned in the past that I support democracy only when the conditions are ripe in a country.
Factors like literacy, economic development, working public institutions etc.
Singapore is ready, China I am not so sure.
selective interpretation again dude ? ...... would you like to revisit one of your links again ? ...
the above is about Singapore, posted by you .... but when it comes to china suppressing the dissidents by force (even though they are not dissidents in their own books, since they do not consider themselves chinese) ... you go totally off tangent and start defending against china bashing (see above), building up claims that tibet is part of china, etc etc ....
I'm still scratching my head in wonder at your double standards ... I think you're funny ....
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Get your facts right first.
Tibet was not an independent country in 1950. Go back to history, Tibet was ruled by emperors for many decades but was invaded by Dzungars, the mongols in 1717. Emperor Kangxi sent two military expeditions to drive the mongols out in 1718 and 1720, and installed the 7th Dalai Lama with administrative power in 1751.
Again 1788 and 1791, Tibet was invaded twice by the Nepalese who were repelled by the Qing Government. During this period of time, Tibet was already part of China, otherwise why do you think the Qing Dynasty would send soldiers to defend them.
In 1904, with the decline of the Qing dynasty, the British invaded Tibet forcing a treaty to allow free passes for British and Indians into Tibet. "Despite the mutual agreement, the British expedition did take the lives of a few thousand unprepared Tibetan soldiers and civilians. The biggest massacre took place on March 31, 1904 at a mountain pass halfway to Gyantse near a village called Guru…" But even the Brits, they recognized Tibet as part of China. In the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907, drafted by the British, Britain recognized the “suzerainty of China over Thibet" and, in conformity with such admitted principle, engaged "not to enter into negotiations with Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government."
Read what else after that, but basically after going through WW2 and civil war, PRC was consolidating its territory and Tibet uprising in 1950 was met with brutal suppression.
The history of Tibet with China may not go back as long as the Jews with Palestine, and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese may not be as complicated as that between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but you cannot just start the world from 1950 and ignore what happened before.
ah ... another one of those chaps .... would you like to read through what has been written since you left last night in this thread and the other one ? ...
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selective interpretation again dude ?
???
SDP protest and Tibet protest is different.
SDP is peaceful protest.
Tibet is violent.
I have mentioned this quite a few times.
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Strange to govern a country which defies PRC as it's rightful government.
Shouldn't an election be held to know the consensus of the Tibetans?
But then again PRC is communist, so what elections have you.
This would be equivalent to P4P using force on M'sia and asking that they obey P4P's rule.
More recently Timor Leste with has similarities to Tibet.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Get your facts right first.
Tibet was not an independent country in 1950. Go back to history, Tibet was ruled by emperors for many decades but was invaded by Dzungars, the mongols in 1717. Emperor Kangxi sent two military expeditions to drive the mongols out in 1718 and 1720, and installed the 7th Dalai Lama with administrative power in 1751.
Again 1788 and 1791, Tibet was invaded twice by the Nepalese who were repelled by the Qing Government. During this period of time, Tibet was already part of China, otherwise why do you think the Qing Dynasty would send soldiers to defend them.
In 1904, with the decline of the Qing dynasty, the British invaded Tibet forcing a treaty to allow free passes for British and Indians into Tibet. "Despite the mutual agreement, the British expedition did take the lives of a few thousand unprepared Tibetan soldiers and civilians. The biggest massacre took place on March 31, 1904 at a mountain pass halfway to Gyantse near a village called Guru…" But even the Brits, they recognized Tibet as part of China. In the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907, drafted by the British, Britain recognized the “suzerainty of China over Thibet" and, in conformity with such admitted principle, engaged "not to enter into negotiations with Tibet except through the intermediary of the Chinese Government."
Read what else after that, but basically after going through WW2 and civil war, PRC was consolidating its territory and Tibet uprising in 1950 was met with brutal suppression.
The history of Tibet with China may not go back as long as the Jews with Palestine, and the relationship between the Tibetan and Chinese may not be as complicated as that between the Israelis and the Palestinians, but you cannot just start the world from 1950 and ignore what happened before.
you seems to have a selective and blind faith in the things that you read. .. so I shall attempt to have you read this ... courtesy of our good friend Poh Ah Pak ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate
but nevermind ... cos going by your argument ... since china was successively invaded by multiple foreign powers in her history, raging from the mongols to the manchus .... she's, in your books ... shouldn't be an independant country ? .... is that what you're saying ? ... cos from your post, you're basically saying that because tibet has been farked over and subjugated and invaded, or have fallen under the influence of many different powers in the past (most often, and most recently, China) ... they there fore, were not independant, but are a part of China ? .....
and to quote you ... the tibetan uprising was met with brutal suppression .... you have anything to say about that ? ... would you like to make a moral statement on that ? ... and the recent spate of killings by chinese security forces in tibet ? .... other than just building up the case for chinese sovereignty over tibet ?...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
ah ... another one of those chaps .... would you like to read through what has been written since you left last night in this thread and the other one ? ...
read through all that were written, don't want to get involved in the discussion about PAP and Singapore. What is clear for most of us is that you have no knowledge of the history at all. and you have not read or watch the recent event carefully, did you see the police opened fire?
Your blood boiled when your friend told you there are many Han businesses in Tibet, do you know that there is also a small tibet in chengdu?
The more you argue, the more ignorant you prove yourself to be.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
you seems to have a selective and blind faith in the things that you read. .. so I shall attempt to have you read this ... courtesy of our good friend Poh Ah Pak ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibetan_sovereignty_debate
but nevermind ... cos going by your argument ... since china was successively invaded by multiple foreign powers in her history, raging from the mongols to the manchus .... she's, in your books ... shouldn't be an independant country ? .... is that what you're saying ? ... cos from your post, you're basically saying that because tibet has been farked over and subjugated and invaded, or have fallen under the influence of many different powers in the past (most often, and most recently, China) ... they there fore, were not independant, but are a part of China ? .....
and to quote you ... the tibetan uprising was met with brutal suppression .... you have anything to say about that ? ... would you like to make a moral statement on that ? ... and the recent spate of killings by chinese security forces in tibet ? .... other than just building up the case for chinese sovereignty over tibet ?...
hehe, moral statement again. If I used the words "brutal suppression" instead of "successful containment", I state my disapproval. But get down from your moral high ground. The only moral thing to do now is to stop any further disruption to the normal civilian life in Tibet, stop the spreading of the riots, ... even the dalai lama in exile is calling for restrains on both parties.
the only guys who should get shots are people like you. what recent spate of killings by chiese security forces in tibet, did you see it? on TV or you were there?
The world was there way before you were born. There are things you can't change.
There is a torn in your flesh, it is very painful, but to pull it out it will bleed you to death. You just have to leave it there, manage the pain and let time to take its course. This is one aspect of life, learn to live with it.
If your blood continues to boil, go to any PRC embassy and protest, show your face and make your MORAL STATEMENT.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
read through all that were written, don't want to get involved in the discussion about PAP and Singapore. What is clear for most of us is that you have no knowledge of the history at all. and you have not read or watch the recent event carefully, did you see the police opened fire?
Your blood boiled when your friend told you there are many Han businesses in Tibet, do you know that there is also a small tibet in chengdu?
The more you argue, the more ignorant you prove yourself to be.
of course you don't ... cos you can see the other dude slapping yourself .... and don't go around accusing people of having no knowledge of history when your history based argument gets rebuted ... that only makes you sound like the chaps from the country you're trying to defend ... you know that was a flawed argument, don't you ? ... did you read my other post about what you've written about western bias and double standards ? .... "Hao De Bu xue Xue huai de? "... that applies to your posts as well ....
how can you justify the conquering and subjugation of one country by another simply because other countries (read: western powers if you prefer) ... has done so in the past ? ... saying that tibetan culture was based on oppression and slavery is like saying that the whites were justified in subjugating the aborogines in austrlia cos they were half naked savages isn't it ? .... but of course ... you haven't replied to my analogy of "teacher teacher, why catch me only, others were cheating also, not fair ! ... instead of picking up the best parts of other countries, you're trying to justify picking up the imperialist game from the "imperialists "themselves ? ...
you remind me of those report from china TV shows, after the rash of consumer product scares ... lead paints in dolls, dodgy foods and what not, instead of coming clean and improving quality, the chinese goverment embarked on a campaingn of tit for tat banning, banning potato chips from the US, and what not ... it's so cute ... like a spiteful little boy caught committing a thieft ....
of course, no body saw the police open fire ... yet (though you may like to search for the latest BBC articles and pictures ... but you're gonna claim western bias and doctored photos ? ... )
but it is an undeniable fact that tibetan civilians were killed, even if the numbers were in dispute ...
before you go further on the name calling .... and before I label you a chinese cultural chauvinist too ... would you like to make a moral stand on the PRC's suppression by force on the tibetan civilians ? .... would you like to take a moral stand on the killings ? ..... or are you just going to shy away from the question ... just like the other dudes too ? ...
am I ignorant ? ... or are you really but a chinese chauvinist trying to find justification trying to selectively interpret history ? ...
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
hehe, moral statement again. If I used the words "brutal suppression" instead of "successful containment", I state my disapproval. But get down from your moral high ground. The only moral thing to do now is to stop any further disruption to the normal civilian life in Tibet, stop the spreading of the riots, ... even the dalai lama in exile is calling for restrains on both parties.
the only guys who should get shots are people like you. what recent spate of killings by chiese security forces in tibet, did you see it? on TV or you were there?
The world was there way before you were born. There are things you can't change.
There is a torn in your flesh, it is very painful, but to pull it out it will bleed you to death. You just have to leave it there, manage the pain and let time to take its course. This is one aspect of life, learn to live with it.
If your blood continues to boil, go to any PRC embassy and protest, show your face and make your MORAL STATEMENT.
what recent killings ? ... cute ... even the chinese goverment themselves admit to there being "casualties"... and here you are asking me which eyes have I seen it with ? ....
do not try to defend the undefendable dude ..
and if you're really trying to tell the tibetans to suck it up ,.. I'm pretty sure that had the japanese won in WWII ... and we're all speaking jap now ... you'd be telling others to suck it up too ? ....