there isn't anything u can do.
sales of the power plants is to allow for competition among the companies that bought the power plants.. to see which company can offer a lower price for their electricity- purpledragon84
Competition to lower price? Tell me will you not use electricity if they are not lowering it? Tell me will you not use electricity if the hike the price?
Originally posted by purpledragon84:
hmm.. i'm not sure about that so i wun comment abt it..
but what they are doing now is that the singapore power market is governed by the Energy Market Authority, and under it there's the Energy Market Company(EMC).. EMC is in charge of the sales of electricity from the generation companies(aka genco) to the consumers..
between the gencos and the consumers, there is the transmission and distribution system(aka transco), run by SP PowerGrid, basically its the wiring business.. the gencos are the part which the temasek holdings is selling becoz the transco is run by them still.. and without wire, no electricity.. so basically, the govt still directly in control of the system.. the transco will remain a monopoly becoz its not feasible to let two companies run two different cable systems all over singapore as wires are undergrd.
how the gencos sell electricity is not "i want sell how much per unit, i sell".. the gencos have to sign agreements with EMC to take part in the bidding system before they are allowed to generate.. and as i mentioned, lowest bidder sells his electricity to the public.. and this bidding is half-hourly bid system.. they will send in 48 sets of bids(meaning for 1day).. and the lowest bidder will sell..
this way, they are in control of the whole thing, just that they see who can sell the cheapest priced energy.. they choose not to lower the rates for a few possible reasons..one of them is coz monopolies do not have incentives to cut costs during generation, eg, use more efficient generators, buy better equipment, whereas for pte companies, lower cost = more profit..
Well purpledragon seems to be looking at the issue with a bureaucratic eye. With his 'gencos have to do this' and 'have to do that', he is assuming Chinese corporations are willing to play by our rules. That things will happen the way they are supposed to. And that when things go wrong, our leeders can take them on.
Remember Suzhou?
purpledragon also made a logical flaw in his argument.
'the gencos are the part which the temasek holdings is selling becoz the transco is run by them still.. and without wire, no electricity.. so basically, the govt still directly in control of the system.. '
Well purpledragon, let me present my case using Economics 101. And I will keep things simple without all that technical jargon you spouted...
Anyone remember the supply - demand chain they studied in school? Using the vegetables market as an example. If Malaysia (the supplier) jacks up the price of the vegs they sell to the market hawkers (middlemen or distributer), the consumers (us) WILL end up paying more! We have seen it happen before. Unless the market hawkers absorb the extra cost for us.
Moral of the story: What the supplier does to the price of goods at their end of the supply chain will affect the consumer at the other end.
In the case of our power plants, does anyone here seriously think the PAP will want to absorb the extra costs for us if China jacks up the price? purpledragon is writing from a bureaucratic perspective: assuming the government will be benevolent and look out for our best interests and ensures lowest price. Yeah, right...
And don't cite commercial laws supposedly in place to prevent price fixing. Like I said, do you think China will play by our rules?
Remember Suzhou?
purpledragon's lower cost = more profit does not make sense here. It may be true that when you are selling items like t-shirts, low prices will attract more customers and hence more money coming in.
But in the case of the power plants... Like what another forumner pointed out: If they lower the price, we still need electricity. If they jack up the price, we still need electricity. Either way, we need electricity. And you don't think they will jack up their prices to maximise profits??
And don't give me the crap about 'privatising'. Even if they sell to 3 different Chinese companies, anyone with a brain can see through this wayang. All Chinese corporations either work with the Communist Party or at least have some Party officials on their board of directors.
Gee... You don't think they will close ranks and do a little price fixing?
Crew
Oh someone asked how and why would China hold us hostage with our power plants.
Let's say the China government wants to strongarm our government into signing new deals or whatever. And the Singapore government say no or try to negotiate.
Fine. With the power plants in their hands, China can play hard balls. What happens if they shut down just one power plant? With one third of our power supply gone, you don't think that will affect us?
Ok, there's two more power plants right? So they step in and say: 'Look if you want us to produce more power, you gotta pay more.' And our bills go right up through the sky.
And before another bureaucrat step in to debunk my argument with 'The corporations won't do this 'cause they want to make money too.' Let me ask you: if the power plants are backed by the Communist Party, what is one or 3 power plants in SE Asia worth to them??
If whatever deal China wants Singapore to agree to is good enough and can make up for the losses of the power plants, this 'denial of service' attack could last for months. Then who would be the ones suffering?
Now let us work from the premises that these corporations are coming with honest intentions. We have to ask several important questions:
1) Would the power plants come directly under Chinese management?
2) If the answer is yes, would the Chinese managers retrench Singaporean workers and bring in Chinese workers who can work well under their system?
3) Can we trust their administrative capabilities? According to the news, China has been hit by one power outage after another. In summer and in winter.
Some links here for you folks to go through:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/oct04/4042
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/world/asia/09china.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/world/asia/04snow.html
It seems to me that while bad weather played a part, their management skills (or lack of) should also share the blame.
Crew
if u have 3 rival companies.. each wanting to sell u their stuff.. they will fight to press their price down.. the authority in charge buys only the cheapest.. unless u mean to say they collude to hike up the price, which they have signed contracts to prevent from doing..
but i noe whatcha gonna say.. ur gonna say who the hell cares about going with the law right? who the hell cares about singapore laws when china guys have the big guns yeah?
u know what, that is one argument for which i have nothing to defend with.. becoz u use this kind of flawed argument, really lo.. lan lan lo.. no wonder u support ur SDP and WP what.. u see the law, and somehow by some twisted way u deem it as wrong, becoz u see the circle with the lightning..
what if now SDP or WP is in charge? are you going to say they are going to do it the simplistic way? of simply lowering the rates? are u going to say they will do everything in their power to serve the nation? are they going to supply power to the nation at a loss every month? seriously, by ur own argument i ask u back a question, how can u be so assured that not selling the power plants are the best option? how can u be sure that ur opposition will do things the right way? im telling u i cant be sure u know.. becoz with signs telling them 'trespassers will be prosecuted.", they charge right into the area n scream "down with lee regime!".. seriously... how much more stupid can they get?
ur price of vege from malaysia.. becoz malaysia is in charge, its a monopoly.. thats y the hike.. but in this case, once the generators up the price, the EMC buys from the lower one.. and if u say the price can be fixed, u were really stuck at economics 101, do some reading up on oligopoly and what happens if they collude.. becoz right now singapore power market comparable to an oligopoly.. with the 3 power plants..
oh yah by the way, to (human) and TS, regarding what u said, about the "price high oso we gotta use, price low oso we gotta use", well, u answered ur own questions.. but there is no way u can relate it to the sales of the power plant..
oh yah by the way, to (human) and TS, regarding what u said, about the "price high oso we gotta use, price low oso we gotta use", well, u answered ur own questions.. but there is no way u can relate it to the sales of the power plant. -Purpledragon84
Price high and low cannot related to sales of the power plant? You sure? Tell me if those who bought the power plant are not here for profit or they are just keen to provide service without profitting?
Is power plant not consider as national asset for Singaporeans? Is the government not expected to hold this services to provide Singaporeans needs? The real question is why Temasek want to sell them?
Originally posted by (human):oh yah by the way, to (human) and TS, regarding what u said, about the "price high oso we gotta use, price low oso we gotta use", well, u answered ur own questions.. but there is no way u can relate it to the sales of the power plant. -Purpledragon84
Price high and low cannot related to sales of the power plant? You sure? Tell me if those who bought the power plant are not here for profit or they are just keen to provide service without profitting?
Is power plant not consider as national asset for Singaporeans? Is the government not expected to hold this services to provide Singaporeans needs? The real question is why Temasek want to sell them?
u did not read the front page. time and again i have said costs of running a monopoly is higher than those with competition.. and they can make a profit even though their price is cheaper than what we used to pay.. it does not mean that if we pay lower prices, they are losing money.. if the costs can be lowered, the price can be lowered..
lets just say that temasek holdings want to make money out of selling it? i have confidence that if the opposition is put in charge they will sell too..and i dun mean them selling the power plants.. i mean them selling their children.. coz they have no worries about bringing their children to THEIR protests and endangering them.. are the children not their "assets" so to speak? how different is ur opposition with the current gay govt?
from PAP to opposition, seriously, its just like between the devil and the deep blue sea.. hell, i dun even know which one is the lesser of the two evils..
Originally posted by purpledragon84:
if u have 3 rival companies.. each wanting to sell u their stuff.. they will fight to press their price down.. the authority in charge buys only the cheapest.. unless u mean to say they collude to hike up the price, which they have signed contracts to prevent from doing..
but i noe whatcha gonna say.. ur gonna say who the hell cares about going with the law right? who the hell cares about singapore laws when china guys have the big guns yeah?
u know what, that is one argument for which i have nothing to defend with.. becoz u use this kind of flawed argument, really lo.. lan lan lo.. no wonder u support ur SDP and WP what.. u see the law, and somehow by some twisted way u deem it as wrong, becoz u see the circle with the lightning..
what if now SDP or WP is in charge? are you going to say they are going to do it the simplistic way? of simply lowering the rates? are u going to say they will do everything in their power to serve the nation? are they going to supply power to the nation at a loss every month? seriously, by ur own argument i ask u back a question, how can u be so assured that not selling the power plants are the best option? how can u be sure that ur opposition will do things the right way? im telling u i cant be sure u know.. becoz with signs telling them 'trespassers will be prosecuted.", they charge right into the area n scream "down with lee regime!".. seriously... how much more stupid can they get?
ur price of vege from malaysia.. becoz malaysia is in charge, its a monopoly.. thats y the hike.. but in this case, once the generators up the price, the EMC buys from the lower one.. and if u say the price can be fixed, u were really stuck at economics 101, do some reading up on oligopoly and what happens if they collude.. becoz right now singapore power market comparable to an oligopoly.. with the 3 power plants..
oh yah by the way, to (human) and TS, regarding what u said, about the "price high oso we gotta use, price low oso we gotta use", well, u answered ur own questions.. but there is no way u can relate it to the sales of the power plant..
How long have you ben in the business world mind I ask? To think of it this way " whoever sell cheapest we buy from who" theory is what is happening actually? But rather the other 2 companies see the big 1 increase they will follow. Just like taxi fares... Comfort Delgro increase fares, didnt all follow? It is just that simple. Time for them to earn and increase at the same time. So with all the 3 companies increasing their prices EMC can choose only to buy the "cheapest" of 1 of the 3 "ex" 1 lor. Tio bo?
Originally posted by EkBoy:How long have you ben in the business world mind I ask? To think of it this way " whoever sell cheapest we buy from who" theory is what is happening actually? But rather the other 2 companies see the big 1 increase they will follow. Just like taxi fares... Comfort Delgro increase fares, didnt all follow? It is just that simple. Time for them to earn and increase at the same time. So with all the 3 companies increasing their prices EMC can choose only to buy the "cheapest" of 1 of the 3 "ex" 1 lor. Tio bo?
assuming all goes right, the bids are supposed to be submitted in secrecy..
if something goes wrong and they collude(fix price), they will fall into a nash equilibrium.. and they will lose money(or not make so much).. nash equilibrium is an economic situation which happens in oligopoly meaning there are only two companies in the market..its quite a huge chunk of theory which im not too interested to go into..
Originally posted by purpledragon84:
if u have 3 rival companies.. each wanting to sell u their stuff.. they will fight to press their price down.. the authority in charge buys only the cheapest.. unless u mean to say they collude to hike up the price, which they have signed contracts to prevent from doing..
but i noe whatcha gonna say.. ur gonna say who the hell cares about going with the law right? who the hell cares about singapore laws when china guys have the big guns yeah?
u know what, that is one argument for which i have nothing to defend with.. becoz u use this kind of flawed argument, really lo.. lan lan lo.. no wonder u support ur SDP and WP what.. u see the law, and somehow by some twisted way u deem it as wrong, becoz u see the circle with the lightning..
what if now SDP or WP is in charge? are you going to say they are going to do it the simplistic way? of simply lowering the rates? are u going to say they will do everything in their power to serve the nation? are they going to supply power to the nation at a loss every month? seriously, by ur own argument i ask u back a question, how can u be so assured that not selling the power plants are the best option? how can u be sure that ur opposition will do things the right way? im telling u i cant be sure u know.. becoz with signs telling them 'trespassers will be prosecuted.", they charge right into the area n scream "down with lee regime!".. seriously... how much more stupid can they get?
ur price of vege from malaysia.. becoz malaysia is in charge, its a monopoly.. thats y the hike.. but in this case, once the generators up the price, the EMC buys from the lower one.. and if u say the price can be fixed, u were really stuck at economics 101, do some reading up on oligopoly and what happens if they collude.. becoz right now singapore power market comparable to an oligopoly.. with the 3 power plants..
oh yah by the way, to (human) and TS, regarding what u said, about the "price high oso we gotta use, price low oso we gotta use", well, u answered ur own questions.. but there is no way u can relate it to the sales of the power plant..
how naive. We had more than 3 petrol companies, Esso/Mobil, Shell, SPC, Caltex....So what happened? We are at the mercy of the petroleum cartel.
Stop dreaming
Will Singaporeans do what Malaysians did on 3 Mar 2008?
typo error
should be 8 Mar 2008
Originally posted by 淋雨:how naive. We had more than 3 petrol companies, Esso/Mobil, Shell, SPC, Caltex....So what happened? We are at the mercy of the petroleum cartel.
Stop dreaming
the two schemes we are talking about are different..for petrol, u see the price of ur rivals go up, u will go up too, but just slightly lower, so ppl will come to u.. same for cab fares..
this is different.. u dun see the price ur rivals offer..
Originally posted by Seven_Dragon:Will Singaporeans do what Malaysians did on 3 Mar 2008?
not me, if all the oppositions are doing is just to stand there and shouting that their fingers are breaking. if the pap is shitty as well, i'll cast a null vote.
Originally posted by purpledragon84:the two schemes we are talking about are different..for petrol, u see the price of ur rivals go up, u will go up too, but just slightly lower, so ppl will come to u.. same for cab fares..
this is different.. u dun see the price ur rivals offer..
er.....the electricity business are run by a bunch of dummies
how naive. We had more than 3 petrol companies, Esso/Mobil, Shell, SPC, Caltex....So what happened? We are at the mercy of the petroleum cartel. -Lin Yu
Oil companys are making billions of profit each year. The more they make the poorer the people will become. It's time to rely less on oil as fuel.
Originally posted by 淋雨:
er.....the electricity business are run by a bunch of dummies
anything u say la.. im tired of explaining it all le..
hope the opposition comes into power and screws up worse than PAP..