Naval accidents - Japan Defense Minister & Navy Chief sacked
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Originally posted by freedom4ever:
but i thought they are my parents wor.
Remember, ask not what the PAP can do for you but rather what you can do for the PAP.
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This reminds me of the sergeant that was tortured to death in a commando training after his head was submerged under water for sometime.
Anyway, don't complain so much lah, being a defense minister is never easy.
Ask Thia Kiang to be defense minister lah. He can make it or not? -
Another new registered poster.
Welcome, welcome.
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And in other news, Defence Secretary Gates of the USA just fired the Airforce Secretary and the Chief of Staff of the Airforce for systematic failures of oversight.
Seriously, anyone who cannot provide a good reason why the RSN chief shouldn't quit is either 1. an idiot, 2. a coward, 3. a syncoplant, and 4. All the above.
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Originally posted by charlize:
Somebody apparently thinks ministers are the parents of Singaporeans.
Is that what they teach in PAP kindergarten these days?
Damn.
Somehow the illogical hypocrite who accuses others of "have not found your balls to answer" cannot answer (yet again, as in the other thread)
Why compare someone voted in to do the job vs someone who is not?
Really lor, "It's only a simple question and yet [this PB] evade[s] when truth, reason and logic is placed right in front of [his] eyes"
But it's not surprising though... cuz it's not the first time.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Somehow the illogical hypocrite who accuses others of "have not found your balls to answer" cannot answer (yet again, as in the other thread)
Really lor, "It's only a simple question and yet [this PB] evade[s] when truth, reason and logic is placed right in front of [his] eyes"
But it's not surprising though... cuz it's not the first time.
Simpleton, I am glad you admire my literary style enough to plagiarise an entire sentence and twist it to your own ends:-lol! Still have not found your balls to answer yet? It's only a simple question and yet you evade when truth, reason and logic is placed right in front of your eyes? Point_Blank 6th June 11.29am.
Still feeling sore over your whatever vs whatever comparison i purposedly refuse to rebut? Enjoy the feeling, because there is nothing you can do about it.
Were you sincere and open-minded, i would have engage with you, even though you had proven yourself an hypocritical idiot, but as you enjoy harping on the good work of your betters, decrying their hardwork, making it insignificant when it meant a lot to many, when you yourself COULD NOT EVEN DO GOOD, LET ALONE BETTER, just like the rest of your bunch of idiots here.
Go on, feel sore. I enjoy watching you and your bunch of idiots here squirm and make a fool out of yourselves.
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You know, when I hear talk about "no political showmanship and what not crap", I seriously wonder why everything that we demand of the our government is construed as that. Now, would someone tell me, that our damn fucking government has never tried political showmanship, however fucking incompetent many of the idiot ministers are? Then comes the "we should not be bickering among ourselves" euphemism which simply means "Shut the fuck up and don't argue with me". Really, can these be even considered valid arguments? If the idiots continue on with the notion of unity, I'm going to laugh. This country was never founded on the notion of unity. It was founded on the prinicple of cut throat competition which our government joyously termed as "meritocracy". We see elements of this cut-throat competition in every policy we have, from the lack of a real safety net, to a government's refusal to offer real welfare etc. etc. And people wonder why we have no civil spirit. Yeah, like it wasn't obvious enough to anyone.
Now, on to the subject matter at hand. Let's be frank. When a screwup of this variety happened, any punishment met out will obviously stop somewhere. The ones on top are going to feign ignorance to protect their butts. No investigation, at least involving anything with the PAP's fingerprints, is going to go as far as say that there was systematic problems in the oversight, even if it does exist. So they obviously find the the obvious scapegoats, and don't bother to go up further and check why no one was reviewing the practices of the scapegoats, and why no action was taken if they were known. If the answer is "they have better and more important things to do" then obviously someone needs a course on management and responsibility.
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Originally posted by Point_blank:
The keyword is - QUALIFICATION. It is only thru qualifications can one be entrusted to a position that entails specific duties. It had been the hallmark of our government of putting only qualified people for the job so as not to waste taxpayers money, and not just some Tom, dick and harry from the streets- simply to get the job done.
Qualification my ass. The issue is not qualification, but instead who was looking over the fucker's shoulder. If the moron looking over the shoulder and monitoring the work didn't do his damn job, then the guy looking over the shoulder should also get his ass kicked.And yes, it should go all the way to the top if found that the CEO didn't do his job making sure that a culture of best practices was maintained.
So much so till the People are complaining of Qualified FTs taking over our jobs. Now the govt is in a tight spot - Support unqualified local personal ahead and they get blame. Support qualified outsiders, they get blamed. Their solution now is to adopt flexible education style - selection of courses and upgrading of courses that best suit market opportunities in the next few years to help our locals.
Would you yourself hire a primary school educated man without even successful track management records to manage your financial wealth portfolios?
Would you put a taxi driver incharge of a ship if he was not trained for the job?
Most people are hire because they had been qualified for the job, and thus solely responsible for it. They cannot shirk that responsibility by pushing it upwards if management had already approved their appointments, not by fortune telling, but by paper qualifications.
False dilemma. Substantiate why you would say there would be no unqualified persons who can take up the jobs. Are our universities incapable of producing the persons trained for the jobs in question? If yes, why is it so? If no, then is it the issue of too many persons? If not enough people want to take the jobs in question, why wasn't more effort done to attract them?
Now that i had answer this on behalf of others, mau, perhaps you can answer to my simple query:-
Who should take the blame if a son commits murder, he or his father/mother/both in the name of accountability? Do understand your answer will reflect the kind of society you want and want others to live in.
This question is so subjective it requires a yes and no answer.
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Originally posted by Point_blank:
Simpleton, I am glad you admire my literary style enough to plagiarise an entire sentence and twist it to your own ends:-lol! Still have not found your balls to answer yet? It's only a simple question and yet you evade when truth, reason and logic is placed right in front of your eyes? Point_Blank 6th June 11.29am.
Were you sincere and open-minded, i would have engage with you, even though you had proven yourself an hypocritical idiot, but as you enjoy harping on the good work of your betters, decrying their hardwork, making it insignificant when it meant a lot to many, when you yourself COULD NOT EVEN DO GOOD, LET ALONE BETTER, just like the rest of your bunch of idiots here.
Go on, feel sore. I enjoy watching you and your bunch of idiots here squirm and make a fool out of yourselves.
Were you sincere and open-minded
What rubbish coming from someone who insults the moment someone asked a question he cannot reply, not only to me, but to a number of forumers
But I guess that is what I can expect from a lunatic. You know, those who when you ask them a question, immediately start insulting in whatever limited vocab they can muster. That's what I have been treating you as so far
Still feeling sore over your whatever vs whatever comparison i purposedly refuse to rebut? Enjoy the feeling, because there is nothing you can do about it.
Anything. It only shows your incompetent, incoherent, incapable, pathethic self. Why? Because other than insults, you can never engage anyone. Lunatic.
It's extremely hypocritical that you have to attack someone else for not answering you, yet telling me that I feel sore over your refusal to answer.Why will I feel sore over a lunatic refusing to answer any question?
My point is to tell ev everyone else how hypocritical you are. Why do you respond at all? Because it is right and you need to cover it up with a series of extra insults. How, are you feeling damn sore because that M13 refuses to answer some of your questions?
Simpleton, I am glad you admire my literary style enough to plagiarise an entire sentence and twist it to your own ends:-Isn't it obvious what a simpleton you are if you cannot understand that this is a display of your strong hypocrisy. I raised proof that you attacked others for something you are doing yourself.
Again, you are merely a hypocrite (and lunatic) who practice double standards, which till now, you cannot disprove. I'm willing to bet that you are/were a failure both in school and in society.
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Originally posted by eagle:
What rubbish coming from someone who insults the moment someone asked a question he cannot reply, not only to me, but to a number of forumers
But I guess that is what I can expect from a lunatic. You know, those who when you ask them a question, immediately start insulting in whatever limited vocab they can muster. That's what I have been treating you as so far
Anything. It only shows your incompetent, incoherent, incapable, pathethic self. Why? Because other than insults, you can never engage anyone. Lunatic.
It's extremely hypocritical that you have to attack someone else for not answering you, yet telling me that I feel sore over your refusal to answer.Why will I feel sore over a lunatic refusing to answer any question?
My point is to tell ev everyone else how hypocritical you are. Why do you respond at all? Because it is right and you need to cover it up with a series of extra insults. How, are you feeling damn sore because that M13 refuses to answer some of your questions?
Isn't it obvious what a simpleton you are if you cannot understand that this is a display of your strong hypocrisy. I raised proof that you attacked others for something you are doing yourself.
Again, you are merely a hypocrite (and lunatic) who practice double standards, which till now, you cannot disprove. I'm willing to bet that you are/were a failure both in school and in society.
Oh, another regular idiot here. Insults and hypocrisy. lol! You NOW do know what they are finally. Guess i had done a good job to wake you up to your failings.May you be more circumspect when you deal with others, idiot!
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Originally posted by Point_blank:
Oh, another regular idiot here. Insults and hypocrisy. lol! You NOW do know what they are finally. Guess i had done a good job to wake you up to your failings.May you be more circumspect when you deal with idiots!
Hey Lunatic,
again, it seems that you have to make this statement "wake you up to your failings" even though all the failings were from you. This is a behaviour that Gazelle and clones has constantly exhibit.
Grats that you finally understood what you are.
And great that you have woken up to your pathetic self. I will take it as you have been thrashed (in your words) since you cannot answer to any of the above claims. From now on, we shall all refer to you as a person who is a lunatic, an illogical hypocrite, and a failure in both school and society. Thanks for telling us that.
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In the west, top people are responsible even for mistakes done by his men.
This is very basic responsibility and accountability.
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Originally posted by Gutentaginator:
In the west, top people are responsible even for mistakes done by his men.
This is very basic responsibility and accountability.
i dont recall the top american generals or defense sec or top pple quitting or being sacked by the sex crime mistakes done by their men in okinawa where they have a military base there -
Some folks can't distinguish between performing a duty under the purview of the military and private life.
There is a difference between the system failure of ISD that resulted in the escape of a suspected dangerous terrorist and a guard committing rape outside his work hours.
New nick, must be OM or Gazelle, distorting the lines again.
They are good at it, after so many years of professional training, one must think about the situation objectively to figure out what's rights and wrong.
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i dont recall the top american generals or defense sec or top pple quitting or being sacked by the sex crime mistakes done by their men in okinawa where they have a military base thereThe sudden sacking of both the senior civilian and military commanders of the US Air Force Thursday is symptomatic of the growing tensions within an American government dominated by militarism and torn by divisions over what strategy Washington should pursue to defend its global interests.
The forced resignations of Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and chief of staff Gen. Michael “Buzz” Moseley were ostensibly triggered by what Defense Secretary Robert Gates called “a chain of failures” in the Air Force’s handling of US nuclear weapons...
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
The sudden sacking of both the senior civilian and military commanders of the US Air Force Thursday is symptomatic of the growing tensions within an American government dominated by militarism and torn by divisions over what strategy Washington should pursue to defend its global interests.
The forced resignations of Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne and chief of staff Gen. Michael “Buzz” Moseley were ostensibly triggered by what Defense Secretary Robert Gates called “a chain of failures” in the Air Force’s handling of US nuclear weapons...
If they adopt Singapore government stance, probably the quatermaster and storeman will kenna fire.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Some folks can't distinguish between performing a duty under the purview of the military and private life.
There is a difference between the system failure of ISD that resulted in the escape of a suspected dangerous terrorist and a guard committing rape outside his work hours.
New nick, must be OM or Gazelle, distorting the lines again.
They are good at it, after so many years of professional training, one must think about the situation objectively to figure out what's rights and wrong.
if going by what u just said abt duty and personal life, neither did i see any top american leader quitting or being sacked for the degrading treatment of the iraqi pows by the american guards in their course of duty...... opps!!!
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Originally posted by Atobe:
You are correct in that the RSS Courageous was an anti-submarine patrol vessel.The RSS Courageous was the first batch of the Fearless Class of Patrol Vessel, and according to information from Singapore Technologies - the second batch of the Fearless Class was supposed to be a Missile Patrol Boats.
These Missile Patrol Boats were superceded by a larger class of Missile Corvettes.
Unfortunately, types of vessels aside, the moral standards of accountability is shamefully deficient in a Ruling Political Party when it will not place the same standard of measure on themselves, but will dare to preach to the Leadership of an Alternative Party - by holding it responsible for the administrative failings of its subordinate over a piece of paper.
Woah?
The Fearless class is the 2nd class. The 1st class is the.....I forgot what, but it is a patrol vessel minus the ASW capabilities.
And what larger corvette? The only ones we have are the Victory class from late 80s.
And what does firing the fella do to aid investigations and prevent further accidents from happening? Accountability, yes. Fire, why not? But how can you suka suka just fire the top brass just because of an accident?
If we're gonna take just this case and fire the guy, I can guarantee you, you'll be having super turn-over rates.
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Originally posted by Bentsb05:
if going by what u just said abt duty and personal life, neither did i see any top american leader quitting or being sacked for the degrading treatment of the iraqi pows by the american guards in their course of duty...... opps!!!
You open up new issues when you lose in your current argument.
If I answer this, you will bring up more cases, any end to this?
First you compare about soldier's private lives with that of guards on duty (under the jurisdiction of the military).
Then you compare torture of prisoners of wars with crashing of missle corvette and guards on duty. Here you are talking about a Minister in charge of the entire operations of the Home Affairs Ministry, who was incompetent that he cannot forsee a lapse in security with the toilet windows. The Singapore ISD guards were performing duty as required of them, not going against the standard operating procedure (SOP). The US scenario was that of soldiers going against proper standard operating procedure (SOP), that's why the soldiers were at fault. There is a difference between system wide incompetence and abuse by individuals.
Systems are set by people from the top, whereas abuse by individual is folks from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top.
Don't think I want to argue with you Gazelle, you have the habit of opening up new issues when you lose with your current points. There will be no end to this, I have better things to do than to entertain your TROLL fixation. Very soon you will be putting words into my mouth.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
You open up new issues when you lose in your current argument.
If I answer this, you will bring up more cases, any end to this?
First you compare about soldier's private lives with that of guards on duty (under the jurisdiction of the military).
Then you compare torture of prisoners of wars with crashing of missle corvette and guards on duty. Here you are talking about a Minister in charge of the entire operations of the Home Affairs Ministry, who was incompetent that he cannot forsee a lapse in security with the toilet windows. The Singapore ISD guards were performing duty as required of them, not going against the standard operating procedure (SOP). The US scenario was that of soldiers going against proper standard operating procedure (SOP), that's why the soldiers were at fault. There is a difference between system wide incompetence and abuse by individuals.
Systems are set by people from the top, whereas abuse by individual is folks from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top.
Don't think I want to argue with you Gazelle, you have the habit of opening up new issues when you lose with your current points. There will be no end to this, I have better things to do than to entertain your TROLL fixation. Very soon you will be putting words into my mouth.
There is a difference between system wide incompetence and abuse by individuals.
Systems are set by people from the top, whereas abuse by individual is folks from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top.
hey m13, thanks for crossing over to my side and agreeing with me... so it is an abuse by individuals from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top. ... now u finally see the light, ehh?? that it is the failure to comply with the good security system or SOPs in yr words laid by the home ministry by the pple there running the daily operations of WRDC.third party reports have found out the cause as human factor which in this case is complacency by the pple there.... as no jailbreaks have occured in recent history, so is it a case of system wide incompetence ?? hee hee
honestly ask anyone, do they feel a security system shortcoming climate here in singapore or do they feel unsafe here?? isnt that due to the good work of our good government elected by our good pple here. ouch!!
btw, who is gazelle??
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Originally posted by Bentsb05:
There is a difference between system wide incompetence and abuse by individuals.
Systems are set by people from the top, whereas abuse by individual is folks from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top.
hey m13, thanks for crossing over to my side and agreeing with me... so it is an abuse by individuals from the lower ranks going against systems set by folks from the top. ... now u finally see the light, ehh?? that it is the failure to comply with the good security system or SOPs in yr words laid by the home ministry by the pple there running the daily operations of WRDC.third party reports have found out the cause as human factor which in this case is complacency by the pple there.... as no jailbreaks have occured in recent history, so is it a case of system wide incompetence ?? hee hee
honestly ask anyone, do they feel a security system shortcoming climate here in singapore or do they feel unsafe here?? isnt that due to the good work of our good government elected by our good pple here. ouch!!
btw, who is gazelle??
Go read again and try to understand.
Singapore's case is incompetence from the top who implemented the system, the junior officers were just following procedures set by the top, there was no abuse.
US case was where the servicemen go against the procedures set by the top and decide to do things themselves, there was abuse of proper procedures.
This is the best I can help you to understand, if you don't than too bad.
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Originally posted by Bentsb05:
if going by what u just said abt duty and personal life, neither did i see any top american leader quitting or being sacked for the degrading treatment of the iraqi pows by the american guards in their course of duty...... opps!!!
The general in charge of Abu Gharib was disciplined for poor management.
So your point was? -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Woah?
The Fearless class is the 2nd class. The 1st class is the.....I forgot what, but it is a patrol vessel minus the ASW capabilities.
And what larger corvette? The only ones we have are the Victory class from late 80s.
And what does firing the fella do to aid investigations and prevent further accidents from happening? Accountability, yes. Fire, why not? But how can you suka suka just fire the top brass just because of an accident?
If we're gonna take just this case and fire the guy, I can guarantee you, you'll be having super turn-over rates.
Whatever Class of vessel - whether Missile Gun Boat, Gun Boat, Patrol Vessel, or simply Corvettes - you will have to make up your mind before any sensible discussion can take place; as matters stand you are much too late to re-kindle a dead issue.
Was it a ''suka-suka'' matter in firing the Defense Minister and the Chief of Navy by the Japanese Government ?
We can only assume that the Japanese Government had felt it necessary to ensure that the buck stops at the highest level, so as to instill discipline and respect in the Navy.
Similarly, we have seen the US Secretary of Defense receiving the approval - from the US President and the Congressional Committee for Defense - to fire the Secretary to the Air Force and the Chief of the US Air Force for two serious violations that revealed the breakdown in the operational standards of the US Air Force in not following clear and established guidelines in handling nuclear weapons and devices.
If Singapore is to instill a similar high standard of best practices so as to achieve the high operational high standards of a motivated and disciplined SAF, then it must start from the basic point of Accountability and Responsibility.
As matters stand, do you think that there is already a high turnover rate in the General Staff, with the CDF not holding his post longer then 4 years, and with him retiring thereafter, with no further relationship in the SAF ?
The high turnover rate with a new CDF every four years, is due more to a lack of trust in having a Military Man getting too strong in his seat and become a challenge to the Civil Administrator. .
So far, only the CDF is in the limelight, and there are other senior officers in the General Staff that has seen a high rate of turnover at MINDEF - all done under the guise of self-renewal.