Thought we should help our own singaporean citizen first.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Pardon my ignorance Eagle,
But your postings does seem rather pro-FTs.
Also, you are aware that FT need not give up their home country's citizenship just because they choose to take up Singapore Citizenship right ?
Some PRC I know.. who are both US citizens AND keep their PRC status.
I do support FT policy somewhat, because to me, Singapore is still basically a country of 'foreigners'. Being born here just mean you are of a later generation of a foreigner.
To me, if they are good FTs, they will still be employed elsewhere in this region, and in the end, our jobs and businesses will still be attracted elsewhere, just not Singapore. Which mean in the end, you will still either lose out, or force to cut salaries to reduce production costs so as to compete with them.
But I have to agree with everyone that the lower pay bracket is indeed not welcomed. Then again, most Singaporean guys are paid more than guy foreigners in the same field, at the same rank and experience level.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I do support FT policy somewhat, because to me, Singapore is still basically a country of 'foreigners'. Being born here just mean you are of a later generation of a foreigner.
To me, if they are good FTs, they will still be employed elsewhere in this region, and in the end, our jobs and businesses will still be attracted elsewhere, just not Singapore. Which mean in the end, you will still either lose out, or force to cut salaries to reduce production costs so as to compete with them.
But I have to agree with everyone that the lower pay bracket is indeed not welcomed. Then again, most Singaporean guys are paid more than guy foreigners in the same field, at the same rank and experience level.
We cannot consider ourselves latter generations of foreigners. simply because we have no "home" country to go back to. We are descendents of immigrants but we are definitely not foreigners.
I don't deny the it will be ideal for foreigners to take up jobs in the lower grade level. This does indeed help cut down living costs and increase price advantage and does benefit Singaporeans.
Companies seeking to manufacture labor intensive and low unit cost products.. they will not look at setting up factories in Singapore, with or without FT. Since the high cost of living will not make such operation viable.
Singapore has her niche in the higher tech and higher unit value market.
But if this segment gets saturated with FTs.. it will defeat the purpose of having low cost foreign labor.
Then perhaps.. the next question will be.
Out of so many FTs.. how many has their own families living here with them.. in Singapore.
Like many foreigners in the US markets.. they live frugally.. send most of their earnings back home to build a better life for their families where cost of living is so much lower. So it doesn't matter if they get a lower pay than SG guys.
However, SG guys cannot benefit from such arrangement. Unless we all plan to retire in another country.
Companies will try to provide an equitable pay package in order to retain employees.
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True.. if a person is good he/she becomes very mobile. They can always go other countries to seek employment.
But the difference between other countries versus ours.. is that most countries adopt a protective measure to ensure foreigners are employed based on needs.. not competitive wage.
Whereas, currently.. Singapore is having an open door policy.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
True.. if a person is good he/she becomes very mobile. They can always go other countries to seek employment.
But the difference between other countries versus ours.. is that most countries adopt a protective measure to ensure foreigners are employed based on needs.. not competitive wage.
Whereas, currently.. Singapore is having an open door policy.
.. which is DUMB..... to which they will in future have to inevtitably admit it is, and then say 'lets move on' after they've done damages..
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Originally posted by HyperFocal:
.. which is DUMB..... to which they will in future have to inevtitably admit it is, and then say 'lets move on' after they've done damages..
Uh huh...
And if PR status is so easily obtainable.. what's the value of a work permit in SG ?
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Originally posted by eagle:
Again, I have to say that I have not made any statement about competing pay with FTs. I have no idea what you think is in my mind.
And to think that there's no competition within schools from foreigners (especially in NUS) is an extremely short-sighted viewpoint. You just have to hear the number of people in school complaining to know.
And I still have no idea on how has a NS environment got to do with competing with foreigner.
It is a totally different story in school. It is healthy competition since the local and foreigner are competing in similar condition.
In the real world, even if you have the same experience, qualification as FT, if the FT is willing to work at lower pay, the job will most likely go to him. Many FT are just working here temporary so the high cost of living has less effect on them. They can rent a place and save enough to go back and enjoy life.
But does it make sense for Singaporean to rent a place like FT? If Singaporeans are to lower their pays to match that of FT (which is a vicious cycle), how are they supposed to survive when they retire? Hand-out from gov (which unfortunately is not a welfare one)?
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Originally posted by eagle:
The main thing i see actually is, if we do not employ the lower wage FT in Singapore, they will still be employed elsewhere around this region. In the end, businesses would still go to their cheaper services which will then be in other neighbouring countries other than Singapore...
Of course, this seriously drive down local wages. Then again, why compete in areas in which you have no comparative advantage? Why not in an area in which you could ride or control it? One example would be a friend of mine; he started a company specialising in bringing FTs to Singapore to work, handling their work permit and all other necessary documents, etc... In such industries, the company could possibly earn near 10k to 20k when small, and near 100k when on a big scale...
Oh, really? So every Singaporean should start a business and employ FT to work for them? Then why do they still bother to teach Engineering , IT, etc back in school since these are skills which have no "comparative advantage"?
Your friend just is earning a fortune at the expense of his fellow Singaporean. If everyone is to start similar business, perhaps your friend will finally understand what it meant by having unhealthy competition will drive down earning.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I do support FT policy somewhat, because to me, Singapore is still basically a country of 'foreigners'. Being born here just mean you are of a later generation of a foreigner.
To me, if they are good FTs, they will still be employed elsewhere in this region, and in the end, our jobs and businesses will still be attracted elsewhere, just not Singapore. Which mean in the end, you will still either lose out, or force to cut salaries to reduce production costs so as to compete with them.
But I have to agree with everyone that the lower pay bracket is indeed not welcomed. Then again, most Singaporean guys are paid more than guy foreigners in the same field, at the same rank and experience level.
your point is valid if singapore is just starting out. however, there are already a few generations of singapore's entrenching their roots here. so, that sense of nationhood and loyalty it there. why bother with the pledge and `majulah singapura' if so....
FTs are here to fill a gap and sustain singapore's economic competitiveness. singapore is attractive to FTs whose own country lag behind singapore. most who came from developed countries would not settle here. they will see this as an opportunity to enrich themselves, experience a new culture and bone a few asian chicks and then go back with bragging rights.
this is a warped analogy, but in some ways, singapore is like a hooker. you extend this open invitation to anyone outside to come, stayover and have your fill as long as you contribute to its(singapore) well being economically, or is enrich by it. all in the name of survival.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
We cannot consider ourselves latter generations of foreigners. simply because we have no "home" country to go back to. We are descendents of immigrants but we are definitely not foreigners.
I don't deny the it will be ideal for foreigners to take up jobs in the lower grade level. This does indeed help cut down living costs and increase price advantage and does benefit Singaporeans.
Companies seeking to manufacture labor intensive and low unit cost products.. they will not look at setting up factories in Singapore, with or without FT. Since the high cost of living will not make such operation viable.
Singapore has her niche in the higher tech and higher unit value market.
But if this segment gets saturated with FTs.. it will defeat the purpose of having low cost foreign labor.
Then perhaps.. the next question will be.
Out of so many FTs.. how many has their own families living here with them.. in Singapore.
Like many foreigners in the US markets.. they live frugally.. send most of their earnings back home to build a better life for their families where cost of living is so much lower. So it doesn't matter if they get a lower pay than SG guys.
However, SG guys cannot benefit from such arrangement. Unless we all plan to retire in another country.
Companies will try to provide an equitable pay package in order to retain employees.
It is true that Singapore has her niche in the higher tech and higher unit value market, but for how long more? As they say, China's strength is not only in its cheap and abundant labour, but cheap, abundant and well educated labour.
It is a bit different from the situation in US, mainly because of China's extreme close proximity to Singapore. In addition, India is fast catching up in terms of technology. This close proximity results in immigrants from India and China that building up Singapore in the past. Businesses can simply move their Asian operations from Singapore to some neighbouring country.
The above points shows one thing which I had tried to raise, which is, FTs settling in neighbouring countries will one day offer competition with a price so low that businesses will be willing to try them out. Slowly and surely, such businesses will move out of Singapore, and thus in order to price as competitively, one of the main costs, salary, would have to be lowered.
So my point is, why not gather the FTs here instead, and keep the businesses here? Of course, there's the side effect of a lower pay bracket... which is something that might still happen if FTs are competing in a nearby country.
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Originally posted by 333225520:
It is a totally different story in school. It is healthy competition since the local and foreigner are competing in similar condition.In the real world, even if you have the same experience, qualification as FT, if the FT is willing to work at lower pay, the job will most likely go to him. Many FT are just working here temporary so the high cost of living has less effect on them. They can rent a place and save enough to go back and enjoy life.
But does it make sense for Singaporean to rent a place like FT? If Singaporeans are to lower their pays to match that of FT (which is a vicious cycle), how are they supposed to survive when they retire? Hand-out from gov (which unfortunately is not a welfare one)?
You have a point. But it is not perfectly similar conditions. As a forumer has pointed out before in another thread, there are PRC scholars who had completed till 3rd year uni, then jump at a scholarship to retake the 4 years of uni at NUS. This is because the competition in China is too strong, and by doing so, he gets the branding of overseas scholar + very good results because he learned most things before.
Then again, as I have said in the previous page, last post, why compete in an area where you have relative low comparative advantage? No matter the criticisms of the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, there's one thing which I feel is true: Blame the government, blame the tax structure, blame your boss, and you will be stuck in a rut, forever stuck in the 'rat race'.
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Originally posted by 333225520:
Oh, really? So every Singaporean should start a business and employ FT to work for them? Then why do they still bother to teach Engineering , IT, etc back in school since these are skills which have no "comparative advantage"? Your friend just is earning a fortune at the expense of his fellow Singaporean. If everyone is to start similar business, perhaps your friend will finally understand what it meant by having unhealthy competition will drive down earning.
That is only an example; you will have to know where your strengths and weaknesses are in order to identify which areas you have comparative advantage in. It doesn't mean you have to die die only follow that pathway.
If you seroiusly think engineering and IT are skills which have no "comparative advantage", and thus perhaps no necessity to learn or anything else, then you are truly stuck. Anyway, I thought the concern was that the main comparative advantage the FTs have is being able to accept a lower pay bracket to work in the field for the same experience level? There are definitely other areas in which we can exploit situations; we just have to keep thinking
Btw, I offer my apologies first if my posts sound too aggressive. Please point out to me if you think so... Thanks
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I feel that the government should give out more benefits to their citizens more than foreign talents but however FTs is a need in Singapore. As compared in working ability and working culture of Singapore locals to other developed country, no doubt we do need FTs to lead the locals in Singapore.
But still if we do not give out benefits to the FT as the same as citizens, how do we attract them here?
Hence, it is back to the same question. Is Singapore world class when their locals are not ? Should Singapore government slow down the fast pace of living in Singapore since their people cannot take the challenge ?
Sadly, it is always difficult for people to face the music in life.
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continute to sappork 66.6%
more good years ahead :)
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Originally posted by redDUST:
your point is valid if singapore is just starting out. however, there are already a few generations of singapore's entrenching their roots here. so, that sense of nationhood and loyalty it there. why bother with the pledge and `majulah singapura' if so....
FTs are here to fill a gap and sustain singapore's economic competitiveness. singapore is attractive to FTs whose own country lag behind singapore. most who came from developed countries would not settle here. they will see this as an opportunity to enrich themselves, experience a new culture and bone a few asian chicks and then go back with bragging rights.
this is a warped analogy, but in some ways, singapore is like a hooker. you extend this open invitation to anyone outside to come, stayover and have your fill as long as you contribute to its(singapore) well being economically, or is enrich by it. all in the name of survival.
Singapore is indeed just starting out. There might be like 3 or 4 generations for most people, but Singapore as a whole has only a 43 years independence history. Before that was a totally immigrant country.
Btw, the part about boning a few asian chicks is damn funny
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This time is 52:48, but pap wins all seats. 100% in parliament
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Originally posted by eagle:
Then again, as I have said in the previous page, last post, why compete in an area where you have relative low comparative advantage? No matter the criticisms of the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad, there's one thing which I feel is true: Blame the government, blame the tax structure, blame your boss, and you will be stuck in a rut, forever stuck in the 'rat race'.
If this is the case.. then why do we need a million dollar gahmen for ?
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Originally posted by Go:
But still if we do not give out benefits to the FT as the same as citizens, how do we attract them here?
Hence, it is back to the same question. Is Singapore world class when their locals are not ? Should Singapore government slow down the fast pace of living in Singapore since their people cannot take the challenge ?
Sadly, it is always difficult for people to face the music in life.
To answer this question.. you need to visit our FT's home country.
Then you will understand why they flock here.
And if US/Europe isn't so difficult to get into.. you think they'd rather not go there instead ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
If this is the case.. then why do we need a million dollar gahmen for ?
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My 2 cents worth.
The word "Foreign talent" has been abused consistently by the government over the years. Criterias have been lowered continuously over the years such that foreigners who are coming in are no longer 'talented', but are just, well, foreigners
Have seen so many sub-standard foreigners coming here, snatching a Singaporean's job, only to leave for greener pastures such as US, or other countries. We become a stepping stone, and inevitably, the ones that suffer are the Singaporeans who have no where to go.
Granted, we need foreign talent, but can we be more discerning of the word talent? Right now, any tom dick or harry is also considered a talent so long as he can command a pay of S$2,500 per month and above. What sort of talent is that?
And can we really be so sure that these people provide a skill that us Singaporeans cannot do? I see many Singaporeans get displaced from jobs that they probably excel in, because of some Indian FT that comes along and is better at boasting about his achievements, only for this FT to submit his resumes to other countries and leaving Singapore shortly after that.
Even USA has a new law to protect their own citizens (Thou shalt not hire a foreigner until thou can provide sufficient justification on why a US citizen cannot do the job). Why is our multi-million govt doing a full striptease (opening doors so widely that we are complete naked), and allowing people who have no principles or morals to come here, grab some gold, and then leave with the gold? And during this period, your own people suffer.
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
My 2 cents worth.
The word "Foreign talent" has been abused consistently by the government over the years. Criterias have been lowered continuously over the years such that foreigners who are coming in are no longer 'talented', but are just, well, foreigners
Have seen so many sub-standard foreigners coming here, snatching a Singaporean's job, only to leave for greener pastures such as US, or other countries. We become a stepping stone, and inevitably, the ones that suffer are the Singaporeans who have no where to go.
Granted, we need foreign talent, but can we be more discerning of the word talent? Right now, any tom dick or harry is also considered a talent so long as he can command a pay of S$2,500 per month and above. What sort of talent is that?
And can we really be so sure that these people provide a skill that us Singaporeans cannot do? I see many Singaporeans get displaced from jobs that they probably excel in, because of some Indian FT that comes along and is better at boasting about his achievements, only for this FT to submit his resumes to other countries and leaving Singapore shortly after that.
Even USA has a new law to protect their own citizens (Thou shalt not hire a foreigner until thou can provide sufficient justification on why a US citizen cannot do the job). Why is our multi-million govt doing a full striptease (opening doors so widely that we are complete naked), and allowing people who have no principles or morals to come here, grab some gold, and then leave with the gold? And during this period, your own people suffer.
A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within.- W. Durant
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Just get rid of PAP regime.
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I fully believe that the PAP has gone atrociously arrogant, and that they should have a big and painful fall like Taiwanese KMT or Malaysia's BN, so that they wake up their freaking idea, and learn how to treat their citizens properly.
I cannot believe words from Goh Chok Tong who said that raising the GST is unpopular policy, but its ok, because Singaporeans will just forget and vote for the PAP come next election.
I can tell you, come next election, if the stupid PAP-supporters or cheapo Singaporeans (who get bought over coz of some stupid hundred dollar payout) vote for the PAP and let them win big again, the first thing they will do after that is to increase the GST to 10%.
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Cos SG'reans chosy...
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
To answer this question.. you need to visit our FT's home country.
Then you will understand why they flock here.
And if US/Europe isn't so difficult to get into.. you think they'd rather not go there instead ?
To answer your question. Most people will want to be in a winning team. No doubt. FT will rather go to US than Singapore because Singapore is not even winning at all.And sad to say, the government is depending on FT to allow Singapore to gain an edge over the rest rather than depending on the locals.
It is a chicken and egg story with snowball effect. And to government's decision, FT is the one that is able to initiate the snowball effect.
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It is time to be rid of PAP rule.
I think we should begin a propaganda campaign to mobilise public opinion against the PAP.