When FT outnumbers locals, what would happen?
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
you did not reply to why european companies do not move out of europe when their IT salary is so high. they Expand overseas. but they do not migrate.
thus your logic that if IT department don't hire FT , companies will exit the pore is 1-sided.
its the sales and not the IT department, get it?
when u have 9:1 IT dept comprised of mostly Foreigners, u end up lowering the salary. is this an employment malpractice? employing true rare talents is reasonable. but employing non-talents takes away rice bowl from locals who are the ones who can sacrifice and defend the nation. the issue here is , is there an oversupply? lowering the cost ? why europe do not lower their citizen salary ? 1st worlds. highly expensive living. some more low low quality of life.
why europe companies do not crash with high IT cost?
reply directly if u are capable.
You explained it yourself
they Expand overseas
Tell me why don't they expand within their own countries? Any reason? There are still quite a number of jobless people in the EU you know? They can always not expand overseas, but within the EU and employ more people. But why not?
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Originally posted by eagle:
You explained it yourself
Tell me why don't they expand within their own countries? Any reason? There are still quite a number of jobless people in the EU you know? They can always not expand overseas, but within the EU and employ more people. But why not?
every competent company in the world expands overseas.
I am asking you why in europe the european countries do not need to rely on cheaper FT from asia?
since you say like a wise businessman and economist about FT good, locals bad.
huh? u better answer me.
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
every competent company in the world expands overseas.
I am asking you why in europe the european countries do not need to rely on cheaper FT from asia?
since you say like a wise businessman and economist about FT good, locals bad.
huh? u better answer me.
I have no idea why you would want to ask the same questions in 2 threads, but I shall play along with you.
I am asking you why in europe the european countries do not need to rely on cheaper FT from asia
It seems that you cannot accept a question reply that puts doubts on your conclusion. I shall tell you now that since the immigration labour laws are stricter on foreign talents, they will simply move operations overseas, to the place where cheaper FTs will come from. In addition, the salaries of the FTs in the countries of the FTs are usually cheaper than the salaries of FTs going to Europe to work.
I'm still asking you why they would expand overseas if you think they would do only employing locals in their countries. And finally, why would you think that every competent company in the world expands overseas? Other than being nearer to other sales markets, isn't it also because they seek foreign and cheaper talents since there's so much negativity on them in their own country?
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In addition, if companies are, as you said, employing more foreigners than Singaporeans, what do you think is the propensity for them to move their operations elsewhere in this region if the Singapore requires them to employ much more citizens, perhaps at a higher wage? Do you think, in the longer term, that they would move their operations to perhaps China to cut costs, or perhaps employ even cheaper workers there, or would they stay to pay higher wages for citizen workers whose productivity are not really higher than cheaper foreigners?
In the end, it was still PAP's policy that results in such a situation today. The reverse that you are asking for in the current situation cannot really be done without much lashback. As you have too mentioned, FTs are needed. It is the PAP policy on FTs that has something wrong with it. With better foresight, the current situation wouldn't have happened, and you wouldn't have complained.
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Originally posted by eagle:
In addition, if companies are, as you said, employing more foreigners than Singaporeans, what do you think is the propensity for them to move their operations elsewhere in this region if the Singapore requires them to employ much more citizens, perhaps at a higher wage? Do you think, in the longer term, that they would move their operations to perhaps China to cut costs, or perhaps employ even cheaper workers there, or would they stay to pay higher wages for citizen workers whose productivity are not really higher than cheaper foreigners?
In the end, it was still PAP's policy that results in such a situation today. The reverse that you are asking for in the current situation cannot really be done without much lashback. As you have too mentioned, FTs are needed. It is the PAP policy on FTs that has something wrong with it. With better foresight, the current situation wouldn't have happened, and you wouldn't have complained.
My point was europe is able to protect their citizen rice bowl and only rarely are asians hired. their IT staff is the world's highest paid. These all true 1st worlds.
Japan also succeeded without many FTs.
So is S.Korea.
I know u always try to say they have operations overseas hiring foreigners there.
Again, I will remind you that I am talking about japan / korean/ european citizens locally do not need to compete with foreigners in such a big way. 90-99% of their jobs are given to locals.
Again, and again, I tell you this. Talents, even if foreign should only be required if the skills needed is lacking. Else, unnecessarily allowing too many to come in or loosely controlling this influx or inefficiently controlling this aspect or oversight in this aspect does the citizens harm and injustice. If you need world record holders, not avail in the pore, to compete in olumpics, by all means. If you need foreign talent gubbymen officials, by all means, I have no objections, even if they do not ask for millions a year, i dont care. if you need inventors, gravely lacking and in shortage in the pore, by all means, if you can afford and attract them. IT is a very easy entry level skill. Why is there such a situation created where me and some forummers here have pointed out the 90:10 employment phenomenon?
You answer me. I urge you to answer me directly. dont beat about the bush.
You comprendo or not?
Tiah eh dong boh?
ting der dong mah?
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If more FT than local then, locals will be called LTs.
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
Tiah eh dong boh?
Tiah eh hiao boh..
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
If more FT than local then, locals will be called LTs.
yes, for certain jobs like IT, FTs outnumber locals, common to find such situation in many large companies here. based on my personal experience, as extreme as 90:10. Several here have also voiced their evidence that they too know of companies hiring FT:locals , 95:10.eagle does not admit this due to some strange reasons. maybe he is countering for the sake of countering.
Me and several others here are voicing up at our own expense. Voicing up for the rest of local IT staff. Not many poreans dare to voice up , even in this day and age of youtube, google, facebook, democracy.
poreans may appear modern but when it comes to voicing up. They are apathetic, conservative and kia.
1 generation of cultivated genes passed on to the next.
bad habbits die hard.
Yet, I will still continue to voice up at my own expense. For the good of the masses.
If i do not sacrifice for others, then wait for others to help me is it?
pragmatism, self-preservation. the end.
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If you are good i don't see why there's any worry someone will take over your job.
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Originally posted by fai:
If you are good i don't see why there's any worry someone will take over your job.
its very dangerous or scary that u interprete that i am afraid of losing my job that is why I report the facts here. maybe in some minor ways. natural. Every employee in the pore, everyday worry about this, in some ways. when appraisal comes, no one is worried right? zero worry hor.But the main issue on hand and discussed is the 90:10 ratio of employment. This is my main reason for asking.
The key word here is ratio.
As I said countless numerous endless times, FT is needed in some cases like when u dont have olumpic champion, u want fast results, go and get some world level sports person and offer him or her a piece of paper. that is understandable. When you talk about IT, an easy entry level job that locals can do, why is there a need to have 90:10?
If it is the case of Casino or F1, I can understand 90:10 if that is the case. since not many are skilled in these fields. But IT ? come on! who is not IT savvy nowadays? its so easy now compared to the past!
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If no one is losing their job then what is the arguement here?
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
My point was europe is able to protect their citizen rice bowl and only rarely are asians hired. their IT staff is the world's highest paid. These all true 1st worlds.
Japan also succeeded without many FTs.
So is S.Korea.
I know u always try to say they have operations overseas hiring foreigners there.
Again, I will remind you that I am talking about japan / korean/ european citizens locally do not need to compete with foreigners in such a big way. 90-99% of their jobs are given to locals.
Again, and again, I tell you this. Talents, even if foreign should only be required if the skills needed is lacking. Else, unnecessarily allowing too many to come in or loosely controlling this influx or inefficiently controlling this aspect or oversight in this aspect does the citizens harm and injustice. If you need world record holders, not avail in the pore, to compete in olumpics, by all means. If you need foreign talent gubbymen officials, by all means, I have no objections, even if they do not ask for millions a year, i dont care. if you need inventors, gravely lacking and in shortage in the pore, by all means, if you can afford and attract them. IT is a very easy entry level skill. Why is there such a situation created where me and some forummers here have pointed out the 90:10 employment phenomenon?
You answer me. I urge you to answer me directly. dont beat about the bush.
You comprendo or not?
Tiah eh dong boh?
ting der dong mah?
I have replied you directly that
since the immigration labour laws are stricter on foreign talents, they will simply move operations overseas, to the place where cheaper FTs will come from. In addition, the salaries of the FTs in the countries of the FTs are usually cheaper than the salaries of FTs going to Europe to work
How is that beating around the bush? Please explain. If you cannot understand the answer, please ask for a paraphrase. But instead, you would ask a totally different set of questions
Why is there such a situation created where me and some forummers here have pointed out the 90:10 employment phenomenon?
Even then, the answer has been pointed out so clearly to you.
PAP's policy that results in such a situation today. The reverse that you are asking for in the current situation cannot really be done without much lashback. As you have too mentioned, FTs are needed. It is the PAP policy on FTs that has something wrong with it. With better foresight, the current situation wouldn't have happened, and you wouldn't have complained.
You tell me yourself, are you dumb or what? You quoted the answer, yet you are asking me for the answer? What is your point here?
yes, for certain jobs like IT, FTs outnumber locals, common to find such situation in many large companies here. based on my personal experience, as extreme as 90:10. Several here have also voiced their evidence that they too know of companies hiring FT:locals , 95:10.
eagle does not admit this due to some strange reasons. maybe he is countering for the sake of countering.
Now don't need to put words into my mouth. It only shows how bad you are at comprehension. None of my statements have denied this fact. It is of no wonder you would find competition from FWs hard, simply because you cannot even understand simple sentences used in this thread.
It seems more likely that you are countering for the sake of countering, when I have merely started off by listing the fact that IT is a sector where the information can be passed around extremely fast because we are living in the information age. Thus, companies can always move their operations overseas instead of Singapore, and thus will have the motivation to do so if they are forced to employ more locals. Now tell me what's wrong with that?
I hope you have seen that I have already replied you long ago. I have no idea why you would be so insistent on an answer that has already been fed to you. Is it because you are speechless about the following?
Tell me why don't they expand within their own countries? Any reason? There are still quite a number of jobless people in the EU you know? They can always not expand overseas, but within the EU and employ more people. But why not?
It is a wonder why you would continuously avoid answering this question by telling me I have not gave you a reply when in fact, it has been spoonfed to you not only once.
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i can't find this 90:10 figure anywhere on the net.
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Originally posted by fai:
i can't find this 90:10 figure anywhere on the net.
I wasn't even countering him on that point. No idea why this person would still be so adamant in misunderstanding after so many exchanges.
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I wish to debate base on reliable sources and not speculation.
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Originally posted by fai:
I wish to debate base on reliable sources and not speculation.
You will see that he will only debate with you based on what he sees with his eyes.
Also, the fact which I have mentioned that we are living in the information age such that IT info can be transmitted around at high speeds is not any speculated fact.
And especially this sentence
To him, his sacrifice is only to complain (voice up in his words) in this forum, and that's all. Since he is in the field, he should go out to start a similar IT company and employ 90% locals. But nah... he's still waiting for something to happen.If i do not sacrifice for others, then wait for others to help me is it?
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Never mind, Sg married FT and we become one big family.
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USA, largest concentration of foreign talents.
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Originally posted by fai:
i can't find this 90:10 figure anywhere on the net.
are you in IT line?which company?
why must it be in the internet?
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Originally posted by fai:
USA, largest concentration of foreign talents.
Europe does not rely on asian FTs who are cheaper. Way cheaper.Why ?
When I say europe, I mean inside europe.
When say european companies, I mean companies inside europe, physically operating there, employing the europeans there physically.
Europe IT staff are paid so much higher. Same skillsets.
Why europe does not rely so greatly on asians?
Why do european companies continue to be successful? Why is europe so successful without relying on cheaper asians?
Why they do not replace all their expensive europeans with cheaper asian? save cost right according to eagle.
its alright, eager, i am sure you do not have the answer.
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
are you in IT line?which company?
why must it be in the internet?
I am asking you to produce solid evidence of your source of information. If you can't i will presume you are lying.
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
Europe does not rely on asian FTs who are cheaper. Way cheaper.Why ?
When I say europe, I mean inside europe.
When say european companies, I mean companies inside europe, physically operating there, employing the europeans there physically.
Europe IT staff are paid so much higher. Same skillsets.
Why europe does not rely so greatly on asians?
Why do european companies continue to be successful? Why is europe so successful without relying on cheaper asians?
Why they do not replace all their expensive europeans with cheaper asian? save cost right according to eagle.
its alright, eager, i am sure you do not have the answer.
Never mind, it seems extremely clear that you have no idea why companies move operations overseas. All your questions has been answered, yet you continued to ask for them. Quite clear that you just want to act dumb. Suit yourself. You are already soon becoming a joke of this forum.
Or do you still require me to repost all the answers back for you again?
And I don't need to mention to you that your info that "europe is successful without relying on cheaper asian" is totally wrong. Wonderfully inaccurate fact. And you are now giving me a wrong fact and asking me to explain. You should take a trip to Europe. Or maybe it is clearer if you go to Paris, to see the number of Africans working there. Or Germany to see the number of Turkish and those from Somalia, Israel, etc, working there. This is already excluding the number of PRCs already there.
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Originally posted by fai:
I am asking you to produce solid evidence of your source of information. If you can't i will presume you are lying.
I almost want to laugh. I can almost swear you are eager. But I will entertain you...
Many forummers already have witnessed the same situation in their companies.That is why I asked where you work .
Your company is it big global MNC?
does it have a IT dept?
if so, pay a little visit there.
all HR personnel can understand what I mean.
If you want concrete official figures, and you believe in those, go and get statements on every large MNC IT department employment statistics. I am not saying all companies are like this. As I have always said, these are based on my personal experience and observations having worked in numerous large MNCs in their IT departments. 90:10 are the worst cases I experienced. I have experienced many other that are either 85:10 or 90:10 and some between 70 - 80 %.
So, I counter ask you. Are you saying that IT departments in the pore do not have companies employing 90:10 ratio of foreign workers in their IT department compared to locals hired?
Are you really saying that ? ZERO?
say it.
Even if its not all companies like this, remember, my point is this is a troubling phenomenon. The key purpose to raise the concern and let others be informed. Some work in non-IT depts and may never really know the extent of the problem. They may only meet the tech support. They do not know the army of FTs in the IT dept who are working in the backend.
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Originally posted by balance_else_complacent:
I almost want to laugh. I can almost swear you are eager. But I will entertain you...
Many forummers already have witnessed the same situation in their companies.That is why I asked where you work .
Your company is it big global MNC?
does it have a IT dept?
if so, pay a little visit there.
all HR personnel can understand what I mean.
If you want concrete official figures, and you believe in those, go and get statements on every large MNC IT department employment statistics. I am not saying all companies are like this. As I have always said, these are based on my personal experience and observations having worked in numerous large MNCs in their IT departments. 90:10 are the worst cases I experienced. I have experienced many other that are either 95:10 or 90:10 and some between 70 - 80 %.
So, I counter ask you. Are you saying that IT departments in the pore do not have companies employing 90:10 ratio of foreign workers in their IT department compared to locals hired?
Are you really saying that ? ZERO?
say it.
Please list down the "many forumers".
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"When I say europe, I mean inside europe."
From this sentence i can conclude you have a intelligence level on par with George w. Bush.