What should be the minimum annual wages for Singaporeans?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
You know what is minimum wage anot huh ?
Do YOU?Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.
A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.
You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.
Employees get higher pay and would agree, but employers would not. So, they will fire workers and reduce demand for workers. Yet, the supply for workers who agree to this new pay will not fall, in fact, they would rise! So you get job shortage, and a resulting lower productivity in return for this so called welfare.
The consequences will only show in the long-term.
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Originally posted by Eddie Lee:
Some of your employess will always be less productive than others.
I had planned on only firing two people. But by sacking the third person I was able to give raises to my better employees.
Why didnt you fire them before the minimum wage raise? If they are less productive and you can cope with lesser, you should have done it and earn more profits.
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When wages are artificially increased companies usually just pass those costs to their costumers. So even though unskilled workers may be making a little more money. That money is worth a little less.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Do YOU?Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.
A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.
You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.
Employees get higher pay and would agree, but employers would not. So, they will fire workers and reduce demand for workers. Yet, the supply for workers who agree to this new pay will not fall, in fact, they would rise! So you get job shortage, and a resulting lower productivity in return for this so called welfare.
The consequences will only show in the long-term.
So minimum wage set at any level would hurt the economy in the long run? even if its $1? $ 2.50? how about $4? any difference?
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Hi Kilua
I didn't fire them sooner because the owner had set guidelines on how many employees she wanted to work on each shift. When the minimum wage was increased I was able to convince her to allow me to get rid of some of the dead weight. And to reward the people that were hard workers.
There were also a lot of adjustments that I had to make to keep the restaurant running smoothly. It is always harder to keep your customers happy with less employess.
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Originally posted by kilua:
So minimum wage set at any level would hurt the economy in the long run? even if its $1? $ 2.50? how about $4? any difference?
Like I said, if you set a minimum wage below the current one, might as well not have one at all?It is not worth the admin work needed to enforce it.
And yes, the extra $$ needed to enforce this is another disadvantage.
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Many people forget the most fundumental characteristic of a market: The implicit agreement between the employer and employee. This is a form of the 'invisible hand'.
So if you guys push for a minimum wage in the name of welfare, then you guys are also forgetting that personal choices will be at stake since people CHOSE to work despite the low wages.
Instead of minimum wages, we should push for more accessible education and training, meaning subsidising and creating more job fairs and so on to lift these people from the low-paying job.
When they move on to a higher-paid one, the low-paid one will experience a reduction on workers and the pay will naturally go up there.
Of course this leads to another problem because all these assumes a closed-market context. In actual fact, the increase in pay would simply entice foreign workers and depress the pay again.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Do YOU?Haha......so many economies have repeatedly shown that a minimum wage hurts more in the long run.
A market exists because there's demand and supply. The pay exists because it is agreed implicitly upon by employees and employers.
You're essentially removing that equation by introducing such a law.
Employees get higher pay and would agree, but employers would not. So, they will fire workers and reduce demand for workers. Yet, the supply for workers who agree to this new pay will not fall, in fact, they would rise! So you get job shortage, and a resulting lower productivity in return for this so called welfare.
The consequences will only show in the long-term.
Yes true.. demand and supply.
You also know why sweat shops exists ?. Yes got demand got supply lor. But is that the right thing to do ?
Have you been to Vietnam ? or India ? and see how people are scraping by with meagre income ?.. Demand and supply.... it works.
You student ? Or working ? Singaporean or Foreign talent ?
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The question being asked is that the current minimum wages or the current level of wages are not enough to meet the standard living here.
Will raising the wages help? What do you think caused our living standards to be that high in the first place? It is us. The very people who are complaining that wages are low.
Living Standards are a vicious cycle. The biggest reasons for raise of living standards are when people spend and spend and then expect more. How do they spend and expect more? When they have more money.
I saw somewhere in the thread that by raising minimum wages, we will see that people will spend their wages to reduce the debt rather than spend more. I guess you are terribly wrong. Guess whats the reason behind the huge number of people reported to be "CARD SLAVES". People who spend more than they should using their credit cards not on paying their debts but for so called their "living standards". As a result they have to declare bankruptcy.
There is already a wage guidelines out there. Like it or not, this is a competitive society. I am a graduate who has a great job in junior management. My pay is not too bad but there are others who are same age as me earning more, driving bigger cars, going to more expensive places. Do I yearn to be like them? I will strive but I dun envy them. At the end of the day, its about being ambitious but yet being contented. And if you want something, go out there and fight for it.
Surely you do not expect to go fishing and expect the fish to queue up and let you fish them. You are expected to fight for it and you will expect the fish to struggle and fight to their death. Its the same and the reality of this society.
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Originally posted by gasband:
The question being asked is that the current minimum wages or the current level of wages are not enough to meet the standard living here.
Will raising the wages help? What do you think caused our living standards to be that high in the first place? It is us. The very people who are complaining that wages are low.
Living Standards are a vicious cycle. The biggest reasons for raise of living standards are when people spend and spend and then expect more. How do they spend and expect more? When they have more money.
I saw somewhere in the thread that by raising minimum wages, we will see that people will spend their wages to reduce the debt rather than spend more. I guess you are terribly wrong. Guess whats the reason behind the huge number of people reported to be "CARD SLAVES". People who spend more than they should using their credit cards not on paying their debts but for so called their "living standards". As a result they have to declare bankruptcy.
There is already a wage guidelines out there. Like it or not, this is a competitive society. I am a graduate who has a great job in junior management. My pay is not too bad but there are others who are same age as me earning more, driving bigger cars, going to more expensive places. Do I yearn to be like them? I will strive but I dun envy them. At the end of the day, its about being ambitious but yet being contented. And if you want something, go out there and fight for it.
Surely you do not expect to go fishing and expect the fish to queue up and let you fish them. You are expected to fight for it and you will expect the fish to struggle and fight to their death. Its the same and the reality of this society.
Junior management is which industry ? And if a foreigner is to come to your boss and tell him he is interested in your job at a 40% discounted pay arn't you essentially screwed ?
We are talking about putting a minimum wage to stop wage depression due to foreign influx. You are talking about our spending pattern ???????/
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes true.. demand and supply.
You also know why sweat shops exists ?. Yes got demand got supply lor. But is that the right thing to do ?
Have you been to Vietnam ? or India ? and see how people are scraping by with meagre income ?.. Demand and supply.... it works.
You student ? Or working ? Singaporean or Foreign talent ?
THAT argument has been wrung for very long.....it is not to say that such places are great places to work.
But you clearly forgot that these people made the CHOICE. And you, like all those sceptics chose to ignore this very very important point.
Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?
Hence, I just trotted out a solution called reformative training. Unfortunately this is not a popular choice as most govts only choose to see themselves re-elected in the short-run, while this is a long-term solution. The short-term soltuion is of course to impose minimum wages which simply blinds you guys.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
THAT argument has been wrung for very long.....it is not to say that such places are great places to work.
But you clearly forgot that these people made the CHOICE. And you, like all those sceptics chose to ignore this very very important point.
Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?
Hence, I just trotted out a solution called reformative training. Unfortunately this is not a popular choice as most govts only choose to see themselves re-elected in the short-run, while this is a long-term solution. The short-term soltuion is of course to impose minimum wages which simply blinds you guys.
"Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?"
You call that CHOICE ?. Please lah. TAT IS NO CHOICE !!!!
And you think we don;t have reformative training ? WE DO. It's call " LEARN untill you DIE" ok ?
But after reformative training.. a FT comes to the boss and say.. I work for you for half the price of this reformed chap.. and the FT walks away with the job.. TAT is call DEMAND AND SUPPLY.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Junior management is which industry ? And if a foreigner is to come to your boss and tell him he is interested in your job at a 40% discounted pay arn't you essentially screwed ?
We are talking about putting a minimum wage to stop wage depression due to foreign influx. You are talking about our spending pattern ???????/
I am in the Lighting Industry. Maybe I am confident. But if someone foreign can come over and tell my boss and show to my boss that he is as capable as me in my job and can still take a lower pay, my boss has every right to replace me. I say that this is society and I myself would not expect that everything is given to me on a platter and not fight for it.
I talked about spending pattern because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that by increasing wages, it would not affect inflation BECAUSE people will spend their extra money to reduce debts rather than spend. So I am just explaining that this observation is incorrect.
Cheers!
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes... Singapore remains competitive.. but Singaporean's are suffering.
Actually, it's a gamble in a way.By giving companies the flexibility to determine their own wages (which almost always translates to low wages), our people will be sandwiched by this so-called competitive pay and the rising cost of living.
However, if the government legislates a minimum wage system, MNCs will shift their operations elsewhere while SMEs may just close down, which will lead to massive unemployment. When that results, salary amounts become totally irrelevant.
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Originally posted by gasband:
I am in the Lighting Industry. Maybe I am confident. But if someone foreign can come over and tell my boss and show to my boss that he is as capable as me in my job and can still take a lower pay, my boss has every right to replace me. I say that this is society and I myself would not expect that everything is given to me on a platter and not fight for it.
I talked about spending pattern because someone earlier in the thread mentioned that by increasing wages, it would not affect inflation BECAUSE people will spend their extra money to reduce debts rather than spend. So I am just explaining that this observation is incorrect.
Cheers!
Yes it will affect inflation. But if you increase wage and the inflation increase.. it's a balancing act. Both arrow going up.
But currently in Singapore.. we have a depressing wage and a inflation.. what does it equates to ?...One arrow going down , another going up.
Yes you are confident and you probably think you deserved to be fired. But if you go around to 50 companies after you got fired and everyone tells you .. You have to take a job at 50% less than your first job... can you take it ???
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
"Think. No sweatshop = no $$. No $$ how to even dream of going beyond that?"
You call that CHOICE ?. Please lah. TAT IS NO CHOICE !!!!
And you think we don;t have reformative training ? WE DO. It's call " LEARN untill you DIE" ok ?
But after reformative training.. a FT comes to the boss and say.. I work for you for half the price of this reformed chap.. and the FT walks away with the job.. TAT is call DEMAND AND SUPPLY.
Not choice then is what? Contrary to stereotypical potrayal, few of these workers were forced. The few who were, were unfortunately done in by unscrupulous producers who ironically tend to come from their own country. MNCs simply can't afford to do that.
You underestimate the power of choice.
And....I did mention that FT is the issue here. My post was not that short, but I would appreciate if you at least read here and there.
You're right about the last sentence. That is the problem we face as a open economy. But minimum wages hurt us more. Because FTs simply float to other countries while we stay and taste the after-effects.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes it will affect inflation. But if you increase wage and the inflation increase.. it's a balancing act. Both arrow going up.
But currently in Singapore.. we have a depressing wage and a inflation.. what does it equates to ?...One arrow going down , another going up.
Yes you are confident and you probably think you deserved to be fired. But if you go around to 50 companies after you got fired and everyone tells you .. You have to take a job at 50% less than your first job... can you take it ???
The problem is that wages increment impacts inflation. It will be balanced if people will curb their spending even their wages are increased. Unfortunately we see people spending more than they can whenever they get some money. My own family already have classic examples of these people. Get $10, spend $15. If this is so, when will this cycle end? If inflation increases because I spend more, then tomorrow I go back to my company and say, Hey u must increase my wage because I need to spend more. When will this end? -
Originally posted by marcolow:
Actually, it's a gamble in a way.By giving companies the flexibility to determine their own wages (which almost always translates to low wages), our people will be sandwiched by this so-called competitive pay and the rising cost of living.
However, if the government legislates a minimum wage system, MNCs will shift their operations elsewhere while SMEs may just close down, which will lead to massive unemployment. When that results, salary amounts become totally irrelevant.
Minimum wage does not equals FIXING wages.
If companies feels that they want to retain the good employees.. they will give higher than minimum wage.
MNCs will not shift their operations elsewhere unless the infrastructure and tax structures changes and adversely affects their operation and/or profitability.
If MNCs wants cheap labor ..they'd have gone to CHINA or INDIA already.
If the gahment don't want to implement minimum wage.. they should at least control inflations.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes it will affect inflation. But if you increase wage and the inflation increase.. it's a balancing act. Both arrow going up.
But currently in Singapore.. we have a depressing wage and a inflation.. what does it equates to ?...One arrow going down , another going up.
It will happen in other countries but not here.Why? Your $$ goes to imports here. The theory of increased spending = inflation is not wrong. But because this only applies if you spend on locally-produced goods. Do you know that for every $$, most of it flies off to other countries?
The only effect we have if we spend more here is simply a current account deficit if we overspend.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Not choice then is what? Contrary to stereotypical potrayal, few of these workers were forced. The few who were, were unfortunately done in by unscrupulous producers who ironically tend to come from their own country. MNCs simply can't afford to do that.
You underestimate the power of choice.
And....I did mention that FT is the issue here. My post was not that short, but I would appreciate if you at least read here and there.
You're right about the last sentence. That is the problem we face as a open economy. But minimum wages hurt us more. Because FTs simply float to other countries while we stay and taste the after-effects.
Yes it is NO CHOICE.. because I talked to people who worked there.
They had no choice because it's either they take the shitty job or his/her family die of hunger.
Their children have no money to buy medicines... and they drink long kang water.
You tell me.. got choice anot ?
Since SG gahment want OPEN door policy shouldn't they have at least implemented some kind of policy to protect Singaporeans in the first place ??????
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
It will happen in other countries but not here.Why? Your $$ goes to imports here. The theory of increased spending = inflation is not wrong. But because this only applies if you spend on locally-produced goods. Do you know that for every $$, most of it flies off to other countries?
The only effect we have if we spend more here is simply a current account deficit if we overspend.
?????????
What will not happen in SG ??? YOu mean inflation ?????
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Instead of minimum wages, we should push for more accessible education and training, meaning subsidising and creating more job fairs and so on to lift these people from the low-paying job.
this sound mightily like a government tagline.
minimum wage advocation is not for across the board. please get this right so a meaningful discussion can prevail. if you are currently a manager, or even a fresh grad getting into his/her first job, the market rate dictates the wage. i am not sure about others, but i will not advocate minimum wage for these group of employees.
i support minimum wage for menial, entry level jobs such as a sweeper, gardener, cleaner, etc. the rising cost of living will not wait for one's wage to catch up. the train left the station already. for a singaporean living here, especially those who are less educated and less mobile, to be subjected to harsh competition from china, india, vietnam or the philippines who is willing to take a fraction of the pay for a particular job is not fair. say the government does its homework and decide that S$1100 is the minimum sum that a poor can get by monthly, it should then decide on the range of jobs that should have a starting pay of S1100. then, if the foreigners want to come and compete for these relatively `high' pay job, they are welcome to do so. then they can pit their skillsets and shows that they are better than singaporeans. no quarrel here. the best person for the job wins, regardless of nationality. but if they come and say, "psk, psk, i can work for 40% less....", then there is no story here. Singaporeans are definitely marginalized. no wonder those in these strata of society are pissed off.
singapore compete on the ground of efficiency and effectiveness, a hi-tech no corruption environment. it is already not the cheapest place to do business. but it has its distinct advantages. it continues to pay high wages to talents, locals or foreigners.
However, for the government to flip the coin when it comes to entry level jobs and poorer singaporeans; and say that we need to be as cheap as possible is a fucking, outright hyprocrisy. even when sweeping the floor, we need someone to do a good job sweeping and not some half baked job because the sweeper comes cheap. if we can need to pay TOP wage for the man at the top, why can't we extend the same logic to the all levels of job, including the sweepers and the guy who clears up the mess on the table the richer singaporeans leave at the foodcourt/hawker center? well, let's not talk top wages. let's start with FAIR wage first.
must you all be in the position of these `cornered' singaporeans and experience first hand the hardship before it becomes obvious?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes it is NO CHOICE.. because I talked to people who worked there.
They had no choice because it's either they take the shitty job or his/her family die of hunger.
Their children have no money to buy medicines... and they drink long kang water.
You tell me.. got choice anot ?
Since SG gahment want OPEN door policy shouldn't they have at least implemented some kind of policy to protect Singaporeans in the first place ??????
Then it is a choice.As usual, you failed to see that.
Then you still have the cheek to suggest a minimum wage law which will simply see the companies run to other countries causing misery to the newly-unemployed?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Then it is a choice.As usual, you failed to see that.
Then you still have the cheek to suggest a minimum wage law which will simply see the companies run to other countries causing misery to the newly-unemployed?
Wow.. you sure is a cold hearted girl.
Are you even a Singaporean ???
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Originally posted by redDUST:
this sound mightily like a government tagline.
minimum wage advocation is not for across the board. please get this right so a meaningful discussion can prevail. if you are currently a manager, or even a fresh grad getting into his/her first job, the market rate dictates the wage. i am not sure about others, but i will not advocate minimum wage for these group of employees.
i support minimum wage for menial, entry level jobs such as a sweeper, gardener, cleaner, etc. the rising cost of living will not wait for one's wage to catch up. the train left the station already. for a singaporean living here, especially those who are less educated and less mobile, to be subjected to harsh competition from china, india, vietnam or the philippines who is willing to take a fraction of the pay for a particular job is not fair. say the government does its homework and decide that S$1100 is the minimum sum that a poor can get by monthly, it should then decide on the range of jobs that should have a starting pay of S1100. then, if the foreigners want to come and compete for these relatively `high' pay job, they are welcome to do so. then they can pit their skillsets and shows that they are better than singaporeans. no quarrel here. the best person for the job wins, regardless of nationality. but if they come and say, "psk, psk, i can work for 40% less....", then there is no story here. Singaporeans are definitely marginalized. no wonder those in these strata of society are pissed off.
singapore compete on the ground of efficiency and effectiveness, a hi-tech no corruption environment. it is already not the cheapest place to do business. but it has its distinct advantages. it continues to pay high wages to talents, locals or foreigners.
However, for the government to flip the coin when it comes to entry level jobs and poorer singaporeans; and say that we need to be as cheap as possible is a fucking, outright hyprocrisy. even when sweeping the floor, we need someone to do a good job sweeping and not some half baked job because the sweeper comes cheap. if we can need to pay TOP wage for the man at the top, why can't we extend the same logic to the all levels of job, including the sweepers and the guy who clears up the mess on the table the richer singaporeans leave at the foodcourt/hawker center? well, let's not talk top wages. let's start with FAIR wage first.
must you all be in the position of these `cornered' singaporeans and experience first hand the hardship before it becomes obvious?
Why it sounds like a govt tagline? Sometimes I am happy to see PAP run the show......because in the hands of other parties, if we go by their speeches, really can't imagine what would happen to our economy. Our govt is well-known in being rationale and practical in running the economy and will choose to ignore people if they see it as unhelpful.Woah.....if FTs come and compete for the job because of the higher pay, they are welcomed to do so??? Do you make sense? Ask yourself. Wouldn't this lead to job shortage internally?