What should be the minimum annual wages for Singaporeans?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Wow.. you sure is a cold hearted girl.
Are you even a Singaporean ???
Sigh.....it is really hard to convince people when they choose not to do it the hard way.
Ok, look at it this way. Didn't we start out as a labour-intensive economy? What would have happened if we set a minimum-wage law instead of concentrating on education?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Sigh.....it is really hard to convince people when they choose not to do it the hard way.
Ok, look at it this way. Didn't we start out as a labour-intensive economy? What would have happened if we set a minimum-wage law instead of concentrating on education?
Umm harlow. ? The year now is 2008.
So are you Singaporean or not ????
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Why it sounds like a govt tagline? Sometimes I am happy to see PAP run the show......because in the hands of other parties, if we go by their speeches, really can't imagine what would happen to our economy. Our govt is well-known in being rationale and practical in running the economy and will choose to ignore people if they see it as unhelpful.Woah.....if FTs come and compete for the job because of the higher pay, they are welcomed to do so??? Do you make sense? Ask yourself. Wouldn't this lead to job shortage internally?
then don't you think it is the job of your DEAR government to decide its labour policy to allow or disallow foreigners in? whether there is a shortage or not, it is all market play that the government can tweak the knobs on. the opposites is exactly what is happening now. open the floodgates and all hell breaks loose.
well, i can think of a few good men from abroad who can do a better job than the current government. they probably cost a fraction of our million dollar ministers. can they apply?
and why cheap wages doesn't apply to these talented individuals from the `top'?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
then don't you think it is the job of your DEAR government to decide its labour policy to allow or disallow foreigners in? whether there is a shortage or not, it is all market play that the government can tweak the knobs on. the opposites is exactly what is happening now. open the floodgates and all hell breaks loose.
well, i can think of a few good men who can do a better job than the government from abroad. they probably cost a fraction of our million dollar ministers. can they apply?
NO.Why?
You do that and Australia or any other country will do that. How do you like tasting your own medicine?
The solution is education and training to compete with the FTs through productivity.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Umm harlow. ? The year now is 2008.
So are you Singaporean or not ????
Obviously.
So isn't it proven?S'pore rised with the other East Asian tigers by opening up their markets and education rather than focusing on protecting their labour market!
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
NO.Why?
You do that and Australia or any other country will do that. How do you like tasting your own medicine?
The solution is education and training to compete with the FTs through productivity.
train and become what? tell me what skills you can train NOW that the foreigners now lack and cannot compete with singaporeans? nadda. i can't think of one.
you immersed too much into the government literature and you come out muddle headed.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Obviously.
So isn't it proven?S'pore rised with the other East Asian tigers by opening up their markets and education rather than focusing on protecting their labour market!
You know what opening up their markets means ???
Education cannot be concurrent with protecting labor interests ???
Muddle headed indeed..LOL
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Our govt is well-known ...... will choose to ignore people if they see it as unhelpful.you nail it in the head.
the government is elected by the people. the exception is singapore. it is always a shoo-in on nomination day, thanks to the unscrupulous tactics the ruling party play.
the government exists to serve the people. here, the poorer are paid lips service. $500 here and $200 there.
i say make them productive and get them a proper job that they are paid a fair wage, have pride in doing their job well and yet maintain life dignity. nobody likes a hand-out, even the poor if they can help it.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
You know what opening up their markets means ???
Education cannot be concurrent with protecting labor interests ???
Muddle headed indeed..LOL
Die.....your concept is utterly wrong.If we need to grow, you need to open your market. But if you don't educate, wouldn't your labour market get overtaken by FTs? And FTs mean outflowing $$?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
you nail it in the head.
the government is elected by the people. the exception is singapore. it is always a shoo-in on nomination day, thanks to the unscrupulous tactics the ruling party play.
the government exists to serve the people. here, the poorer are paid lips service. $500 here and $200 there.
i say make them productive and get them a proper job that they are paid a fair wage, have pride in doing their job well and yet maintain life dignity. nobody likes a hand-out, even the poor if they can help it.
That's a fair statement.Unfortunately this tagline has been adopted by the PAP rather than the WP. To benefit individuals, you need to benefit them collectively and put a safety net to help those below. But minimum wages are hardly the way the best to do so.
As proven in my arguments with Ms Jojo, if you keep listening to the people, there won't be an end to the problems solved and created, make-believe or not.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Die.....your concept is utterly wrong.If we need to grow, you need to open your market. But if you don't educate, wouldn't your labour market get overtaken by FTs? And FTs mean outflowing $$?
Concept ?LOL.. you're a real joker you know ?
Open market is to invite foreign investors , not foreign laborers lah.. aiyohhh...
Lemme guess.. you're a student.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
That's a fair statement.Unfortunately this tagline has been adopted by the PAP rather than the WP. To benefit individuals, you need to benefit them collectively and put a safety net to help those below. But minimum wages are hardly the way the best to do so.
As proven in my arguments with Ms Jojo, if you keep listening to the people, there won't be an end to the problems solved and created, make-believe or not.
Yes , you are right.. the gahmen should just shut the people out.
Afterall.. they are paid millions.. who cares about the people ? Tell the people to go eat shyt. They die their business. Right ?
HURRAAHHHHH !!!!
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Die.....your concept is utterly wrong.If we need to grow, you need to open your market. But if you don't educate, wouldn't your labour market get overtaken by FTs? And FTs mean outflowing $$?
you need to understand that this is not a zero sum game. a shrewd government will maintain a good balance. `opening the market' is obviously the flavor of the decade.
you, together with the PAP, will be unduly worried come the US election. when this is over, and if the democrats wins, FTA will be put in the cold storage because the 2 presidential nominees recognize that FTA has marginalized its own country and people.
the fact that singapore is run by techocrats with herd mentality is not helping. it never leads, it always watches on the side and if things are proven to be good, then singapore jumps in. so, i will see if singapore maintains that totally open economy concept or backtrack.
and you looked like the herd of the herd.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Concept ?LOL.. you're a real joker you know ?
Open market is to invite foreign investors , not foreign laborers lah.. aiyohhh...
Lemme guess.. you're a student.
Wow.You amaze me. Why shouldn't FTs come with FDIs and other investments including loans?
redust> Yep, another fair statement. You need a fair balance. But why shouldn't we ride on a wave? So it is wrong to ride on China now?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Wow.You amaze me. Why shouldn't FTs come with FDIs and other investments including loans?
redust> Yep, another fair statement. You need a fair balance. But why shouldn't we ride on a wave? So it is wrong to ride on China now?
LOL...!!!!
FYI: The FTs we are talking about here.. are not related to FDIs.
The FTs we are talking about.. are foreigners who will one day make your dear parents whom are giving you allowance and paying your school fees.. JOBLESS.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
LOL...!!!!
FYI: The FTs we are talking about here.. are not related to FDIs.
The FTs we are talking about.. are foreigners who will one day make your dear parents whom are giving you allowance and paying your school fees.. JOBLESS.
So how can we expect no FT to come with inestors? -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
So how can we expect no FT to come with inestors?May I know.. what are your parents's occupation ?
Perhaps it can help me explain to you more clearly about what kind of FTs we are refering to.
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Foreign investment will always mean a certain amount of FT.
But that also means more jobs for locals that wouldn't otherwise exist.
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Originally posted by gasband:
The problem is that wages increment impacts inflation. It will be balanced if people will curb their spending even their wages are increased. Unfortunately we see people spending more than they can whenever they get some money. My own family already have classic examples of these people. Get $10, spend $15. If this is so, when will this cycle end? If inflation increases because I spend more, then tomorrow I go back to my company and say, Hey u must increase my wage because I need to spend more. When will this end?I have been saying this recently in the forum, just in a different form... Many people spend over their means, and the only thing they do to salvage is to ask for a pay raise, and nothing else. Don't get the raise, then blame the company and the government.
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sum ppl deserve less.
sum ppl deserve more.
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Originally posted by redDUST:
this sound mightily like a government tagline.
minimum wage advocation is not for across the board. please get this right so a meaningful discussion can prevail. if you are currently a manager, or even a fresh grad getting into his/her first job, the market rate dictates the wage. i am not sure about others, but i will not advocate minimum wage for these group of employees.
i support minimum wage for menial, entry level jobs such as a sweeper, gardener, cleaner, etc. the rising cost of living will not wait for one's wage to catch up. the train left the station already. for a singaporean living here, especially those who are less educated and less mobile, to be subjected to harsh competition from china, india, vietnam or the philippines who is willing to take a fraction of the pay for a particular job is not fair. say the government does its homework and decide that S$1100 is the minimum sum that a poor can get by monthly, it should then decide on the range of jobs that should have a starting pay of S1100. then, if the foreigners want to come and compete for these relatively `high' pay job, they are welcome to do so. then they can pit their skillsets and shows that they are better than singaporeans. no quarrel here. the best person for the job wins, regardless of nationality. but if they come and say, "psk, psk, i can work for 40% less....", then there is no story here. Singaporeans are definitely marginalized. no wonder those in these strata of society are pissed off.
singapore compete on the ground of efficiency and effectiveness, a hi-tech no corruption environment. it is already not the cheapest place to do business. but it has its distinct advantages. it continues to pay high wages to talents, locals or foreigners.
However, for the government to flip the coin when it comes to entry level jobs and poorer singaporeans; and say that we need to be as cheap as possible is a fucking, outright hyprocrisy. even when sweeping the floor, we need someone to do a good job sweeping and not some half baked job because the sweeper comes cheap. if we can need to pay TOP wage for the man at the top, why can't we extend the same logic to the all levels of job, including the sweepers and the guy who clears up the mess on the table the richer singaporeans leave at the foodcourt/hawker center? well, let's not talk top wages. let's start with FAIR wage first.
must you all be in the position of these `cornered' singaporeans and experience first hand the hardship before it becomes obvious?
This part I mentioned many times:
i support minimum wage for menial, entry level jobs such as a sweeper, gardener, cleaner, etc. the rising cost of living will not wait for one's wage to catch up.
I support this part too.
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Originally posted by Eddie Lee:
Foreign investment will always mean a certain amount of FT.
But that also means more jobs for locals that wouldn't otherwise exist.
Fair statement. As I have again mentioned in another thread before, there will definitely be a trickle down effect.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
NO.Why?
You do that and Australia or any other country will do that. How do you like tasting your own medicine?
The solution is education and training to compete with the FTs through productivity.
The solution is not to compete through productivity. Listen to the government on this part and you will forever be stuck in such a never-ending race. So what if you have gone and take another course to up your productivity? Very very soon, another FT with better productivity will come along and compete. Then you take another course to upgrade yourself. Then another better productivity FT come along again. This is a never ending cycle.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
No, minimum wage should be fix according to the grades. Positions which are prone to wage competitions from FTs .
Example.
Low grade min income $A/hr ( Cleaners, Domestic helpers, Construction workers)
Lower middle grades min income $B/hr ( Junior clericals/administrative, assistant/helpers etc)
Middle grade min income $C/hr ( Engineers, Teachers, Technical positions, Middle management executives etc)
Upper grade income .. no minimum wage since it wouldn't matter anyway. ( Doctors, Bankers, CEOs etc )
This is completely ridiculous - a minimum wage seeks to ensure the basic needs of the lowest strata of society are adequately taken care of, not ensuring you get a pay that commensurates with your ability to reflect your status or redefine the social stratification.
The only variation in minimum wages I know of are those which set different guidelines for different cities (within the same country) due to the differing cost of living, which makes perfect sense. The Chinese adopt this system and plans are afoot in the UK to increase the minimum wage in London...
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Originally posted by Eddie Lee:
I don't believe in a minimum wage. Such things should be determined by the marketplace. If a job does not pay enough don't take it!
If nobody wants to work for a particular company because they do not pay enough. That company will have no choice but to offer higher wages.
That would only make sense if you had sound legislations and policies in place. Without any effective functioning trade unions nor any credible opposition in parliament to hold a bunch of despots to account for the seemingly foolhardy policy of pursuing an open-door policy to foreigners just to induce an artificial wage suppression to woo foreign investors with its provision of a cheap source of labour (both skilled and unskilled), what sort of market forces are you talking about?The brand of free-market economy in this regard that exists in this regime is no more rational than that being touted in North Korea.