What should be the minimum annual wages for Singaporeans?
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Originally posted by walesa:
Are you ignorant or simply foolhardy? Just because I allegedly "ridiculed" your idea does not in any way suggest I'm against minimum wage, does it?
To drive home my message to someone obscenely dense : I think your idea of a multi-tiered minimum wage policy is both unfeasible and working against the principles minimum wage is supposed to serve. In short, the brand of multi-tiered minimum wage actually does more to accentuate social inequity than narrow the income gap. That said, I am all for minimum wage (the brand you see worldwide - whether it works and how effective it is are an entirely separatematter). Period. Sharp and concise. Does that answer your question? (For the record, I belong neither to the middle nor lower income strata in the strictest demographic definition churned out by the regime's statistics, but the point about having minimum wage to reduce social inequity isn't lost on me)
As for your point, I was questioning the viability of your "creative" suggestion - at which point did I assert my idea (when I never even mentioned one) to be right and absolute? How you liken my "attitude" to this regime is beyond me - if anything, I find it perplexing you find your views absolute and untouchable (so who's behaving like the infamous regime now?)...
Ok. So lets stick to the "fundamental".. minimum wage policy that protects the lowest strata of our society.
Is there any policy available on planet earth that protects the middle income group?
Or are you saying this group of workers need no protection ?
If not, then how do you propose we protect against wage depression for the middle income group?
Anyway, I'm heading out for they day. And would very must like to come back and see what your expert idea may be on this issue.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Ok. So lets stick to the "fundamental".. minimum wage policy that protects the lowest strata of our society.
Is there any policy available on planet earth that protects the middle income group?
Or are you saying this group of workers need no protection ?
If not, then how do you propose we protect against wage depression for the middle income group?
Anyway, I'm heading out for they day. And would very must like to come back and see what your expert idea may be on this issue.
Do not be mistaken - at no point did I suggest I've got the cure to address all the social ills that exist. The fact of the matter concerning the minimum wage is, its very primary purpose exists to tackle the social inequity confronting the lower strata of society and it functions on the basis of equality (obviously, it will hardly affect skilled labour whose income far exceeds the minimum wage, but they too are technically "covered" nevertheless). It just doesn't make sense to implement a "minimum wage" that targets every marginalised group imaginable, does it? If anything, any idea that seeks to target an exclusive group (be they middle-income, females, blacks, or any other group) would only serve to further accentuate the income divide (which simply defeats the whole purpose of the minimum wage), wouldn't it?
I don't think the middle-income group's woes could be addressed by any minimum wage policies. Assuming the premise of the local context, the whole crux of your perceived middle income problem stems not from the labour policies (nothing to do with minimum wage to begin with since it's non-existent in Singapore) as much as it does from a whole bunch of immigration and social policies. Put it this way : if your gripe stems from the influx of cheap, lowly-paid foreigners (and if you're familiar with the similarities of US, this is not quite a problem with illegal aliens as these people are legitimately entitled to work in Singapore) being allowed to take on jobs your parents are capable of performing (thereby inducing the wage suppression), would you not agree the problem actually stems from the lax immigration policies more than any labour or wage issues? Clearly, it's not rocket science to comprehend tweaking the wage policies to compensate for an inherent flaw in immigration isn't exactly going to address the problem.
In essence, all I am saying is minimum wage is neither an issue nor a solution towards addressing the middle-income woes you've addressed. Take a shot at such sandcastles built in the air then...
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Those aging lowly educated cleaner earn $1000/mth. After deduct CPF is $800. I don't think they can have any saving end of the day. If they have children to depand on then that is just a past time for them. For ppl with no support and doesn't own a flat then for that income just CMI. Condition diff for ppl to ppl, if it is going to stay at the current rate many ppl will suffer in long run.
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Originally posted by T.Ryousuke:
Those aging lowly educated cleaner earn $1000/mth. After deduct CPF is $800. I don't think they can have any saving end of the day. If they have children to depand on then that is just a past time for them. For ppl with no support and doesn't own a flat then for that income just CMI. Condition diff for ppl to ppl, if it is going to stay at the current rate many ppl will suffer in long run.
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Originally posted by T.Ryousuke:
Those aging lowly educated cleaner earn $1000/mth. After deduct CPF is $800. I don't think they can have any saving end of the day. If they have children to depand on then that is just a past time for them. For ppl with no support and doesn't own a flat then for that income just CMI. Condition diff for ppl to ppl, if it is going to stay at the current rate many ppl will suffer in long run.
I see so many people in the army, spending all their allowance till they are broke, then wait for the next allowance to come. Good money habits have to start from young.
Even saving 100 a month at a rate of 1.8% per annum, compounded, will give you 30.3k in 20 years time. This excludes their CPF, which sadly, they can only draw out from 65 years onwards.
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But seriously, no matter how we discussed and justify, minimum wage won't happen the what.
That's the sian part I think.
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Originally posted by yamizi:
But seriously, no matter how we discussed and justify, minimum wage won't happen the what.
That's the sian part I think.
when this is adopted widely enough elsewhere, or it threatens the existence of the government, you bet PAP will change tact.
so don't rule this out yet....
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Originally posted by eagle:
I see so many people in the army, spending all their allowance till they are broke, then wait for the next allowance to come. Good money habits have to start from young.
Even saving 100 a month at a rate of 1.8% per annum, compounded, will give you 30.3k in 20 years time. This excludes their CPF, which sadly, they can only draw out from 65 years onwards.
Yah lah..blame all on being spendthrift issit ?You think the poor dunno how to save ah ? Can they save in the mids of all these crazy inflation anot ?
No need to eat ah.. no need to pay bill ah ? Stay at home look at ceiling lor.
You born with silver spoon doesn't mean everyone born with one ok ?
You think every NS gin nah like you no need give money to their parents one issit ?
You think all their allowance is like you all spend on yourself one har ?
Can don't be so elitist anot ?
What.. you sound like that dunno what's his name minister.. say all should eat humble pie , lower their quality of life mah...
Next time you tell us...potatooo increase price..if cannot afford then go eat shyt lor. Recycle mah.. good for the environment.
I gib you $10 every month. you go make the money for me.. then 20 years later I come collect from you. See how much you can make lor.
You think investment no risk ah ? If I lugi money, can I come after you anot ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yah lah..blame all on being spendthrift issit ?You think the poor dunno how to save ah ? Can they save in the mids of all these crazy inflation anot ?
No need to eat ah.. no need to pay bill ah ? Stay at home look at ceiling lor.
You born with silver spoon doesn't mean everyone born with one ok ?
You think every NS gin nah like you no need give money to their parents one issit ?
You think all their allowance is like you all spend on yourself one har ?
Can don't be so elitist anot ?
What.. you sound like that dunno what's his name minister.. say all should eat humble pie , lower their quality of life mah...
Next time you tell us...potatooo increase price..if cannot afford then go eat shyt lor. Recycle mah.. good for the environment.
I gib you $10 every month. you go make the money for me.. then 20 years later I come collect from you. See how much you can make lor.
You think investment no risk ah ? If I lugi money, can I come after you anot ?
I bet you didn't know that 1.6% is the fixed D rate at the current economic downturn, and at the highest 3 years ago, it was 3.2%. I gave 1.8% as a very conservative estimate already, although money is still being lost to inflation.
And I was talking about those who finished allowance who don't need to give to their parents, and some who still receive allowance from parents during NS.
I haven't even gone into saying investment yet, purely just saving in the bank.
You don't go NS, and you don't stay in Sg now, you won't know exactly what was said la... Even during NS, I took over guard duties for others, and taught tuition during nights out, just for extra money. I can also tell you that my driving lessons are paid for by these extra money I earned.
Also, when I would want to buy something, I do not ask for extra money too. I will wait for my next paycheck from tuition or other sources. Money saved is saved; try not to touch them unless absolutely necessary. This is just my money habit.
Finally, I'm only saying that money habits need to be cultivated from young. Not only when they are out in society and discover that they need more money. Your post makes no sense in this case.
It is because of the power of compounding that I am going to make it a point not to spend much on anything unnecessary early in life. Anything wrong in sharing my thoughts about money habits?
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There r many rich ppl around who r working at a very low paid just to cover transport and 3 menu. The mojority who r poor can't really suvive on that little income.
So market rate is for FT and rich ppl who have other alternative, for many Sg who need to service Loan/ fee and with the current Rate/fuel going up, excl. FD rate. If still asking for current market pay ..........good luck.
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Originally posted by T.Ryousuke:
There r many rich ppl around who r working at a very low paid just to cover transport and 3 menu. The mojority who r poor can't really suvive on that little income.
So market rate is for FT and rich ppl who have other alternative, for many Sg who need to service Loan/ fee and with the current Rate/fuel going up, excl. FD rate. If still asking for current market pay ..........good luck.
If they are working just to cover their basic necessities, it means they are not rich.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I bet you didn't know that 1.6% is the fixed D rate at the current economic downturn, and at the highest 3 years ago, it was 3.2%. I gave 1.8% as a very conservative estimate already, although money is still being lost to inflation.
And I was talking about those who finished allowance who don't need to give to their parents, and some who still receive allowance from parents during NS.
I haven't even gone into saying investment yet, purely just saving in the bank.
You don't go NS, and you don't stay in Sg now, you won't know exactly what was said la...
Also, when I would want to buy something, I do not ask for extra money too. I will wait for my next paycheck from tuition or other sources. Money saved is saved; try not to touch them unless absolutely necessary. This is just my money habit.
Finally, I'm only saying that money habits need to be cultivated from young. Not only when they are out in society and discover that they need more money. Your post makes no sense in this case.
It is because of the power of compounding that I am going to make it a point not to spend much on anything unnecessary. Anything wrong in sharing my thoughts about money habits?
Very simple. I ask you. If the child is from a poor family, where the money come from to teach a child save money ?In other words, no money save what money ?
No money to save.. how to teach from young ?
Just because I am out of Singapore does not means my roots are pulled and severed.
I have many friends who are Singapoeans and NS guys too.
I remember when I was in primary school, there are many who only bring home cook food or has only 50cents- $1 as allowance.
Almost everyday.. they borrow money from me. If they are in debt how to save ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Very simple. I ask you. If the child is from a poor family, where the money come from to teach a child save money ?In other words, no money save what money ?
No money to save.. how to teach from young ?
Just because I am out of Singapore does not means my roots are pulled and severed.
I have many friends who are Singapoeans and NS guys too.
I remember when I was in primary school, there are many who only bring home cook food or has only 50cents- $1 as allowance.
Almost everyday.. they borrow money from me. If they are in debt how to save ?
When you are in primary school? 50 cents is very big during that time leh... I also got 50 cents for allowance in pri sch, when 1 very small plate of noodles cost 30 cents for small kids.
I'm sure I don't need to remind you how many rags to riches stories there are in this world. Children who came from extremely poor families who in the end, earned more than any of us here. My viewpoint is that if people can do it, so can I. Nothing is impossible in this world if you put your heart to it. But as you grow older, it gets harder and harder to achieve more and more. That's why I'm talking about since young.
You have already mentioned the problem. They borrow money from you.
I have also mentioned the difference with what I do. I need, I go out to earn the money. -
Originally posted by eagle:
When you are in primary school? 50 cents is very big during that time leh... I also got 50 cents for allowance in pri sch, when 1 very small plate of noodles cost 30 cents for small kids.
I'm sure I don't need to remind you how many rags to riches stories there are in this world. Children who came from extremely poor families who in the end, earned more than any of us here. My viewpoint is that if people can do it, so can I. Nothing is impossible in this world if you put your heart to it. But as you grow older, it gets harder and harder to achieve more and more. That's why I'm talking about since young.
You have already mentioned the problem. They borrow money from you.
I have also mentioned the difference with what I do. I need, I go out to earn the money.Yes since young.
When you get married leh ?
When you have to pay for your mortgage leh ?
When your family get sick leh ?
When your parents old and needs special care leh ?
Unless you become a DINK, else who is going to take care of your kids when you and your wife go to work ?
Can your life savings sustain the high cost of living anot ?
By the way.. are you advocating child labor ?
Do you also know that banks in Singapore are over charging ?
You put money in their banks .. they use your money to make more money. Yet they charge you monthly fees to put money in their banks. You ever wonder how come in Singapore banks can do such crazy things ?
Yes SG is a financial hub.. but at the expense of SG people ok ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yes since young.
When you get married leh ?
When you have to pay for your mortgage leh ?
When your family get sick leh ?
When your parents old and needs special care leh ?
Unless you become a DINK, else who is going to take care of your kids when you and your wife go to work ?
Can your life savings sustain the high cost of living anot ?
By the way.. are you advocating child labor ?
If you have read true rags to riches stories, you will see how these people think and earn money even as a child. At my age, they already have at least 10 times my current savings. Which is why it is important since young... Before you get married, before you have to pay for mortgage, before your family gets sick, before your parents need medical care, etc... If you wait till all these expenses arrive, it will be too late.
I shall share with you a recent article I read. Do tell me if it is relevant.
The Four Levels of Wealth
There are basically four levels of wealth you must aim to attain.
Level 1: Financial Stability
The first level of wealth is known as financial stability. This is
the most basic level of wealth that you must first attain.
You have achieved Financial Stability when:
1. You have accumulated enough liquid assets to cover your current
expenses for a minimum of six months.
2. In addition, you have life and hospitalization insurance to
protect you and/or your family's lifestyle should you be
permanently disabled, unable to work or if you pass away suddenly.
When you have attained this first level, you will have the peace of
mind that should any unexpected challenges befall you (like
retrenchment, business failure, pay cut, death or disability), you
and your family's lifestyle will not be compromised. Or worse, you
or your family will not slide into debt.
Once you have achieved this, you must then aim to achieve...
Level 2: Financial Security
You have achieved Financial Security when you have through the
investment of time, money and ideas, accumulated a critical amount
of Positive Cash Flow Assets that generate enough passive income to
cover your MOST BASIC expenses.
In other words, when you reach this level, you can stop working and
maintain a very basic lifestyle. It also means that if you continue
working, all your active income can be channeled towards your
investments and this will further compound your assets and increase
your in-come streams.
Of course, we shouldn't be satisfied at being at this level. Once
accomplished, you must then aim to go for...
Level 3: Financial Fre-edom
Many of us have heard of the dream of achieving financial fre-edom
but what does it really mean?
Well, Financial Fre-edom is when you have through the investment of
time, money and ideas, accumulated a critical amount of Positive
Cash Flow Assets that generate enough passive income to sustain
your CURRENT LIFESTYLE.
When you reach this level of Financial Fre-edom, you can choose to
stop working and still maintain your current standard of living...
indefinitely!
In reality, most people who achieve financial fre-edom love their
work so much that they continue working not because they have to,
but because they choose to.
I can tell you from personal experience that it is a great feeling
to have...being free of financial pressure & worries and working
purely out of passion!
Obviously, the more expenses you have now, the more luxurious and
indulgent your standard of living, the longer it will take for you
to achieve financial fre-edom.
So besides increasing your passive in-come, reducing your
unnecessary/frivolous expenses will accelerate your way towards
this fourth level. Finally, you must aim to achieve...
Level 4: Financial Abundance
So what is the ultimate level of wealth you can achieve? Financial
Abundance is when you have through the investment of time, money
and ideas, accumulated a critical amount of Positive Cash Flow
Assets that generate enough passive income to sustain your DESIRED
LIFESTYLE.
Your desired lifestyle is the amount of monthly expenses it will
take for you to live the life of your dreams. This is totally
subjective depending on the lifestyle that you desire.
If your desired lifestyle is to live in a 20,000 square-feet
bungalow with a swimming pool, send your kids to the best schools
and drive a Mercedes Benz S-Class, then you could be looking at a
monthly lifestyle that'll cost a cool $50,000.
Of course the more luxurious your desired lifestyle, the longer it
will take for you to achieve financial abundance.
The moment you reach the level of Financial Abundance, you will be
able to choose to stop working and live your dream lifestyle
indefinitely.
Again, most people who do reach this level usually love what they
do so much that they keep on working for fun, channeling 100% of
their active income towards charitable causes and further
compounding their wealth.
With the right strategies and plans in place, you too will be able
to achieve this ultimate level of wealth. -
Originally posted by jojobeach:
Do you also know that banks in Singapore are over charging ?
You put money in their banks .. they use your money to make more money. Yet they charge you monthly fees to put money in their banks. You ever wonder how come in Singapore banks can do such crazy things ?
Yes SG is a financial hub.. but at the expense of SG people ok ?
They don't charge you money unless you put less than $200 (I think is this amount, forgot le) in the account. The only argument you can put forward here is that they are giving you too little interest.
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Originally posted by eagle:
They don't charge you money unless you put less than $200 (I think is this amount, forgot le) in the account. The only argument you can put forward here is that they are giving you too little interest.
i think posbank doesn't charge, regardless of amount.
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Originally posted by redDUST:
i think posbank doesn't charge, regardless of amount.
I remember them changing the policy a few years ago... But cannot remember the min required amount... They will charge $2 a month if your acct is less than that amount....
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Originally posted by eagle:
I remember them changing the policy a few years ago... But cannot remember the min required amount... They will charge $2 a month if your acct is less than that amount....
maybe u r rite...i am not too sure....banking for the people, i think is no longer a thing for singapore.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I remember them changing the policy a few years ago... But cannot remember the min required amount... They will charge $2 a month if your acct is less than that amount....
LOL. Where you put your savings ?
I have 5 digits savings in that bank , and they still charge me $2 every month WITHOUT FAIL.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
LOL. Where you put your savings ?
I have 5 digits savings in that bank , and they still charge me $2 every month WITHOUT FAIL.
You put it into current account is it? That one got charrge $2 a month no matter the amount.
http://www.dbs.com/posb/deposit/current/Not for savings account though
http://www.dbs.com/posb/deposit/savings/ -
Originally posted by eagle:
You put it into current account is it? That one got charrge $2 a month no matter the amount.
http://www.dbs.com/posb/deposit/current/Not for savings account though
http://www.dbs.com/posb/deposit/savings/Haiz , I have a current link to that savings. Damn. Time to pull out my lollars.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Haiz , I have a current link to that savings. Damn. Time to pull out my lollars.
nvr mind lah, got 5 figure saving but ngiau over 2 bucks everymonth. cheque book convenience ok what. go car showroom or far east org something like that, $20k or $100k down payment, then how?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
nvr mind lah, got 5 figure saving but ngiau over 2 bucks everymonth. cheque book convenience ok what. go car showroom or far east org something like that, $20k or $100k down payment, then how?
Yah lor.. $2 plus inflation, plus a miserly interest rates.. my lollar getting smollar and smollar.
I patriot mah... sarport our National Bank don't want to change bank.. now shiok lor.. they screw me over leh. NB !!
Tah mah de.. I also never use my cheque book every month wat.. why still charge me 2 lollar every month !
Shoulda listen to my friend tell me to change to other foreign bank !!
Got which bank don't charge savings/current har ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Yah lor.. $2 plus inflation, plus a miserly interest rates.. my lollar getting smollar and smollar.
I patriot mah... sarport our National Bank don't want to change bank.. now shiok lor.. they screw me over leh. NB !!
Tah mah de.. I also never use my cheque book every month wat.. why still charge me 2 lollar every month !
Shoulda listen to my friend tell me to change to other foreign bank !!
Got which bank don't charge savings/current har ?
dun think have. print cheque book in your name need money one, ok.
better cancel out your current a/c facility if you use little of it.