Can Identify, Yet don't Ask Why...
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
hloc are you highly paid?
Read my old post.... and you will know where & what I work as..... also how much I complain about my pay..... -
"Give you a clean place to live.... you complain that it lowers your resistance...."
I didnt complain. It's a scientific fact.
Ya, dirty then people say hygiene bad
clean then say lower resistance
Either way, they lose, you win.
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Hyperfocal... Seriously, you are linking two unrelated events together....
This style of yours reminds me of Raymond Lim, who claims that ERP helps Singaporeans to own more cars.
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Not quite unrelated. Remember SARS? Didnt come in via Malaysia and all the cleanliness in the world wouldnt have helped.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
Not quite unrelated. Remember SARS? Didnt come in via Malaysia and all the cleanliness in the world wouldnt have helped.
You raised a totally unrelated point. SARS was brought into Singapore by 3 Singaporeans, and not any foreign talent.
Yeah, not quite unrelated. Just like what I said about ERP and helping Singaporeans own more cars.
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Really. How did they manage to find out the first carriers of the virus? The 3 Singaporeans you mentioned are the KNOWN first victims of SARS with the symptoms.
BTW Red Alert:
"China issues virus alert after 23 children die
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-virus4-2008may04,0,7656385.story
BEIJING -- The Chinese Health Ministry issued a nationwide alert Saturday over a virus that has killed 23 children and sickened more than 4,000, as it scrambled to fend off a potential scandal over a coverup.
The latest victim of enterovirus-71 was an 18-month-old boy who died Friday in southern Guangdong province. The death was the first outside the Anhui province city of Fuyang, 700 miles to the north.
The virus also broke out in Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore and Vietnam, but no deaths have been reported there.
The virus is a perennial in the summer months in Asia, but the outbreak this year appears to be larger than usual. Because the disease usually peaks in June and July, more deaths are expected...." -
We are talking about who first brought the virus in and spreaded it, and not the carriers. The first person who spreaded it can be traced.
TS has implied it is foreign talents who brought new flu strains in, while you are raising the SARS issue to tell me it is related to the first part of this sentence.
For your info, SARS was brought into Singapore in March 2003 by three Singaporeans, who contracted the disease in Hong Kong.
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"From Wikipedia:
[edit] Spread to other countries
The epidemic reached the public spotlight in February 2003, when an American businessman traveling from China became afflicted with pneumonia-like symptoms while on a flight to Singapore. The plane stopped at Hanoi, Vietnam, where the victim died in The French Hospital of Hanoi. Several of the medical staff who treated him soon developed the same disease despite basic hospital procedures. Italian doctor Carlo Urbani identified the threat and communicated it to WHO and the Vietnamese government; he would later succumb from the disease. The severity of the symptoms and the infection of hospital staff alarmed global health authorities fearful of another emergent pneumonia epidemic. On March 12, 2003, the WHO issued a global alert, followed by a health alert by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Local transmission of SARS took place in Toronto, Vancouver, San Francisco, Ulan Bator, Manila, Singapore, Hanoi, Taiwan, the Chinese provinces of Guangdong, Jilin, Hebei, Hubei, Shaanxi, Jiangsu and Shanxi, the Chinese municipality of Tianjin, the Chinese Autonomous Region of Inner Mongolia, and the Chinese Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong.
In Hong Kong the first cohort of affected people were discharged from the hospital on March 29, 2003. The disease spread in Hong Kong from a mainland doctor on the 9th floor of the Metropole Hotel in Kowloon Peninsula, infecting 16 of the hotel visitors. Those visitors traveled to Singapore and Toronto, spreading SARS to those locations. Another, larger, cluster of cases in Hong Kong centred on the Amoy Gardens housing estate. Its spread is suspected to have been facilitated by defects in the sewage system of the estate.
[edit] Clinical profile
[edit] Contagion
This section requires expansion. [edit] Symptoms
Initial symptoms are flu like and may include: fever, myalgia, lethargy, gastrointestinal symptoms, cough, sore throat and other non-specific symptoms. The only symptom that is common to all patients appears to be a fever above 38 °C (100.4 °F). Shortness of breath may occur later. Symptoms usually appear 2–10 days following exposure, but up to 13 days has been reported. In most cases symptoms appear within 2–3 days. About 10–20% of cases require mechanical ventilation."
A carrier may be someone who is lucky to be resistant and recover normally while spreading the disease. Whether the main cause is by three Singaporeans or by FT nobody knows, because its just conjecture and quite impossible to trace EXACTLY how the disease is spread.
On the topic of relation, SG Forums dont like new topics so may as lump together in a HEALTH thread.
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A carrier may be someone who is lucky to be resistant and recover normally while spreading the disease. Whether the main cause is by three Singaporeans or by FT nobody knows, because its just conjecture and quite impossible to trace EXACTLY how the disease is spread.
You are still making guesses. Even for the article you posted from wiki tells us the same thing
The disease spread in Hong Kong from a mainland doctor on the 9th floor of the Metropole Hotel in Kowloon Peninsula, infecting 16 of the hotel visitors. Those visitors traveled to Singapore and Toronto, spreading SARS to those locations.
And the 3 Singaporeans came from there. Still, if you want to continue to anyhow link the events and claim that FTs could possibly have brought SARS into Singapore instead just for the sake of defending your post, I won't stop you.
On the topic of relation, SG Forums dont like new topics so may as lump together in a HEALTH thread.
Ya, I wondered who posted out very long posts, news articles included, on the unrelated SARS event, and further expanded upon it.
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"Ya, I wondered who posted out very long posts, news articles included, on the unrelated SARS event, and further expanded upon it."
In the mood for picking a fight? Threads have some strange way of branching out - this isnt a structured debate.
"Still, if you want to continue to anyhow link the events and claim that FTs could possibly have brought SARS into Singapore instead just for the sake of defending your post, I won't stop you."
And you are making an argument for argument's sake. Can you say DEFINITIVELY that FT (or tourists for that matter) has NOT brought SARS into Singapore? Or will not for some other disease in the future?
The three Singaporeans root infection THEORY is also a guess, albeit a far more researched one. BTW the Wikipedia article did not include that a few SARS people did not have the above 38C fever.
On the topic of no relation, can you explain to me how Raymond Lim's idea that ERP leads to greater car ownership (a fallacy) and how THAT relates to me bringing up SARS etc simply to illustrate the fact that cleanliness is the not determinent in SOME diseases.
BTW the thread started off as a FLU thread then into a discussion on DENGUE FEVER and so on, so dont taze me bro.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"Ya, I wondered who posted out very long posts, news articles included, on the unrelated SARS event, and further expanded upon it."
In the mood for picking a fight? Threads have some strange way of branching out - this isnt a structured debate.
"Still, if you want to continue to anyhow link the events and claim that FTs could possibly have brought SARS into Singapore instead just for the sake of defending your post, I won't stop you."
And you are making an argument for argument's sake. Can you say DEFINITIVELY that FT (or tourists for that matter) has NOT brought SARS into Singapore? Or will not in the future?
The three Singaporeans root infection THEORY is also a guess, albeit a far more researched one. BTW the Wikipedia article did not include that a few SARS people did not have the above 38C fever.
On the topic of no relation, can you explain to me how Raymond Lim's idea that ERP leads to greater car ownership (a fallacy) and how THAT relates to me bringing up SARS etc simply to illustrate the fact that cleanliness is the not determinent in SOME diseases.
BTW the thread started off as a FLU thread then into a discussion on DENGUE FEVER and so on, so dont taze me bro.
Simple. If you cannot find out the first person to spread the disease into the country, it would be an uphill task to quarantine as many as people as possible. It is not a theory. I have raised my sources to show you. Now you are telling me based on conjectures? Even your wiki source didn't support you.
Can you say DEFINITIVELY that FT (or tourists for that matter) has NOT brought SARS into Singapore? Or will not in the future?
Objective reply, no. But I'm definitely sure that the first person to have brought in and spreaded the disease is not a FT. If you remembered the news, all those infected could be traced directly or indirectly to the 3 Singaporeans.
You want to ask for definite confirmation of the future? You might as well say that we should stop every single person from leaving or coming into the country immediately. Then I can be definitely sure.
On the topic of no relation, can you explain to me how Raymond Lim's idea that ERP leads to greater car ownership (a fallacy) and how THAT relates to me bringing up SARS etc simply to illustrate the fact that cleanliness is the not determinent in SOME diseases.
I'm raising the point that the forumers here are practising double standards in this thread. I'm not sure how you managed to view it as being related to your post.
BTW the thread started off as a FLU thread then into a discussion on DENGUE FEVER and so on, so dont taze me bro
If you want to get bothered over forum debates, go ahead. I raised my point based on sources. You are telling me yours based on conjectures and that my sources are conjectures too. Go on. If you require, I still have sources that say
Most SARS cases in Singapore can be traced to a single person who was
infected while staying in Hong Kong. After she returned to Singapore on 1 March 2003, she infected a number of people here who in turn infected others.
Most of the other SARS patients in Singapore have only passed on the virus to a small number of people to whom they have had close contact.You need the source?
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"I have raised my sources to show you"
Which are based on Singaporean news and a Singapore government website. Actually the ROOT source you should be quoting should be a WHO document submitted by the MoH. Like I said a theory. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to know the exact spread and root cause.
"You want to ask for definite confirmation of the future? You might as well say that we should stop every single person from leaving or coming into the country immediately. Then I can be definitely sure."
Precisely my point. You CAN'T be sure. In fact, there is a good chance it may be a foreigner the next time.
Not that I am a big fan of Australia's quarantine puritanism, but I think the lack of spread of SARS in Australia is partially due to said measures.
"I'm raising the point that the forumers here are practising double standards in this thread. I'm not sure how you managed to view it as being related to your post."
What double standards? Did HyperFocal (or I) say that Singaporeans did NOT or will NOT bring some diseases in as well? Quite simply, as a transport hub, Singapore cannot insulate itself but it is a problem for the GOVERNMENT to solve (by implementing stricter quarantine controls, a quarantine center near Changi etc.) not for the citizenry to solve.
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"Most SARS cases in Singapore can be traced to a single person who was
infected while staying in Hong Kong."1 or 3? Please be sure leh.
Logically speaking, if XYZ disease originate from ABC country, and a large portion of FT are ABC born, it infers that ABC FT go back to ABC country quite often, especially if ABC country is nearby, thus increasing the likelihood of bringing XYZ disease to Singapore. Singaporeans can also bring in diseases as tourists to ABC.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"Most SARS cases in Singapore can be traced to a single person who was
infected while staying in Hong Kong."1 or 3? Please be sure leh.
3 brought it in, but one is a super spreader.
http://www.sma.org.sg/sma_news/3503/commentary.pdf
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/cvetankh/internet/Response.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5218a1.htmWhich are based on Singaporean news and a Singapore government website. Actually the ROOT source you should be quoting should be a WHO document submitted by the MoH. Like I said a theory. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to know the exact spread and root cause
Ya, it is your style. If there's no source, you will say it is a conjecture. When there's a source, you claim it is impossible to know exact spread and root cause. We have seen this style in yours many times. Even if I were to find a WHO document, you would also shoot it down as having submitted by the government, not to mention that you should be the one to put it out since you want to make a different claim, and not ask others to do so.
What double standards? Did HyperFocal (or I) say that Singaporeans did NOT or will NOT bring some diseases in as well? Quite simply, as a transport hub, Singapore cannot insulate itself but it is a problem for the GOVERNMENT to solve (by implementing stricter quarantine controls, a quarantine center near Changi etc.) not for the citizenry to solve.
A transport hub is one thing. Placing the blame on foreign workers and talent is another thing. TS has said
... OVER CROWDING by foreigners (workers/talents/vistiors) is the main contributor...
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Never mind, I think we were on different frequencies.
I realised you are talking about the fact that it is possible for FTs to have brought diseases in, and not the claim that FTs are the main contributors for diseases into Singapore.
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Honestly I feel I'm getting deluded reading deluded posts from folks championing delusion.
I look at the first post and my first thought was: Wtf. What sense is this?
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"Even if I were to find a WHO document, you would also shoot it down as having submitted by the government, not to mention that you should be the one to put it out since you want to make a different claim, and not ask others to do so."
Do I have the resources and am in a position to make such an investigation? I don't. I am saying the source you are quoting is a THEORY. As to how definitive it can be, in light of the fact that SARS was a brand new disease and virtually no diagnosis tools to determine a person had SARS OR normal flu, it is simply an educated guess as well by what I assume to be competent people.
It isnt about my "style" what I am concerned about its the logic.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"Even if I were to find a WHO document, you would also shoot it down as having submitted by the government, not to mention that you should be the one to put it out since you want to make a different claim, and not ask others to do so."
Do I have the resources and am in a position to make such an investigation? I don't. I am saying the source you are quoting is a THEORY. As to how definitive it can be, in light of the fact that SARS was a brand new disease and virtually no diagnosis tools to determine a person had SARS OR normal flu, it is simply an educated guess as well by what I assume to be competent people.
It isnt about my "style" what I am concerned about its the logic.
Yes you have the resources. Google it. You can see the same paragraph as in your wiki source on how SARS entered Singapore.
http://www.who.int/whr/2003/chapter5/en/index2.html
Anyway look at the previous posting.
And you are right, it is logic. My bad there. Apologize for it.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Never mind, I think we were on different frequencies.
I realised you are talking about the fact that it is possible for FTs to have brought diseases in, and not the claim that FTs are the main contributors for diseases into Singapore.
We must think with a closed mind.It is technically, scientifically and logically possible that they brought it in also inaddition to others who brought it in.
GL dragonites bring lots of gifts to the world too.
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... so now in China the HFMD is spreading like wild fire...
... enough said...
... some day, there will be another "..this shouldn't have happened..., but I'm sorry that it has.." statement...
... and then we will all be told to "lets move on..."...
... hey, people are already 'moving on', out of SG that is...
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... so, new viruses aren't from foreign lands...?
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CHIKUNGUNYA DISEASE RESURFACES IN S'PORE
Was victim infected overseas?
Bukit Timah resident fell ill three days after trip to Jakarta
By Karen Wong
May 08, 2008
EVEN as hand, foot and mouth disease shows no sign of abating, with the number of cases here passing the 10,000 mark, another virus has made a comeback.A 63-year-old Singapore retiree is suspected to have caught chikungunya when he travelled to Indonesia last month.
The man told The New Paper that he went to Jakarta to play golf and to attend a meeting.
Three days after that Jakarta visit, the man became ill while on a flight to Sydney for a holiday.That was on 11 Apr.
For two days, he stayed in his hotel room, too ill to go out.
'I was in pain and I couldn't sleep,' he told The New Paper, asking that he not be named.
Doctors there took his blood for tests, but could not nail down the virus that plagued him.
His wife, who was with him, decided to cut short their week-long holiday.
They returned to Singapore on 14 Apr.
HOSPITAL TEST DONE
The man was admitted to Singapore General Hospital, where his blood was taken for testing.
Late last week, the blood test results came back: He had chikungunya fever.
He said: 'I believe I got it in Jakarta. On the golf course.'
Chikungunya fever, which is spread by the Aedes mosquito that also transmits dengue, has claimed several lives in India and Reunion Island.
Severe arthritis usually comes with its onset. It is different from dengue as fewer people die from it and the fever is typically shorter, though the joint pain can last for months.
In January, 12 people were struck with chikungunya fever around the Clive Street area in Little India.
One more victim, who lives on Mackenzie Road about 200m away, later caught the illness.
It was the first outbreak of chikungunya here.
The latest victim is recovering at his Oriole Crescent bungalow home, off Dunearn Road.
He said: 'My appetite is now okay, but I have joint aches which are quite troubling and sickening.'
The avid golfer added: 'I can't sit still for a long time.
'If I sit down for too long, my ankles cramp up. There's also some swelling around my joints.'
He said he was told these 'post-viral' symptoms can last for months.
Frustrated, he said: 'I cannot do anything.'
On Monday, he said, officers from the Health Ministry took further blood samples for testing.
Responding to queries from The New Paper, a Health Ministry spokesman said: 'MOH was notified of a suspected case of chikungunya on 2 May.
'The ministry will need to conduct further investigations to confirm the diagnosis.'
Yesterday, National Environment Agency (NEA) inspectors combed the estate around his District 11 home, looking for mosquito breeding spots.
Replying to queries, an NEA spokesman said: 'We were told about the suspected chikungunya case on Monday. Our officers have inspected the immediate surrounding premises.
'A total of three mosquito breedings were detected during our inspections.'
Retiree Kenneth Tan, 66, who lives nearby, said NEA officers had visited his home to check for mosquitoes.
But, he said, he thought it was just a routine inspection for breeding spots.
In the January outbreak, more than 4,400 inspections were carried out by 20 NEA officers and 15 pest control operators - almost three times more than usual.
Seventy-five breeding spots were detected and destroyed.
Before that outbreak, all previous chikungunya fever cases were imported.
There were 10 cases in 2006.
Imported chikungunya fever cases present less cause for alarm.
Still, judging by the careful inspection of the premises within 200-metre radius of Oriole Crescent yesterday, the NEA is not taking any chances.
It usually takes three to seven days for a person infected by the chikungunya virus to fall ill.
Patients can develop symptoms similar to dengue, such as fever, joint pain, chills, nausea, vomiting, headaches and rashes.
Most of the symptoms last only three to 10 days, but the joint pains can go on for weeks or even months.
As with dengue, there is no cure.
Rest is usually the best treatment, combined with medication for fever and pain, and fluids to prevent dehydration.
The disease usually goes away on its own. It is rarely fatal, but deaths have been reported overseas.
Countries that have had chikungunya outbreaks include India, Maldives, Indonesia and Italy.
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... so, new viruses aren't from foreign lands...?
no one said that
