D-day 23rd may pedra branca
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
This infomation from Wikipedia: The Malaysian state of Johor asserts that when Johor Sultanate ceded Singapore to the British in 1824, the island was not part of the secession and that the Sultan of Johor only allowed the British to construct a lighthouse on the island in 1844.[10] This follows a letter dated November 25 1844 from the Sultan and the Temenggung of Johor to the British which gave the British a permission to build a lighthouse on an island.[11] In 1824, Sultan of Johor ceded Singapore and the surrounding 10 nmi (18.5 km) to the British East India Company.[12] Pedra Branca is located 25 nmi (46.3 km) away from Singapore; the island is 7.7 nmi (14.3 km) away from Johor.[13]
Sentosa, Pulau Tekong and Ubin is within the 18.5 km of Singapore but not Pedra Branca. -
the bottomline is if SG continues to own that rock...we can legitimately extend our territorial waters further....once kenna take back...we r losing quite a bit of those watery territories....strategically and militarily not very good
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
This infomation from Wikipedia: The Malaysian state of Johor asserts that when Johor Sultanate ceded Singapore to the British in 1824, the island was not part of the secession and that the Sultan of Johor only allowed the British to construct a lighthouse on the island in 1844.[10] This follows a letter dated November 25 1844 from the Sultan and the Temenggung of Johor to the British which gave the British a permission to build a lighthouse on an island.[11] In 1824, Sultan of Johor ceded Singapore and the surrounding 10 nmi (18.5 km) to the British East India Company.[12] Pedra Branca is located 25 nmi (46.3 km) away from Singapore; the island is 7.7 nmi (14.3 km) away from Johor.[13]1. johor never claimed the island of pedra branca in its hundreds of years of history... so you cannot say that island belong to them since time immemorial...
just because its near your house... doesnt make it belong to you. the same points applies to falkland being next to argentina but belong to british... like wise the french micronesia which is in the pacific ocean half way around the globe but belong to france.
2. the treaty on cessation of singapore and the surrounding 10 nmi, only relates to singapore... it does not infer or imply that pedra branca must then belong to johor... the treaty never said that... nor did it imply that the british accept johor ownership of pedra branca.
the same argument was presented in the ligitan and sipadan argument... indonesia has a legal treaty which was signed by the anglo-dutch power, which stated that the border between the two powers is based on a straight latitude line cutting across an island next to kalimantan.
the indonesian takes that as implying that all the water and island(including ligitan and sipadan) below that latitude line cutting across the island and all the way east as indonesians.
however, the court totally disagreed... and stated that the treaty only relates to the island and nothing more should be implied by the treaty to assume that all the water and island south of the latitude line beyond the island mentioned must belong to indonesia.
with regard to the letter of permission to build the lighthouse... singapore has already proven to the court.. that the island mentioned was not pedra branca but peak rock which is a about 1 mile from johor mainland... through the various correspondence between governor butterworth and the johor sultan.
furthermore.. malaysia was not able to produce the letter... which would mean it would carry little or no weight since no letter... how you know with absolute clarity and certainty its refering to wat? maybe it could be refering to a ship or a women call pedra branca.... it might even be a letter from the sultan to cede johor to the british.
malaysia claimed that singapore has hidden the letter, which singapore denies base on 2 fact.
1. the letter was addressed to the johor sultan... why would the letter be in singapore?
2. complete singapore archieves were copied to various universities around the world including melbourn university well before the dispute arise over pedra branca... in the form of microfilms... all these microfilms and copies attested to the singapore point that such letter was not in singapore's possesion.
malaysia's final day rebuttal however.. claimed that singapore have the letter because the sultan and the temengong was staying in singapore at that time.
but honestly... its a weak counter... afterall, would malaysia file top secret files in singapore archieves because their prime minister happen to recieve the files while in singapore?
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
and u obviously have not seen the spratly ones.......that soldier sanding on a piece of rock submerged in the seawho doesnt know the importance of a claim on any rocks, land or property that would affect that person or country's right over the areas of space, water and air.
even that ah pek who was fined by the town council for using some box to demarcate his corridor space also knew that.....territorial claims....whether right here in our hdbs or over international territories......MANKIND r jus so greedy
Totally wrong.You have to see it yourself to understand.
For sea-farers, Horsburg Lighthouse = The entrance to the S'pore Straits.
For me of course, it means much more. It means home. You of course will never know what it feels like if you haven't seen it.
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the 1953 disclaimer by johor state secretary...
malaysia claimed that the federation treaty prevents the johor state secretary from disowning pedra branca..
a quick look into the malaysian federation treaty of 1948 would show that the malaysian federation is founded on the signatory states and any islands within 3 nmi of these states...
how far is pedra branca from malaysia? 7.7 nmi... well beyond the specification of their federation treaty of 1948.
thus the johor state secretary wasnt disclaiming/disowning/giving up/ceding or even selling anything...since pedra branca was never part of malaysia to begin with..... he is just saying the island pedra branca dont belong to johor just as he would answer that batam/java/sumatra and japan do not belong to johor.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Totally wrong.You have to see it yourself to understand.
For sea-farers, Horsburg Lighthouse = The entrance to the S'pore Straits.
For me of course, it means much more. It means home. You of course will never know what it feels like if you haven't seen it.
when ah pek fishing there, perhaps your pa & ma haven't even started dating....entrance my foot....jus good fishing place for us
nxt time malaysia take back..fishing there mus bring passport
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
when ah pek fishing there, perhaps your pa & ma haven't even started dating....entrance my foot....jus good fishing place for us
nxt time malaysia take back..fishing there mus bring passport
You only know how to talk big.You obviously don't know it's the lighthouse that's most at stake.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
You only know how to talk big.You obviously don't know it's the lighthouse that's most at stake.
we all talk big.....we even write on toilet walls.....want to worry...better worry abt those within your nightmares.....like tomorrow u got $$ to pay your bills or $$ to see dcotor if kenna cnacer........got lighthouse or no lighthouse....wun not help u to settle bills or your 3 meals a day -
...and i ah pek especially cannot tahan those who simply luv to poke our SG flag on top of mountain or somewhere and say it's for the glory of SG.....bottomline...can eat anot??
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Only those who sail the seas will truly understand what Pedra Branca means to Singapore.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Only those who sail the seas will truly understand what Pedra Branca means to Singapore.
well...u can tell that to that dead navy girl whose body is still not found until today when her frigate collided wif that tanker near that rock -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Only those who sail the seas will truly understand what Pedra Branca means to Singapore.
I remember taking the bus ride to Hatyai in the 80s when it was a long long ride, just after the border checkpoint all the dirty ah pek in the coach would shout(((((HOSAY))) in unison.Yes,it is something you would also say when you enter Singapore waters while passing this rock.
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Getting that island isn't going make rice any cheaper, but we just have to do it for honour
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
when ah pek fishing there, perhaps your pa & ma haven't even started dating....entrance my foot....jus good fishing place for us
nxt time malaysia take back..fishing there mus bring passport
the same thing is different thing to different people... no one is right...or wrong.
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
we all talk big.....we even write on toilet walls.....want to worry...better worry abt those within your nightmares.....like tomorrow u got $$ to pay your bills or $$ to see dcotor if kenna cnacer........got lighthouse or no lighthouse....wun not help u to settle bills or your 3 meals a daythe sayings in the SAF... what you cannot protect... dont belong to you...
the same goes for your $$ and your meals on the table if you cannot defend it.... the island is but a higher manifestation at the national level... of what you cannot defend dont belong to you.
you cant eat the rock no doubt... but neither will your $$ belong to you... if you dont stand up and defend wat is rightfully yours.
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Excuse me, If Singapore loses the rock, it loses it honour. Pretty high stakes to place on a border delination dispute.
You people are pretty confident that you are going to win the case... I am no legal scholar so I cant say one way or another.
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
well...u can tell that to that dead navy girl whose body is still not found until today when her frigate collided wif that tanker near that rock
What frigate lar.And of course I can tell her. Firstly because I am from the same service. Secondly because I am from the platform you anyhow whacked.
And Pedra Branca is not 1 rock. It's a few rocks. The main one on the lighthouse stands is the only one that's visible during high tide.
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
well...u can tell that to that dead navy girl whose body is still not found until today when her frigate collided wif that tanker near that rockshe wasnt the first... if you have read the ICJ transcripts... there were others in the navy before her who died around pedra branca... and as live would have it.. she wont be the last... be grateful for her sacrifice.
people has died for far less worthy cause... i just pray we win this case in ICJ... so that all those who have sacrificed their lives defending the island will not go to waste.
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Er....please do not be mistaken. It's like a competition with no real prize, hence only a fight for honour
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
Excuse me, If Singapore loses the rock, it loses it honour. Pretty high stakes to place on a border delination dispute.
You people are pretty confident that you are going to win the case... I am no legal scholar so I cant say one way or another.
until the verdict... we can only pray for the best...
the indonesians were pretty confident too before they loose it... we just pray we dont end up like them.
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Originally posted by Arkansaw:
Er....please do not be mistaken. It's like a competition with no real prize, hence only a fight for honour
You're the mistaken one.The lighthouse is very important. You guys must see for yourself why I say so.
If you have this rock, you have control and access to the waters there. And it is an opening to the S China Sea, a very important one.
And at Horsburg Lighthouse, there's equipments to monitor the ships there. Much like an eye for us to monitor the ships. In the same vein, having the area there under us means having a buffer zone.
Lastly, it is a fight in which honour is at stake. There's no doubt about that.
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Originally posted by Arkansaw:
Er....please do not be mistaken. It's like a competition with no real prize, hence only a fight for honour
it has nothing to do with honour in my opinion... only our sovereignty over the island matters.malaysia on the other hand had little to loose.. because they never own the island in the first place... but with a map published in 1979... they now stand a chance to take one of our island without sending a single soldier.
its shocking that our govt actually play along with them and go to ICJ... would we have to go to ICJ again if tomolo they start printing another map carving woodland or changi as part of johor in their map?
i sometimes... really wonder which screw is loose in our govt brain...
to me.. the island is ours... we have been administering it.. running it... and occupying every inch of that island.
under the international law... occupation even if by force of arms or conquest is an acceptable form of ownership of a territory..even if malaysia do originally own the island.... they can go fly kite... afterall that's how they grab sabah from the philippines back then by sending 2 battalion of their troops into sabah.
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So Singapore no honour if it loses right?
Like Singapore no honour even after import FT athletes still cannot capture high ranking tournaments in badminton and table tennis. Unlike Malaysian LOCAL born squash queen WORLD no 1 (2006-2007, 2007-current) Nicol David and badminton queen Wong Mei Chew who beat ALL OF THE CHINA's A TEAM IN CHINA 2007. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Mew_Choo).
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Originally posted by tripwire:
it has nothing to do with honour... only our sovereignty over the island matters.malaysia on the other hand had little to loose.. because they never own the island in the first place... but with a map published in 1979... they now stand a chance to take one of our island without sending a single soldier.
its shocking that our govt actually play along with them and go to ICJ... would we have to go to ICJ again if tomolo they start printing another map carving woodland or changi as part of johor in their map?
i sometimes... really wonder which screw is loose in our govt brain...
to me.. the island is ours... we have been administering it.. running it... and occupying every inch of that island.
under the international law... occupation even if by force of arms or conquest is an acceptable form of ownership of a territory..even if malaysia do originally own the island.
Because our water reclaimation plants not up yet then.
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very important??
It is not more important than any other piece of land we can possibly wrest from Malaysia.
It is not more important than the people's livelihood.
It is not more important than rice, petrol and water.
If it is so important, we should have sent in the troops without the need for ICJ's intervention.