D-day 23rd may pedra branca
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Originally posted by tripwire:
some idiots think that proximity is claim to ownership... for your information.. pedra branca is nearer to indonesia then to malaysia..
and for your information... malaysia only claimed pedra branca in 1979 through publishing their new map and cut into the land and water of 6 neighbours.
I also want Singapore to win but the 2 countries have valid reasons. Since a place is uninhabitated, means belonging to "nobody"??? If a place is uninhabitated, why will the British ask permission from Johor to build a lighthouse for other islands? If the natives already had encountered the island and call it Pulau Batu Puteh long before British ever stepped foot to the region, then I will say that Johor has a valid reason for the case. Both parties do have valid reasons for the island. -
Originally posted by wheelcamp:
I also want Singapore to win but the 2 countries have valid reasons. Since a place is uninhabitated, means belonging to "nobody"??? If a place is uninhabitated, why will the British ask permission from Johor to build a lighthouse for other islands? If the natives already had encountered the island and call it Pulau Batu Puteh long before British ever stepped foot to the region, then I will say that Johor has a valid reason for the case. Both parties do have valid reasons for the island.
there are 2 question here.
first... the name pulau batu puteh, is simply a malay naming for a geological feature just as malaysia would call USA as amerika syarikat or JAPAN as jepun, fried rice as nasi goreng.... the name itself do not confer a title, its just a naming done through interpretation of the original name.... otherwise malaysia could lay claim to the whole universe by giving it a malay word.
pedra branca is a portugese word... translated to english as "white rock", unless i am mistaken... pulau batu putih appears to be a simple translation of the portugese word pedra branca.
the second question is fisherman landing on the island.
under the international law... fisherman do not have "official" capacity to claim any island, tree or the sun on behalf of a sovereign state.
malaysia tried that during the ligitan and sipadan trial against indonesia... claiming that orang laut (sea gypsies) who pledge allegiance to the sabah sultanate has claimed those island through their repeated visits.
however.. the ICJ flatly rejected malaysia's claim base on fisherman or fishing activities on or around the island... as these are considered as "private activities" therefore NOT OFFICIAL.
the ICJ eventually granted the island to malaysia BECAUSE... malaysia has shown that it has been regulating the collection of turtle egg on the two island officially through laws and deploying officials to enforce the law on ligitan and sipadan.
yes..... indonesia lost the two island because of turtle eggs.... i am sure the indonesian were coughing blood that day when the judgement were pass down at the ICJ.
hmmm... seems like i miss one question... the british asking for permision to build the lighthouse...
for your information... the british NEVER asked for permission to build the lighthouse on pedra branca... malaysia did made such a claim.. but they have NO evidence to back up such a claim.the letters between the johor sultan and governor butterworth was clearly referring to the island call PEAK ROCK within the rumenia (romania) island group... which is next to johor.... as singapore has shown during the trial from the official letters of governor butterworth... to the johor sultan.... which malaysia has already grudgingly agreed.
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Since a place is uninhabitated, means belonging to "nobody"??? If a place is uninhabitated, why will the British ask permission from Johor for Peak Rock?
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Malaysian map claiming Pedra branca:
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The other islands involved :
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
Since a place is uninhabitated, means belonging to “nobody”???
If a place is uninhabitated, why will the British ask permission from Johor for Peak Rock?
that is because peak rock is within the 3nmi territorial water of johor... thus though it may not be inhabited.. it belongs to johor in the absence of other claimants... under the british system.
in the past prior to the concept of territorial water... the british mark their "territorial water" base on how far their cannon can shoot (defensible water) from their shores or harbour...
afterall... as the saying goes..., what you cannot defend do not belong to you... if the british cannon cant hit the tresspassing ships from their shore battery... its a moot point to insist someone is invading your water... and so this system was applied to johor who by then was more or less a vassal of the english empire...
malaysia federation treaty also clearly spelt that malaysia is made up of participating sultanate and any island within 3 nautical miles of the main land... (prior to this... the concept of territorial water is a western concept, malay rulers never had such a concept of owning a body of water.)
pedra branca was more then 3 nmi from either malaysia or indonesia.... thus under the british system ... its a No Man's land....
the 12 nautical mile territorial sea that most nation claim today...was only after the passing of the law of the sea in 1982.
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
This infomation from Wikipedia: The Malaysian state of Johor asserts that when Johor Sultanate ceded Singapore to the British in 1824, the island was not part of the secession and that the Sultan of Johor only allowed the British to construct a lighthouse on the island in 1844.[10] This follows a letter dated November 25 1844 from the Sultan and the Temenggung of Johor to the British which gave the British a permission to build a lighthouse on an island.[11] In 1824, Sultan of Johor ceded Singapore and the surrounding 10 nmi (18.5 km) to the British East India Company.[12] Pedra Branca is located 25 nmi (46.3 km) away from Singapore; the island is 7.7 nmi (14.3 km) away from Johor.[13]How could one concede something when one did not own it?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Malaysian map claiming Pedra branca:
this is a unilateral map from malaysia which is rejected by both indonesia and singapore.
however... there are something worthy of attention on that map... that is the black colour line drawn close to indonesia islands like a string...
those are official indonesian baseline... and you can see from the black line stretching from west to east... indonesia DO NOT claim pedra branca as its baseline did not use pedra branca as a reference point.
here is another map... from the official treaty between indonesia and malaysia on continental shelf boundary signed in 1969 (about 10 years before malaysia suddenly claim pedra branca with its 1979 map) which is available on the internet.
PB denotes the island pedra branca... but that is not the main point here.
look at point 11 and 12.. those are the official continental boundary between indonesia and malaysia (in the absence of singapore claim... singapore will no doubt claim its fair share once we win the case at ICJ)
point 11 never touch pedra branca... which indicates both nation do not claim pedra branca.
but MOST IMPORTANT of all is the thin red line next to the bold red line....
the thin red line is the OFFICIAL malaysian territory baseline.... look at where did it start! it started from the rumenia island group !! NOT from pedra branca!!
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Originally posted by Cowbaycowboo:
we all talk big.....we even write on toilet walls.....want to worry...better worry abt those within your nightmares.....like tomorrow u got $$ to pay your bills or $$ to see dcotor if kenna cnacer........got lighthouse or no lighthouse....wun not help u to settle bills or your 3 meals a day
It is interesting to note the chinese words "国家" have "state" before "home". It goes to show sovereignty should exist before home, and in that order, without a country, one cannot "eat" (...in your words)
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Originally posted by tripwire:
she wasnt the first... if you have read the ICJ transcripts... there were others in the navy before her who died around pedra branca... and as live would have it.. she wont be the last... be grateful for her sacrifice.
people has died for far less worthy cause... i just pray we win this case in ICJ... so that all those who have sacrificed their lives defending the island will not go to waste.
Clap Clap Clap! Could not have said it any better. We shall never forget.
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in conclusion... way back in 1969, more then 100 years since pedra branca belong to singapore...
malaysian officials as well as indonesian officials have accepted without question that the island pedra branca do not belong to either of them as neither of them use pedra branca as their territorial base line in international official treaties.
point 11 is a testament of that... otherwise it would have shifted (southward if pedra branca is malaysians territory, northward if pedra branca belongs to indonesia)rather then pointing straight at pedra branca.
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Originally posted by Arkansaw:
very important??
It is not more important than any other piece of land we can possibly wrest from Malaysia.
It is not more important than the people's livelihood.
It is not more important than rice, petrol and water.
If it is so important, we should have sent in the troops without the need for ICJ's intervention.
If there is a need to send troops, would you be the first to volunteer to hold a rifle at frontline 24/7?
It is strikingly odd that soldiers are the last to advocate sending troops while people are quite happy and quick to pursue Carl Von Clauswitz's dictum, "an extension of foreign policy/politics".
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Originally posted by Short Ninja:
We've got about 2 and half weeks left to call this rock island Pedra Branca
Ah... are you going to start a naming competition after ICJ's verdict?
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Originally posted by Jingle bell:
If there is a need to send troops, would you be the first to volunteer to hold a rifle at frontline 24/7?
It is strikingly odd that soldiers are the last to advocate sending troops while people are quite happy and quick to pursue Carl Von Clauswitz's dictum, "an extension of foreign policy/politics".
LoL, send troops to Pedra Branca for? Sun tan?While war is an extension of politics, politics isn't all about war.
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Originally posted by Jingle bell:
Ah... are you going to start a naming competition after ICJ's verdict?
Pulau Batu Puteh lah!! Apa lagi?
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hmmm... didn't log in for 1 day and its been so interesting...
to be fair, anyone who has read the transcripts of the ICJ with an open mind would come to an initial conclusion that both sides raised pretty good arguments but this mindless re-hash of the malaysian perspective really makes me wonder just how many malaysians are here trying to start a pissing contest.
i wasn't aware that the malaysian propaganda machine is so "powderful" that it has successfully brain-washed ordinary singaporeans into thinking that malaysian actually "owns" the island and the fight was over before it began.
to give credit where its due, it must be said that the singapore side did a better job of tying it all up, responding to opposing counsel's points and making it neat and persuasive.
did i mention that i especially liked the part when the light-house keeper's account of the sultan's visit to the island was read in full? it makes me wonder why a sultan visiting his "own island" would need to seek the governor's permission and use his boat for that purpose. Won't his orang laut subjects be honoured to ferry such a VIP?
no permission was sought from the sultan to build the lighthouse. but permission was sought by the sultan to visit it. hmmm...
the malaysian arguments were full of holes. if they did not damage their "historical" claim in the process, they certainly looked like clowns grasping at straws.
and that's not even bringing in that ridiculous photo they tried to pass off as "evidence"...
the only saving grace they had was sir elihu lauterpacht who managed to weave together the disparate and fragmented argument into something resembling coherence... i can only imagine how hard the poor old man must have worked to earn his fee for this particular representation...
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"It is interesting to note the chinese words "国家" have "state" before "home". It goes to show sovereignty should exist before home, and in that order, without a country, one cannot "eat" (...in your words)"
"while people are quite happy and quick to pursue Carl Von Clauswitz's dictum, "an extension of foreign policy/politics"."
Doesn't apply to 21st century's globalized and interconnected world. I would love to read Jingle's thesis on foreign policy someday...
" wasn't aware that the malaysian propaganda machine is so "powderful" that it has successfully brain-washed ordinary singaporeans into thinking that malaysian actually "owns" the island and the fight was over before it began."
Dont give a flying fuck. Are you the ICJ judge or international law expert. If not I suggest STFU.
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Originally posted by Uncle Ver SG:
"It is interesting to note the chinese words "国家" have "state" before "home". It goes to show sovereignty should exist before home, and in that order, without a country, one cannot "eat" (...in your words)"
"while people are quite happy and quick to pursue Carl Von Clauswitz's dictum, "an extension of foreign policy/politics"."
Doesn't apply to 21st century's globalized and interconnected world. I would love to read Jingle's thesis on foreign policy someday...
" wasn't aware that the malaysian propaganda machine is so "powderful" that it has successfully brain-washed ordinary singaporeans into thinking that malaysian actually "owns" the island and the fight was over before it began."
Dont give a flying fuck. Are you the ICJ judge or international law expert. If not I suggest STFU.
are you even a singaporean? i guess not....
afterall .... even a dog would defend its chewing bone...
given your traitorous statements.... either you are not a singaporean or you cant even compare to a dog....
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ai ya....extend the MRT line to the island by building underground station.
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Oral argument by Mr. Chao Hick Tin, Attorney-GenerOral argument by Mr. Chao Hick Tin, Attorney-General of the Republic of Singapore, 19 November 2007 al of the Republic of Singapore, 19 November 2007
http://app.mfa.gov.sg/generator/asppages/pedrabranca/press/read_content.asp?View,8943,
2.VERBATIM RECORD
YEAR 2007
Public sitting
held on Monday 19 November 2007, at 10 a.m., at the Peace Palace,
Vice-President Al-Khasawneh, Acting President, presiding
in the case concerning Sovereignty over Pedra Branca/Pulau Batu Puteh, Middle Rocks and South Ledge (Malaysia/Singapore)
________________
VERBATIM RECORD
________________
ANNÉE 2007
Audience publique
tenue le lundi 19 novembre 2007, à 10 heures, au Palais de la Paix,
sous la présidence de M. Al-Khasawneh, vice-président, faisant fonction de président
en l’affaire relative à la Souveraineté sur Pedra Branca/Pulau Batu Puteh, Middle Rocks et South Ledge (Malaisie/Singapour)
____________________
COMPTE RENDU
____________________3.Now you see it,now you dont
http://www.bloglah.org/Jeffooi/2007/11/20/Malaysia_uses_plagiarist_s_blog_to_claim_Pedra_Branca_at_ICJ_
4.whatever the outcome,treat it like a ball game.
ICJ is just a referee in a ball game.ICJ decision is final and conclusive.MY and SG knows this very well before
they agree brought the issue up to ICJ.
Lets move on,whatever the outcome.
There is no oil reserve in there ,yet!!
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Hmmm.......the island should be able to take the weight....
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Afterthat, they can import PRC groupies...
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Originally posted by idwar:
Hmmm.......the island should be able to take the weight....
oh grow up... the whole point of taking it to the ICJ was to have a matured settlement to the issue through impartial 3rd party arbitration.malaysia's big boys toys will have no bearing on the verdict now.
should've just spent their time and money on preparing a stronger case. its not as if singapore's arguments were drastically different from its written submissions... it was available for all to read for MONTHS...
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Originally posted by idwar:
Hmmm.......the island should be able to take the weight....
I wonder if those boys can handle the Ruski instruction manuals, or get those translated into Bahasa in time for it to get pass any surprises sprung by the stealthy Apaches guarding the island.Not a pretty sight to see, if those big boys get fried in the steel coffins - which will only add to the dust polution raised by the ashes from the fires that clear the palm oil plantations.
This clinically clean island can surely take the weight of more ashes coming over from the border.
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All will be made known on the 23rd.....
But I am wondering...... could Malaysia's Tank float all the way to Pedra Branca
