Sg males lagging behind in education standards due to Ns?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
i am not convinced. why 6 years of compulsory primary education then? why not 5?
there are so many direct/indirect variables/influences in your life that could scupper your goal. how is ns any different?
Actually, Sg has a very rigid system.
In other countries, when a child shows potential or surpasses the other classmates in academic and intellectual performances, the child is allowed to skip grades and grow according to his ability. Imagine a 15yo with a degree. A teenage maths genius taking his MBA. Can it happen in SG ?
Unlike SG, even if you are smarter and learn faster, you are dumbed down and not allowed to fast forward.
Goal is one thing. That is the final destination. The question is .. can you achieve it faster/sooner so you may yield more from it in your lifetime ?
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Originally posted by eagle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany
Compared to Singapore, all have to be conscripted; sg males have no choice.
If it was forced conscription in Germany, they wouldn't have merely an armed force of a small percentage of their population. Numbers here.
Okaaayyyy... so they are more able to defend their country compared to SG?????
Which side of the fence are you standing on?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Actually, Sg has a very rigid system.
In other countries, when a child shows potential or surpasses the other classmates in academic and intellectual performances, the child is allowed to skip grades and grow according to his ability. Imagine a 15yo with a degree. A teenage maths genius taking his MBA. Can it happen in SG ?
Unlike SG, even if you are smarter and learn faster, you are dumbed down and not allowed to fast forward.
Goal is one thing. That is the final destination. The question is .. can you achieve it faster/sooner so you may yield more from it in your lifetime ?
Agreed.
Sg education is way too rigid in the timeframe
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Okaaayyyy... so they are more able to defend their country compared to SG?????
Which side of the fence are you standing on?
This portion of the discussion is already sensitive; I'm not going further into it. Like what is said in military nuts, I'm not going to make any more comparisons between countries on this issue.
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Why do we need 2 years for NS? since we know that not the entire 2 years is truly utilised, like ppl have mentioned. guard duty. vocation. etc...
unless you aspire to be a security guard, then maybe stuff like guard duty will be helpful to you. but otherwise, its just more time wasting.
field camp? maybe it was be applicable in the 1970s. but now, everywhere is HDB alr. the enemy will not occupy ur useless forests which has no strategic, economic purpose, and risk being suck dry by mosquitoes. any possible war in spore would certainly involve iraq style urban combat. so whatever they have for you is pretty irrelevant anyway. that is, unless you are the invading force, which is quite unlikely.
if you slash away those irrelevant aspect of NS, and giving room for the typical singapore paranioa, 1 yr would do, actually.
To win a battle, the troops need to shoot accurately. however, that doesn't really seem to be strongly emphasized in the army. the accuracy of the average infantryman is pathetic.
as quoted, "the objective of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his" ~General George Patton
but the spore army seems more interested in training you to run as fast as possible. is that what you mean by meaningful?
yes, you do make friends in NS. thats something good. but, similarly, you can also make friends without going thru NS.
2yr NS may not be such a waste if they offer decent, competitive SALARY, instead of the peanuts allowance. if they can't afford to pay ppl decently, den they jolly well don't FORCE ppl into this poorly paid "service".
linking back to the issue about education. serving 2yrs of NS means u go to uni 2 yrs later. that means that your parents would have to work longer, to see you through your studies. (don't talk about prt-time job here, pls. that's only enough to offset your living cost, not your tuition fee).
many of these parents are almost at retirement age when their child enters uni. so they have to work longer, to see that their children can complete his or her course without financial difficulties (e.g., having to drop out cos you can't pay the tuition fee).
even if it does not set you back, it does set back those around you, economically or socially.
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even if it does not set you back, it does set back those around you, economically or socially.
Question: So why is it that it does not set some back, yet set others back?
Let me put this out first: I'm neutral in the policy of NS.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Question: So why is it that it does not set some back, yet set others back?
Let me put this out first: I'm neutral in the policy of NS.
Eh, not everyone is as smart as you ok ?
And not every parent is as well to do as yours.
Also, not everyone has the same aspiration as you.
Geesh eagle.. can you understand that not everyone is a clone of you ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Eh, not everyone is as smart as you ok ?
And not every parent is as well to do as yours.
Also, not everyone has the same aspiration as you.
Geesh eagle.. can you understand that not everyone is a clone of you ?
Well, I firmly believe everyone is equal. I'm not smart; everyone has the same potential. My parents are not well to do too; only sufficient funds to fund uni through CPF, which I have to pay back.
And with the sentence in red, whose fault will it be if that causes you to be set back behind others?
Geesh, again, another one who blames everything external and do nothing.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Well, I firmly believe everyone is equal. I'm not smart; everyone has the same potential. My parents are not well to do too; only sufficient funds to fund uni through CPF, which I have to pay back.
And with the sentence in red, whose fault will it be if that causes you to be set back behind others?
Geesh, again, another one who blames everything external and do nothing.
No dude, I don't blame everything else other than myself.
I need not go NS, but I also see no reason for our guys to spend more than 1 year in conscription either.
And there you have it, your parents have sufficient funds to put you through UNI. That is already an advantage you have over other guys.
With the two years, guys from poorer families can use that time to earn money to fund THEMSELVES through UNI.
So you think about it.. you sure you're not already betta off ?
Many times, it is not a matter of ability, rather a matter or circumstances.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Question: So why is it that it does not set some back, yet set others back?
Let me put this out first: I'm neutral in the policy of NS.
IMO,it depends on your perspectives and future plans.
if you are living your pre-ns life aimlessly, with no apparent aim in mind, then yes, maybe NS will be good for you, to sort your life out. you get to interact with ppl who DO have a plan in mind to pursue, and slowly be influenced by them, to develop a plan of what you intend to do.
In that case, you gain from NS, since you started out with NOTHING, and gain something important in return.
HOWEVER, to those who already HAVE a plan of what they want to do in their lives, NS is a very obvious obstacle to their plans. compared to those who doesn't have to do NS, they are placed at a disadvantageous position. the 2 yrs could be spent on a better paying job, to advance your career.
well, like i mentioned, the "allowance" ns pays is so pathetic. A mcdonald's cashier earns more per month than a NSF officer. does this make sense?
you are doing national service, at the request of the state. shouldn't they at least offer a more competitive salary, since that officially, singapore is a democratic, capitalist country that operates on the free market principle.
this set guys back by 2 years. in view of the established fact that males live on avg 3-5 yrs shorter than the avg female, we can't really afford to squander away our limited, precious life, on something we are not passionate about, on something which for most of the duration, invlove pointless task such as foot drills.
especially when you are doing all that sh!t for miserable pay, guarding the countries for foreigners that had, have or is going (select whatever which apply), replace you. when they are done in this country, they will simply pat their butts, and jump into another country, living you in the dust. by then, you will be a poor man past his prime, unwanted in the industries.
Isn't that a very obvious lag?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
No dude, I don't blame everything else other than myself.
I need not go NS, but I also see no reason for our guys to spend more than 1 year in conscription either.
And there you have it, your parents have sufficient funds to put you through UNI. That is already an advantage you have over other guys.
With the two years, guys from poorer families can use that time to earn money to fund THEMSELVES through UNI.
So you think about it.. you sure you're not already betta off ?
I can tell you I have enough funds to fund myself through uni without my parents. One of the reasons why it is CPF money was taken out because fixed D interest rates at that time was higher than the CPF rates.
Even without CPF, one can get a bank loan, and the interest only starts accruing immediately after graduation, not during uni. Meanwhile, one can easily teach sufficient tuition students (or other ways of earning) to cover the uni fees. At 25~30 per hour for merely O levels, it is not hard at all, especially when you hear stories of people teaching up to 8 tuition students.
And I have already mentioned earlier, I have a friend who have enough to fund himself 4 times the uni fees. He made all the money himself; he did not score as well, but i can definitely say he's much smarter. Both his networth and aspirations are much higher.
So ya, it is not anyone's fault if a fresh uni grad has to finance his debt right?
You see no reason for more than one year because you have no idea how multiple courses can add up to greater than one year for a number of vocations. That is, if you support the policy of NS in the first place.
And from two years in army, you can already save enough for a uni education even from the little amount they pay in army. It depends on how you use the money. For a person with a long term goal to save up for uni during army, it is not very hard at all, with the current pay structure.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
No dude, I don't blame everything else other than myself.
I need not go NS, but I also see no reason for our guys to spend more than 1 year in conscription either.
And there you have it, your parents have sufficient funds to put you through UNI. That is already an advantage you have over other guys.
With the two years, guys from poorer families can use that time to earn money to fund THEMSELVES through UNI.
So you think about it.. you sure you're not already betta off ?
Many times, it is not a matter of ability, rather a matter or circumstances.
i seriously agree. not all parents save up for their children' uni education.(can't bother to, can't afford to, etc)
you can go uni straight after ns, and come out to work as a uni grad.
those who can't afford to go uni,must first earn their tuition fee. an A level grad certainly does not earn much, to save enough to enter uni within 2 yrs of wrk. (if you are that poor to not being able to afford spore uni, most likely that you would also have to support yourself with ur own pay)
that way, these ppl may lag behind by at least 4-5 yrs. are you willing to do that?
don't tell me that 4 yrs is short. if it is, try holding ur breath for 4 yrs before you say anything. so isn't that an obvious impediment in the advancement of your future?
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
IMO,it depends on your perspectives and future plans.
if you are living your pre-ns life aimlessly, with no apparent aim in mind, then yes, maybe NS will be good for you, to sort your life out. you get to interact with ppl who DO have a plan in mind to pursue, and slowly be influenced by them, to develop a plan of what you intend to do.
In that case, you gain from NS, since you started out with NOTHING, and gain something important in return.
HOWEVER, to those who already HAVE a plan of what they want to do in their lives, NS is a very obvious obstacle to their plans. compared to those who doesn't have to do NS, they are placed at a disadvantageous position. the 2 yrs could be spent on a better paying job, to advance your career.
well, like i mentioned, the "allowance" ns pays is so pathetic. A mcdonald's cashier earns more per month than a NSF officer. does this make sense?
you are doing national service, at the request of the state. shouldn't they at least offer a more competitive salary, since that officially, singapore is a democratic, capitalist country that operates on the free market principle.
this set guys back by 2 years. in view of the established fact that males live on avg 3-5 yrs shorter than the avg female, we can't really afford to squander away our limited, precious life, on something we are not passionate about, on something which for most of the duration, invlove pointless task such as foot drills.
especially when you are doing all that sh!t for miserable pay, guarding the countries for foreigners that had, have or is going (select whatever which apply), replace you. when they are done in this country, they will simply pat their butts, and jump into another country, living you in the dust. by then, you will be a poor man past his prime, unwanted in the industries.
Isn't that a very obvious lag?
I don't disagree that the 2 years could have been spent on advancing your career. I also don't deny that the pay is pittance. But if someone were to plan their lives, they would have factored in NS into the planning. You know it is going to happen, you know it will take 2 years, you will know what is in store for you; you can thus definitely plan it such that even with NS, you can still succeed. NS is not something thrusted at you out of the blue.
Yet if one has nothing in mind at all, sad to say, NS will be a waste of time in one's development, since one will be in a 'protected' 2 years, safe from FTs, safe from being fired, being fed and paid an allowance, etc.
Anyway as I have said, I'm still neutral to the NS policy, so I won't give a reply to the last few paragraphs.
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Originally posted by eagle:
I can tell you I have enough funds to fund myself through uni without my parents. One of the reasons why it is CPF money was taken out because fixed D interest rates at that time was higher than the CPF rates.
And from two years in army, you can already save enough for a uni education even from the little amount they pay in army. It depends on how you use the money. For a person with a long term goal to save up for uni during army, it is not very hard at all, with the current pay structure.
so you are rich to start with. what about those who, due to their family financial status, do not have any savings to start with? bank loan. yes. but how much can you borrow? you need a gurrantor, showing prove that you can afford to repay the debt. since the person is already from a poor family, where can the person find a gurrantor for the bank loan to be approved?if you can't make it to local uni, the nxt best choice is aus uni, and they certainly ain't cheap. $25k/annum on avg. i doubt you can save enough for even one yr of studies, from your NS pay.
assuming that u remain a man for the entire 2 yrs of ns, drawing a pay of $350-400, and have to pay for everything yourself, not to mention support the family with whatever leftover, how much can you save at the end of the 2 yrs?
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Originally posted by deathmaster:
so you are rich to start with. what about those who, due to their family financial status, do not have any savings to start with? bank loan. yes. but how much can you borrow? you need a gurrantor, showing prove that you can afford to repay the debt. since the person is already from a poor family, where can the person find a gurrantor for the bank loan to be approved?if you can't make it to local uni, the nxt best choice is aus uni, and they certainly ain't cheap. $25k/annum on avg. i doubt you can save enough for even one yr of studies, from your NS pay.
assuming that u remain a man for the entire 2 yrs of ns, drawing a pay of $350-400, and have to pay for everything yourself, not to mention support the family with whatever leftover, how much can you save at the end of the 2 yrs?
No, I'm not rich to start with. I started with doing extra duties for others for a fee (ranging from $50 to $110 per time), and teaching tuition during NS and all the way to my 3rd year in uni.
And guarantor needs to show they earn a minimum of $600 a month to be one.
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Originally posted by eagle:
No, I'm not rich to start with. I started with doing extra duties for others for a fee (ranging from $50 to $110 per time), and teaching tuition during NS and all the way to my 3rd year in uni.
And guarantor needs to show they earn a minimum of $600 a month to be one.
You think guarantor so easy to find ah ?
Just because your relatives earns $10K per month does not means they are willing to be your guarantor ok ?
They also scared you cannot pay, they have to be responsible for the debt hor.
If they see you from poor family, they lagi don't dare to be your guarantor. OK ?
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Originally posted by eagle:
Even without CPF, one can get a bank loan, and the interest only starts accruing immediately after graduation, not during uni. Meanwhile, one can easily teach sufficient tuition students (or other ways of earning) to cover the uni fees. At 25~30 per hour for merely O levels, it is not hard at all, especially when you hear stories of people teaching up to 8 tuition students.
And I have already mentioned earlier, I have a friend who have enough to fund himself 4 times the uni fees. He made all the money himself; he did not score as well, but i can definitely say he's much smarter. Both his networth and aspirations are much higher.
So ya, it is not anyone's fault if a fresh uni grad has to finance his debt right?
You see no reason for more than one year because you have no idea how multiple courses can add up to greater than one year for a number of vocations. That is, if you support the policy of NS in the first place.
And from two years in army, you can already save enough for a uni education even from the little amount they pay in army. It depends on how you use the money. For a person with a long term goal to save up for uni during army, it is not very hard at all, with the current pay structure.
So everyone before NS go teach tuition ah ? Like that solve the problem issit ? If every pre-NS guy go give tuition, then your tuition fee will drop like cow dung ok ?
My friend had to help out his parents food stall whenever he is free, where got time to teach tuition ?
Other than tuition, what other jobs can a pre-NS guy do ?
You like army vocation so much , why don't you go sign up as a regular ?
Yah your fwen that one import FT to SG earn money one right ? He is not smart.. he is just benefiting at Sgrean's expense. So please, stop telling us his story,.. I'd spit on him if I get the chance.
I also got another fwen.. everytime he book out, he go help his father do delivery. He not like you, so quit bragging about how successful you are, because you live a priviledge life already ok? good.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
You think guarantor so easy to find ah ?
Just because your relatives earns $10K per month does not means they are willing to be your guarantor ok ?
They also scared you cannot pay, they have to be responsible for the debt hor.
If they see you from poor family, they lagi don't dare to be your guarantor. OK ?
Relatives who earn $600 a month already qualify.
They also scared you cannot pay, they have to be responsible for the debt hor.
If they see you from poor family, they lagi don't dare to be your guarantor. OK ?
So you are saying that poor families do not have integrity? Mind you, a uni grad will earn enough nowadays to support a 'poor' family easily.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Relatives who earn $600 a month already qualify.
So you are saying that poor families do not have integrity? Mind you, a uni grad will earn enough nowadays to support a 'poor' family easily.
Excwees me.. I never say they got no integrity hor.
You are putting yourself in risk when you take on a guarantor role ok ? Don't any how sign the paper to be guarantor ok ? Because when they run away, you have to pay off the debt yourself.
It must be you never had to beg for a loan, so please don so ya ya say like everything so easy ok ?
And besides that hor, integrity is very subjective one.
I also know uni grad can earn more.. but if you don even have money to go uni.. how to earn that post-uni pay ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
So everyone before NS go teach tuition ah ? Like that solve the problem issit ? If every pre-NS guy go give tuition, then your tuition fee will drop like cow dung ok ?
My friend had to help out his parents food stall whenever he is free, where got time to teach tuition ?
Other than tuition, what other jobs can a pre-NS guy do ?
You like army vocation so much , why don't you go sign up as a regular ?
Yah your fwen that one import FT to SG earn money one right ? He is not smart.. he is just benefiting at Sgrean's expense. So please, stop telling us his story,.. I'd spit on him if I get the chance.
I also got another fwen.. everytime he book out, he go help his father do delivery. He not like you, so quit bragging about how successful you are, because you live a priviledge life already ok? good.
No, not the one who import FTs. This one is a friend that is damn zai. He went from ITE to Poly to NUS because of his determination. He worked as cleaner/road sweeper, waiter, property agent, and invested in an array of things, all by himself, to reach what he has today => perfect example of the many ways one can earn for oneself.
I mentioned tuition because that was what I did and what I was good in and had interest in. So you mean doing deliveries is not helping his dad earn money? That few bucks per hour saved can add up to quite an amount for his dad over 2 years. I'm giving a thumbs up for your friend, really. I'm directing my posts to those who complained, yet do nothing when they book out or during resting time in army.
All in all, I'm just damn impressed by people who worked substantially before graduating. I consider myself far behind that, which is the reason why I'm trying to catch up by not only doing a full-time job, but also a part-time job at the same time. My current thinking is, since I'm already behind others, I will do my best to catch up. Like the friend I mentioned above, he will be starting on a full-time job and be part-time as a property agent. His aspiration is to start a company that is scalable and profitable within 5 years.
And I think you have comprehension problem. Nowhere did I mentioned I like army vocation -.-
Finally, I'm not even talking about me being sucessful; I'm not even close yet. Success is much much more than just in studies. It is also helping people and contributing back to society (does not include taxes to govt)
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Excwees me.. I never say they got no integrity hor.
You are putting yourself in risk when you take on a guarantor role ok ? Don't any how sign the paper to be guarantor ok ? Because when they run away, you have to pay off the debt yourself.
It must be you never had to beg for a loan, so please don so ya ya say like everything so easy ok ?
And besides that hor, integrity is very subjective one.
I also know uni grad can earn more.. but if you don even have money to go uni.. how to earn that post-uni pay ?
Well, if it is my nephew or niece, and I know his dad/mum is one that has a history of being very responsible, I will be a guarantor. I have a guarantor for withdrawing the CPF for school fees hor. You think it was easy for me to find one last time?
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Originally posted by eagle:
No, not the one who import FTs. This one is a friend that is damn zai. He went from ITE to Poly to NUS because of his determination. He worked as cleaner/road sweeper, waiter, property agent, and invested in an array of things, all by himself, to reach what he has today => perfect example of the many ways one can earn for oneself.
I mentioned tuition because that was what I did and what I was good in and had interest in. So you mean doing deliveries is not helping his dad earn money? That few bucks per hour saved can add up to quite an amount for his dad over 2 years. I'm giving a thumbs up for your friend, really. I'm directing my posts to those who complained, yet do nothing when they book out or during resting time in army.
All in all, I'm just damn impressed by people who worked substantially before graduating. I consider myself far behind that, which is the reason why I'm trying to catch up by not only doing a full-time job, but also a part-time job at the same time. My current thinking is, since I'm already behind others, I will do my best to catch up. Like the friend I mentioned above, he will be starting on a full-time job and be part-time as a property agent. His aspiration is to start a company that is scalable and profitable within 5 years.
And I think you have comprehension problem. Nowhere did I mentioned I like army vocation -.-
Finally, I'm not even talking about me being sucessful; I'm not even close yet. Success is much much more than just in studies. It is also helping people and contributing back to society (does not include taxes to govt)
No, my fwen do delivery for his dad is not to earn extra money. He is trying to help out so his father who is already sufferring from arthritis takes a break during his bookout weekends. And his father also had to work double shift just so his son can go uni because the father also no want his son fall behind his peers. Yes it all pays off in the end, but you can imagine the kind of hardship they had to go through to ensure his future is secured.
2 years to you, may be chicken feed, but to others it's a big deal.
You may be directing your dissapointment at the losers and slackers. But have you also considered your postings may also be demeaning to people who are genuinely hardworking but due to circumstances are not able to be what you think is so "achievable"?
And excwees me again.. perhaps it is not me having comprehension problem, it is maybe YOu have problems expressing yourself ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
No, my fwen do delivery for his dad is not to earn extra money. He is trying to help out so his father who is already sufferring from arthritis takes a break during his bookout weekends. And his father also had to work double shift just so his son can go uni because the father also no want his son fall behind his peers. Yes it all pays off in the end, but you can imagine the kind of hardship they had to go through to ensure his future is secured.
2 years to you, may be chicken feed, but to others it's a big deal.
You may be directing your dissapointment at the losers and slackers. But have you also considered your postings may also be demeaning to people who are genuinely hardworking but due to circumstances are not able to be what you think is so "achievable"?
And excwees me again.. perhaps it is not me having comprehension problem, it is maybe YOu have problems expressing yourself ?
To those that are hardworking, I have already expressed how impressed I was.
All in all, I'm just damn impressed by people who worked substantially before graduating.
Which part of my posts are 'demeaning to people who are genuinely hardworking but due to circumstances are not able to be what you think is so "achievable"'?
I have already told you "I'm giving a thumbs up for your friend" and that "I'm directing my posts to those who complained, yet do nothing when they book out or during resting time in army". Are you acting dumb or?
And
my fwen do delivery for his dad is (not) to earn extra money.
is so different from
So you mean doing deliveries is not helping his dad earn money? That few bucks per hour saved can add up to quite an amount for his dad over 2 years
I didn't say he was doing it to earn extra money. If his dad can't do it, it is either the son does it, or the dad employs someone else to do it. That is why it is 'saved'. You seriously have a comprehension problem.
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Originally posted by eagle:
To those that are hardworking, I have already expressed how impressed I was.
Which part of my posts are 'demeaning to people who are genuinely hardworking but due to circumstances are not able to be what you think is so "achievable"'?
I have already told you "I'm giving a thumbs up for your friend" and that "I'm directing my posts to those who complained, yet do nothing when they book out or during resting time in army". Are you acting dumb or?
And
is so different from
I didn't say he was doing it to earn extra money. If his dad can't do it, it is either the son does it, or the dad employs someone else to do it. That is why it is 'saved'. You seriously have a comprehension problem.
Uh huh.
You very smart lor. Ok ? Happy ?
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Uh huh.
You very smart lor. Ok ? Happy ?
Again, I have already mentioned to you "I firmly believe everyone is equal. I'm not smart; everyone has the same potential."
Really dunno what you are doing.... -.-"