Singapore government does not support sexual equality
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Do you agree with the above statement? Personally I feel that the Singapore government is more in favour of women than men. The time is past where women were mistreated and womens' rights was a big issue, in Singapore at any rate.
Especially under the law there are various instances where women seem to get off more lightly than men.
First, there is the heated NS issue. Why is it that men are forced under the law to endure two years of this hell, while women are not? The line the Singaporean government has been standing by is that "women contribute to society in other ways", but to this day I have not yet heard a satisfactory response as to how women can contribute to society in ways that men cannot. Is it fair that men are treated so badly when they are drawn into NS, and that women avoid it altogether? I mean, if we are there to protect our country, we are doing something FOR the country. Surely in return we do not deserve to be unreasonably treated? I shall not go into specifics as to how NSmen can be treated unfairly because I know that many of you guys already have dozens of horror stories to tell. Meanwhile the women are able to use the two years to either further their educations or perhaps begin their career/ gain work experience etc. They say that the women respect us for protecting our nation, but do they really? No, in practice they laugh at us and the idealogies that our national education teaches. They are simply glad that they are not victims of the system and instead stand by to laugh at us. I am not saying that our government does not have good reasons for the National Service system, far from it, but what I feel is wrong is that men have to endure the physical and mental "torture" they put us through while women do not. Are women above us? Are we not equal?
Then there are the various other issues. One other major one is the issue on caning. Why is it that when women, even schoolgirls, are protected under the law from caning, men and boys of similar ages are not? Why is it that girls get off more lightly? I have personally heard a school principal who expelled a female student say that if she were a boy she would have been caned long ago. Why is it that women cannot be caned? Is there a valid reason for this? I do not know, perhaps a professional in medicine or law can provide greater insight on this matter. YET, even if there are valid medical reasons why women cannot be caned, why is it that men should be subject to this? If women cannot be subject to this, I don't think men should be either. I think the rights of men should be protected.
It is obvious, and many a lawyer will tell you so, that under the law women tend to get away more lightly than men. Is this fair? I do accept that physically women have been proven scientifcally to be weaker: for example production of the hormone estrogen reduces their ability to gain muscle mass as quickly as men. Yet should they not still bear their share of the burden? Do they not still bear responsibility equal to that of a man's when they violate the law?
I wish to make it clear here that I do not accuse the Singaporean government of doing these things without reason. Yet even with reason, is it fair that men bear greater consequences for just being men? I think it's time for a Men's Charter.
What are your views?
EDIT: I would like to quote deathmaster because I think what he said is also relevant to my argument.
look at the law. it is obviously bias.
while 377a is against gays, it has NOTHING on lesbians.
when a couple divorce, the wife (or ex-wife), can gain up to 50% of the husband's assets. ( even when she contributes nothing to the assets). let say, you (male), inherited a bungalow from your decreased grandfather. you were an average bloke all along, not too rich, not poor either.
when you divorce, half of your ANCESTOR's hard earn money(in the form of the bungalow) disappear to the ex-wife.
is this reasonable? if the house is co-paid by the couple, that to me, splitting half-half is acceptable. but in the above case i mentioned, do anyone here thinks that its fair?
don't tell me that this is a hypothetical scenario. these cases are frequently reported in the news.
you can argue that its all right, since the women bears child for their husband, tend the house etc. but, as we all know, there are alot of tai-tai out there, who live the life of luxury, with all their comforts paid for by their husbands.
maids to do their housework. some of them don't even have children. so what is their justification in claiming 50% of their spouse assets?
and since this discrimination against men is written in the law, linking back to the question, doesn't it tells us that our government does not support sexual equality?
doesn't it shows that the government does not protects men's rights as vigorously as it protects women's rights?
Another issue is regarding hair length. In our mordern society it is no longer frowned upon for men to have hair styles with long hair. Yet under MOE regulations most, if not all, our schools requires boys to have their hair short, while girls are allowed to retain their hairstyles as long as they keep it tied up. Even during reservice training, our men go in only to come out bald again. What if someone was working as a model for an agency and was picked by a designer to do a certain job? Then he gets called in for reservice and BAM he's lost a job because he no longer has the look that the designer wants to model.
I think Singapore's laws and rules need to be relevant to the times. Many schools claim to be "geared to the times" but clearly this is not entirely so. For boys, having a short haircut apparently means that they are "disciplined". So that means girls are allowed to run around "undisciplined"? A haircut does not make a man's character. Below is a link to a blog writing about such experiences with NS training. Read to the bottom of the page. =)
http://singaporepeasants.blogspot.com/2007/07/non-replies-and-salaries.html
Another fantastic link provided by deathmaster again regarding caning:
http://www.topix.com/forum/world/singapore/TI4P234TIAJ7G27GL/p3#lastPost
(Comments written by richard on that page are exceptionally persuasive.)
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ä½ å“ªä¸€ä½�呀？
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Huh? What? >_>
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here's the solution for you ...
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well, true la. anyway i never believed in the agenda of the women's rights group.
they don't want equal rights. they want equal opportunity, but they don't want equal responsibility. shrugs
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Originally posted by Fatum:
here's the solution for you ...
Or I could break my arm and find some way to make it stay broken. >_>
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Women give birth...most do...majority do...i think...
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Originally posted by kramnave:
Women give birth...most do...majority do...i think...
At least not so in the case of our nation, we have a dismal fertility rate.But I don't think you should let females who do not want to take up the mantle of being woman deter you from being a man actually, and it's a poor excuse.
Ultimately we can be born female or male, but being a woman or man is a matter of choice and responsibilities. I will protect and cherish those that matter to me because I know it's expected of my duty as a guy, and I will do it regardless of if the female in question is acting like a woman or not.
But there are worthy ladies out there who don't abuse their rights, spend your energy and time on them instead.
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Mr Sean,
I believe your frustrations are misdirected.
Linking women's rights/equality with your reluctance to perform your conscription is not being very fair.
As a female, I also agree that spending 2 years to get basic military training is wayy too long. 1 year is sufficient. If I can have my way, 6 months is fine.
With technological advances, I believe females can also play an important role in non combative positions. But how many of these positions are available ? And does it require handling of sensitive informations ?
As much as I agree females can also play a part in defending her country. But may I ask, when war befalls our country, who will take care of your children ? Who will take care of the old and sick ?
How the way men are being treated in NS has nothing to do with the women folks.
It is you MEN who feels justified to treat fellow men with no dignity. It is MEN yourself who feels treating fellow men with harsh punishments makes a boy into a man. I beg to differ. All these talks about how NS makes one a man is baffling to me. So those men in other countries whom never goes through harsh military training are ... not men or less of it ?
Men who went through harsh NS wants to see other men go through the same misery. And it's also about bragging rights isn't it ?
Do you think a mother will be happy seeing her son gets such harsh treatment ? Do you really believe a female wants to see her man gets kicked around ? NO.
Men can handle more physical pain, women can handle more emotional pain. Perhaps that is why different punishments are meted out based on gender.
Personally, I don't see caning as a physical punishment, it's more due to our "Shaming" culture in Asia.
When you cane in front of public you are essentially shaming the receiver. If it is just a form of physical punishment it CAN be done in private ? Yes ?
I also believe ALL physical punishments should be banned from educational institutions.
So, don't blame women for requesting equal opportunities.
It wasn't our idea to force men into NS.
And it wasn't our idea men treat men badly either.
Even if there is no women's charter, will men treat fellow men any betta ? I doubt it.
May I remind you that the Women's Charter is to protect women from irresponsible men. And protection from double standards men inflict on women folks. How many men remarries after they walk out of the family? How many men are willing to settle with a divorced woman with children ? Is this equality ?
So your men's charter is to protect men from what ? Irresponsible wifes ? or practices that discriminate against men ?????
Does bringing the same level of misery men suffers to women folks equates to gender equality ? No, thats just being vindictive.
If you are fighting a cause for fellow men, leave the women folks out of it.
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sg women contribute to sg society by saying local men not good enough and marrying ang moh men to increase the number of ang mohs in sg to satisfy sg society fetish of worshipping ang moh men.
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Starting to feel that your rights being challenged eh ?
LoL
How about men's right to have the sudden urge or horniness. Too much testosterones. We call it.. the 'Horn Dog Syndrome' HDS . its like women's PMS. How come men being discrimated at when they act out of place sometimes due to a natural biological symptom that almost all men will go through ah.
;p
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Originally posted by BadzMaro:
Starting to feel that your rights being challenged eh ?
LoL
How about men's right to have the sudden urge or horniness. Too much testosterones. We call it.. the 'Horn Dog Syndrome' HDS . its like women's PMS. How come men being discrimated at when they act out of place sometimes due to a natural biological symptom that almost all men will go through ah.
;p
Dude, I suggest you read up on PMS, or go ask your mother what it's all about.
What do you mean by being discriminated ? Talking cock is not part of it , no ?
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About that NS thing......I dont know the exact reason or policy studies......I just have my own theory....
I think......
Women are not suitable for fighting.....
Since military is essentially figthing.....so.....cannot..
If we look at history...since the cave age.......the tribal age....always the men fighting......progress to medieval age......kingdoms......and WW1, WW2....always men fighting.....even in todays world, bar fights, u will see men fighting.....soccer riots...again men fighting....
I think women are not suitable physically and mentally for fighting, and military is essentially organized fighting.
If we see other countries, I think only Israel conscript the women?
And all other countries, they restrict the position of women in military, mostly non-combat roles?
They have found out the answer to ur question.....so this issue, no need to re-invent the wheel...so to speak.
And about women not getting caned......hmmm...maybe caning women is considered inhumane by society.....Similar to caning children or elderly people. No need to re-invent the wheel again. This is just the way our society is. This is ingrained. In many parts of the world, when robbers or terrorists take hostages, they sometimes release the women and keep the males as hostages.....why....? Same thing....Even when u are a teenager, if u are a male, u will hesitate to slap a girl, but wont hesitate to punch a guy. True...? Thats just the way we are. No need to make alot of theories on it and saying there is no equality.
Meat Pao.
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Men are Unequal to themselves, so are women unequal to themselves.
To benefit from this, you need to move to the upper level of the Food Chain.
This world was never Equal. The courtroom is not Equal.
You only have 60-80 years more if you live long enuf to find something else to think about.
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Go watch GI Jane the movie.
There is one part in which some guy comments that people are not prepared to see their women in body bags.
Might help answer some of the questions about women getting conscripted or not getting conscripted into the army.
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Hmm, they follow british laws and so on.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Dude, I suggest you read up on PMS, or go ask your mother what it's all about.
What do you mean by being discriminated ? Talking cock is not part of it , no ?
U got your time of the month. We got ours. I'm just saying..
pfffftttt.... men also get discriminated at. talking cock is not part of what ?
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@kramnave: The thing about having children is that both men and women have to be involved. Just because the woman carries it around for 9 months does not mean a man doesn't insert his sperm before that. Also to the people who feel the women are the ones who take care of the children etc... Don't you see? It's stereotyping. Am I to believe therefore that men are unable to take care of children or old people? I don't think that's very fair. Take the medical field for example. True, the number of women who are nurses is higher than the number of men, but that's just because men have to conform to the stereotypical view that men should not be nurses. Of course, that is gradually changing now. And anyways there are many more male doctors. Do male doctors not take care of people as well?
@Singaporetyrannosaur: You said that protecting our country is expected of us as guys. Here again is another stereotypical view. I do not understand why people feel guys are the ones who have to protect our country. Do women not share equal responsibility (or so they claim)? You also said that being a man or woman would dictate our choices and responsibilities. Again stereotyping is upon us. Why is it that we have to conform to the traditional way of men working out there and women being the ones at home? Women are going out to work now more than ever. Why can't men stay home and get to know their children too? Also, if being a woman and man is about choices and responsibilities, then I think it's rather unfair that the choice to be a man or woman is not one that is given to us. (Well except for the scissors I guess.)
@jojobeach: See above my response to kramnave, the part about taking care of children/ old people. You also said something about non-combative positions. My point here is not that NS was done without reason, far from it. Nor am I saying that women have all plotted against us to have us go through torture. I'm just saying that it's unfair that men have to go through something nasty while women don't have to go through something equally nasty.
You also said that men are physically stronger and mentally weaker than women. Again, stereotyping. It is true that men tend to be physically stronger because of hormone production; yet I would never dare to say that women are all weaker. Also when it comes to being emotionally strong, women are not necessarily stronger. In fact women can be emotionally weaker too, possibly due to fluctuations in their hormone levels. Nevertheless, whether weaker or stronger, I still do not see why men have to go through NS while women do not go through something equally stressful for them.
With regards to caning you did not make mention as to why it is different for men and women so I shall not comment much further on that. If men can be shamed, women should be shamed for their wrongdoings too.
You talked about how women too, feel the stress when the men they know are in NS. Truly, do you think that the little bit of stress they go through just from knowing that their loved ones are in NS justifies not having any other responsibilities?
I think you have misunderstood me to some degree. I am not saying that women are responsible for our suffering, far from it. I'm just saying that I think that if our government wishes to put our men through hell, shouldn't they have something for women too? Perhaps you are right and I am being vindictive; but as far as I'm concerned equal rights means equal responsibility, as quoted from dumbdumb! above. It is not fair that men have to go through something and women do not share an equal burden.
You also talked about how men are torturing each other. Perhaps you are right in this respect, but again remember I am not saying it is the fault of women that we have to go through this. Anyway even if it is men torturing each other, doesn't the government have a responsibility to do something about it? The problem is they don't think it's wrong.
@MeatPao: Many people have a similar mindset to yours. It's there, so it's there. Let's just leave it. Why? Why is it wrong to question our system just once in a while to make sure it is still relevant? The system of men fighting and women staying at home, as you said, has long been ingrained in society for centuries, globally. Yet women are starting to step out of their homes to work. Has hell's monster been unleashed? No, the system is changing to be relevant to the world today. Why can't we change this too? Just believing that other people have their reasons for doing something is not reason enough for us to follow on blindly.
@Charlize: I'm not saying that women definitely should go to the military or something. Maybe they could serve society in a way that is equally stressful. What you said is not untrue, indeed one reason that women have restricted positions in the military is that they feel men may be distracted. However that does not mean that women deserve to lead an easier life than us.
I think the mindset of society has to change.
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Originally posted by jojobeach:
Mr Sean,
I believe your frustrations are misdirected.
Linking women's rights/equality with your reluctance to perform your conscription is not being very fair.
As a female, I also agree that spending 2 years to get basic military training is wayy too long. 1 year is sufficient. If I can have my way, 6 months is fine.
With technological advances, I believe females can also play an important role in non combative positions. But how many of these positions are available ? And does it require handling of sensitive informations ?
As much as I agree females can also play a part in defending her country. But may I ask, when war befalls our country, who will take care of your children ? Who will take care of the old and sick ?
How the way men are being treated in NS has nothing to do with the women folks.
It is you MEN who feels justified to treat fellow men with no dignity. It is MEN yourself who feels treating fellow men with harsh punishments makes a boy into a man. I beg to differ. All these talks about how NS makes one a man is baffling to me. So those men in other countries whom never goes through harsh military training are ... not men or less of it ?
Men who went through harsh NS wants to see other men go through the same misery. And it's also about bragging rights isn't it ?
Do you think a mother will be happy seeing her son gets such harsh treatment ? Do you really believe a female wants to see her man gets kicked around ? NO.
Men can handle more physical pain, women can handle more emotional pain. Perhaps that is why different punishments are meted out based on gender.
Personally, I don't see caning as a physical punishment, it's more due to our "Shaming" culture in Asia.
When you cane in front of public you are essentially shaming the receiver. If it is just a form of physical punishment it CAN be done in private ? Yes ?
I also believe ALL physical punishments should be banned from educational institutions.
So, don't blame women for requesting equal opportunities.
It wasn't our idea to force men into NS.
And it wasn't our idea men treat men badly either.
Even if there is no women's charter, will men treat fellow men any betta ? I doubt it.
May I remind you that the Women's Charter is to protect women from irresponsible men. And protection from double standards men inflict on women folks. How many men remarries after they walk out of the family? How many men are willing to settle with a divorced woman with children ? Is this equality ?
So your men's charter is to protect men from what ? Irresponsible wifes ? or practices that discriminate against men ?????
Does bringing the same level of misery men suffers to women folks equates to gender equality ? No, thats just being vindictive.
If you are fighting a cause for fellow men, leave the women folks out of it.
What do you know?
If NS is supposed to produce a conscript force, what good is 6 months?
My training alone took 8 months.
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@OH-FF: You said that the world is unfair. That everything is unfair. Does that necessarily mean this is the natural order of things and that we absolutely have to leave it like that? Also see above my reply to meatpao... I think what I wrote for him is relevant in my reply to you as well.
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One thing to note:
What is education? Why create levels of Education? To create Levels of Authority? or Create Levels of Educated?
Every level you are at , creates unfairness to other levels. The World is educated this way. It does not matter if your neighbour's cat have more to eat or yours?
Only one thing is Equal, the sun rises and sets and the moon comes out of the Lighted sky and is illuminated by the night.
People are classified. Women, they have never since stopped to Justify that the men must pay the price for laying them?
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@OH-FF: Different levels of education/ qualification are based on your achievements. These are things you have worked for.
Being a man or woman - last I heard mom didn't ask me which one I wanted to be before she had me.
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Yes, some people have achieved more by creating rules to let you work so hard and never achieve them.
Sorry you are already born into this unfair world, you see it as it is. Learn to live with it.
There are different prices both genders have to pay to get ahead in their lives.
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Serious national service is at least 2 years. I believe Israel or S. Korea is longer. Unless the Government wants to make it more of a joke than it already is, lowering it anymore will render the whole thing meaningless. As it is, the Israelis have severe training problems and professionalism is terrible. We are, just slightly better than our neighbours.
That aside, however, Chinese Parents still have latent patriarchal tendencies, or very blatant ones, and female conscription would probably be very politically unpopular.
But.. frankly, I don't care.
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MrSean,
I can tell you haven't really done much reseach in psychological, physical/structural differences between female and male. Therefore you accuses anyone seeking to explain why there is a segregation in roles we play in our society as "stereotyping"
Is this statement stereotyping ? " All Men have penis, women have vaginas"
Do you know, that the brain of a female is wired differently than a male's ? That is why more males are engineers and more females excel in human related fields.
Ofcors, all of us can do what the other can. ( other than in the reproductive arena).
The question is, how well can one gender perform compared to the other in a specific role ?
Everyone can raise a child, male or female, young or old. But how well can one do it ?
In times of crisis, how will you deploy your human resources ?
I will send out whoever does better at getting the job done.
In times of war, if the man don't wanna go fight it, the women folks will, but can the men trust the women to win it ? Can they put their lives in the hands of women to protect the country ?
Can you trust that women can fight and win a men's war ?
Can the women leave for the battlefield knowing that her child and old folks will be well taken care of if she dies ?
Will the children not cry for their mother at night while she lays dead on the battlefield ?
Does men has this natural survival mechanism commonly known as " mother instinct" ?
Can a female shoot a rifle ? Sure.. I've done it. Can a female drive a tank ? Sure, I'd do it.
Can I kill a whole village with high tech weaponry ? With the right motivation and training. I believe I will.
So, can a woman fight a war ? YES WE CAN.
Now, give me a good reason why women shouldn't rule the world ? And when that happens, there will be NO more war.
About this, men goes to work and females stay home thing. I also agree, it shouldn't be this way. Whoever can do a better job, gets the job.
Where I live, men can stay home if the wife takes home the bigger pay.
My neighbour is a Mr Mom. His wife is a surgeon. He stays home takes care of his 3 kids. Send them to school, feed them meals, be their tutor, chauffer the kids to all their ECAs, puts the children to bed. Provide emotional and logistical support to his wife. He's happy, but is he doing a betta job than his wife? Not really.
Prioritising what is most important to the family, bread and butter comes first.
In our Asian culture where male ego dominates better practices, can this happen ? Are the men willing to do it ?
If they don't mind it, I say, " Bring it on !"
I also feels the NS policy has become irrelevant, and we all know it's really about power and the politics that works within the echelons of our policy makers.
Gender inequality permeates every aspects of our Asian culture. We live by the rules set by someone who lives in the ancient world.
Why is it that when a guy use swear words it is ok and not when it comes from a girl's mouth ?
Why is it that when a girl smokes, it's not very nice, while it is ok for a guy to be a walking chimney ?
Why is it that when a guy goes to a prostitute, it's to relief a need ? while a girl is cheap and a bitch when she hires a gigolo ?
Until men themselves stop balking at a female who behaves like a man, there will be NO gender equality.
Instead of seeking to bring misery to the other gender.
Why not seek to abolish the "nasty" treatment to humanity as a whole?
Why, you ask, shouldn't the female be shamed too ? My question to you is, why is there a need to shame AT ALL ?