what is wrong with catherine lim?
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If WKS should be chopped, should not then LEE hsien long be chopped also becos he failed to ensure WKS does his job well....
We cannot keep chopping people as if they are carrots.
Comparing companies with government is also inapropriate......simply because their roles and characteristics are different in many senses...
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she just feels not all the appropriate people were punished...period.
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There is nothing wrong with Catherine Lim sharing her opinion. If Singapore is to become a more open society, we will have to start accepting the fact that not everyone will share our opinion, and neither will everyone will think the way we do. Acceptance and tolerance of differences in the diverse populace is one sign of a truly cosmopolitan society.
However, the above doesn't apply to totally OTT (over-the-top), fanatical ideas that are totally irrational, without basis and which push the boundaries of logic and sensibilities!
In any case, it is a question of ethics. In countries like Japan, Taiwan or the US (and I'm sure there are many other examples), Ministers who fail in their job will accept responsibility and step down as a form of apology to the citizens for failing to be vigilant and having something undesirable and of huge consequence happen during their watch. They are often not directly responsible for the error, but it is an acknowledgement of their responsibility, and an honourable demonstration of integrity.
Leaders who uphold high moral ethics will always inspire followers who respect them. Likewise, leaders who demonstrate a self-serving attitude and who shirk full responsibilities for major mistakes will just invite ridicule and frustration from the masses. We might not be able to do anything about it... for now... but the sense of incredulousness and the loss of respect will not wane.
Hell, even CEO's have been known to quit over mistakes committed during their watch! Should we expect even less from leaders of an entire country?!
If not an outright resignation, then at least some form of censure, some sincere apology and acknowledgement of responsibility. The way the situation has been handled thus far leaves much to be desired. I am sure there has been much collective rumblings over the issue from the grassroots level up. I think from the kopitiam to the spanking, posh corporate suites, the same dissent is being voiced.
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Rhonda, is this the kind of society we want, whereby the top man resigns or be censured, for mistakes not of his own?
Hasn't our society been the kind that 'if it was my mistake, i accept full responsibility, but hell if i am gonna take the rapt for someone's else mistake!'?
What other nations do is their wish, and what we do is ours. We need not 'ape' anyone just to look good. We want pragmatic solutions, not theatre acts where real lives are concerned.
If you feel DPM Wong is to take the blame for the officers who had been negligent, then with equal measure, shouldn't DPM Wong take all credit for the safety and security, and low crime rate here in Singapore we had enjoyed during his tenure? And you want his head for mistakes made by others, operator fault and not systemic, in this single episode of Mas's escape?
Hadn't a remorseful and contrite DPM Wong give a full public apology, even when it was not his fault, but for his department, to all in print and the media? Are you still human? And how many actually want his head? Must a fully functioning society bow before the irrational minority asking for a side-show?
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Mr Wong should take responsibility and resign.
Our ministers are paid the highest in the world and yet when things screw up, nothing happens.
Really sad that there is no check and balances in government.
Pay themselves highest, screw up don't resign, all protect themselves.
I wonder how long the status quo will last.
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Originally posted by january:
If WKS should be chopped, should not then LEE hsien long be chopped also becos he failed to ensure WKS does his job well....
We cannot keep chopping people as if they are carrots.
Comparing companies with government is also inapropriate......simply because their roles and characteristics are different in many senses...
Is LHL the minister of home affairs? As for your last point, the government has said a few times that Singapore has to be run in an efficient manner, suggesting that this country has to be run in a corporate like manner for maximum efficiency and self sustainability. -
Originally posted by Point_blank:
Rhonda, is this the kind of society we want, whereby the top man resigns or be censured, for mistakes not of his own?
Hasn't our society been the kind that 'if it was my mistake, i accept full responsibility, but hell if i am gonna take the rapt for someone's else mistake!'?
What other nations do is their wish, and what we do is ours. We need not 'ape' anyone just to look good. We want pragmatic solutions, not theatre acts where real lives are concerned.
If you feel DPM Wong is to take the blame for the officers who had been negligent, then with equal measure, shouldn't DPM Wong take all credit for the safety and security, and low crime rate here in Singapore we had enjoyed during his tenure? And you want his head for mistakes made by others, operator fault and not systemic, in this single episode of Mas's escape?
Hadn't a remorseful and contrite DPM Wong give a full public apology, even when it was not his fault, but for his department, to all in print and the media? Are you still human? And how many actually want his head? Must a fully functioning society bow before the irrational minority asking for a side-show?
Well, the government has mentioned many times that our security is "world class" Yes, WKS already has taken the credit for providing "world class" security for the past few years in the form of "world class" million dollar salaries and bonuses.
Now that Mas Selemat has escape, the government has essentially failed to provide the citizens with "world class" security. He must be replaced with somebody who can live up to that promise, or take a pay cut for his inability to provide "world class" security.
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Originally posted by january:
If WKS should be chopped, should not then LEE hsien long be chopped also becos he failed to ensure WKS does his job well....
We cannot keep chopping people as if they are carrots.
Comparing companies with government is also inapropriate......simply because their roles and characteristics are different in many senses...
How convenient it will be - to compare government ministerial postions to that of corporate chiefs insofar as ministerial and civil service remunerations are to be appropriately benchmarked, but not in the manner that accountability and responsibility are to be accepted ?
This must be some very intelligent and scrupulous manner in selectively taking the ''best and rejecting those that are burdensome''.
Are you defending such an approach in using tax payers money without the obligatory accountability and responsibility ?
In most corporation, the CEO, his Management Team and the Board of Directors are responsible and accountable to the Shareholders.
If Singapore Inc is runned as such - with all the inherent features of a MNC - why should the Elitist Leadership not be held responsible and accountable to the Singaporean Citizens, who are the actual shareholders of Singapore Inc. ?
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Originally posted by Point_blank:
Rhonda, is this the kind of society we want, whereby the top man resigns or be censured, for mistakes not of his own?
Hasn't our society been the kind that 'if it was my mistake, i accept full responsibility, but hell if i am gonna take the rapt for someone's else mistake!'?
What other nations do is their wish, and what we do is ours. We need not 'ape' anyone just to look good. We want pragmatic solutions, not theatre acts where real lives are concerned.
If you feel DPM Wong is to take the blame for the officers who had been negligent, then with equal measure, shouldn't DPM Wong take all credit for the safety and security, and low crime rate here in Singapore we had enjoyed during his tenure? And you want his head for mistakes made by others, operator fault and not systemic, in this single episode of Mas's escape?
Hadn't a remorseful and contrite DPM Wong give a full public apology, even when it was not his fault, but for his department, to all in print and the media? Are you still human? And how many actually want his head? Must a fully functioning society bow before the irrational minority asking for a side-show?
During the Election 2006 - James Gomez bungling nomination papers saga - he did also gave his apology in a very public manner to the Staff at the Election Office and to the general public.
Did MM LKY accepted the humility of James Gomez with his apologies and actions taken to make amends towards the Election Office ?
Surprisingly, MM LKY led hsi MIW Team in driving the screws deeper to get a reaction from the WP Leadership - despite the fact that WP Low Thia Kiang had proposed that what needs to be done had been done and ''Let's move on.."
Yet, a dissatified MM LKY will not allow matters to rest and further questioned how the WP leaders could call for everyone to ''Let's move on'' when he believed that the erroneous statements made by James Gomez surrounding the missing papers had implied the Election Office to be inefficient and the Staff being dishonest.
There was no room in MM LKY's intelligence for honest human error - and his skill at extending a superficial injury into a deeper self-inflicted wound based on his art of extreme exageration never fail him in his skills to extract maximum mileage from the mistake of a political opponent.
He insisted on the WP Leadership to do more then just an apology from James Gomez.
By his own standards, should we not expect an even higher standard from his Elitist Group of Super-Human Talents - the 'creme de la creme' from what little talent that Singapore has ?
MM LKY had once lamented the lack of personal responsibility from the local culture compared to the Japanese, when the Top Leader of its Corporate World will accept FULL and UNMITIGATED responsibility for the mistakes made by the upper, middle or lower rank staff of the corporation that he head.
Such a culture is also part of the Japanese character in its Political Establishment, in which we have time and again observed the changes in the Political Leadership of political parties, as well as Ministeries.
Why will MM LKY expect Singaporeans to consider following such high standards of principles from the Japanese, but will not follow suit in his own standards or that of his own MIW Super Talent Team ?
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Every CEO should just get paid millions of dollars in salary just sitting in his office doing nothing except surfing sgforums.
After all if the CEO does nothing, he can do no wrong.
Just claim that he didn't know his surbordinates will screw up so badly and fire them when the shiit hits the fan.
Definitely not the CEO's fault if he has lousy employees.
Really.
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To shade 343: 'world class' does not mean 'perfect class'
Comparing what slimey James Gomez had done with DPM Wong's work for the nation? Ridiculous!
Japan? With it's revolving door policy of appointment holders? Who's really in charge there? At least they have 127 million people to play musical chairs. How many do we have or shall we call invite foreign talents as office holders, both in the corporate and public service. Is this what you guys want?
I will not stop your ventilatings. I have not the power nor the will.By all means, let it out. Express your will in the next election. May you all know what kind of society you will be asking or supporting for, if not for yourselves, at least for the next generations.
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toilet cleaner never clean the toilet.. cleaning company's CEO step down..? no link..
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+1 HUM for WKS
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Originally posted by Point_blank:
To shade 343: 'world class' does not mean 'perfect class'
Comparing what slimey James Gomez had done with DPM Wong's work for the nation? Ridiculous!
Japan? With it's revolving door policy of appointment holders? Who's really in charge there? At least they have 127 million people to play musical chairs. How many do we have or shall we call invite foreign talents as office holders, both in the corporate and public service. Is this what you guys want?
I will not stop your ventilatings. I have not the power nor the will.By all means, let it out. Express your will in the next election. May you all know what kind of society you will be asking or supporting for, if not for yourselves, at least for the next generations.
Yes, for the simple slimey papers that went missing by James Gomez account, MM LKY wanted to cruxify the WP Leadership.
Yes, DPM Wong's great work for the nation had allowed a known Class ONE Terrorist to escape from under DPM Wong's watch at the Home Affairs Ministry.
Is it not amazing that the valued judgment for the God Father of Singapore Politics will place great importance of accountability for the missing papers see to be more damaging to the nation's repurtation that require the WP Leadership to be held accountable collectively; while a different set of measure is to be used for the Class ONE Elite Talents in the MIW World Class Ministers not to be held collectively responsible for the escape of a Class ONE Terrorist ?
With such a view held, is there any need for you to ventilate yourself any further ?
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Originally posted by purpledragon84:
toilet cleaner never clean the toilet.. cleaning company's CEO step down..? no link..
Is DPM WKS the CEO of Singapore Inc ?
Or is he only the manager or supervisor - who is in charge of the Department called Ministry of Home Affairs ?
We normally will sack the most immediate manager and the supervisor for the poor performance of the Deparment.
For more serious breaches in failure of the toilet cleaner, that affects the image of the entire Company, the Department Head will roll with his team of managers and supervisors directly or indirectly linked to the disaster.
In this case, the buck stops at the Superintendent of the Detention Centre, and those lower ranks directly involved with MSK on the day of his escape.
Was the Head of the ISD not responsible in ensuring that the WRDC security was properly reviewed ?
Was Minister WKS not responsible to ensure that timely and periodical reviews are made to the security of all the installations under its purview, and sufficient budget allocations are made to ensure shortfalls do not result in security breaches ?
We have not heard the full side of the testimony from the unfortunate Superintendent of the WRDC - if he had made any earlier reports on the shortfalls at the Detention Centre, and if request for budget allocation has been made ?
What is heard has always been the one sided information that always have placed the MIW Government in the correct perspective, with no wrong doings ?
No one can be lucky to hit jackpot all the time and not lose once, only this MIW has been successful with all issues classified as SECRET over the last 50 years of continuous rule.
Even UK and the USA allow governmental documents to be released for public scrutiny after a period of between twenty to thirty years, so as to avoid similar mistakes to be repeated.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Yes, for the simple slimey papers that went missing by James Gomez account, MM LKY wanted to cruxify the WP Leadership.
Yes, DPM Wong's great work for the nation had allowed a known Class ONE Terrorist to escape from under DPM Wong's watch at the Home Affairs Ministry.
Is it not amazing that the valued judgment for the God Father of Singapore Politics will place great importance of accountability for the missing papers see to be more damaging to the nation's repurtation that require the WP Leadership to be held accountable collectively; while a different set of measure is to be used for the Class ONE Elite Talents in the MIW World Class Ministers not to be held collectively responsible for the escape of a Class ONE Terrorist ?
With such a view held, is there any need for you to ventilate yourself any further ?
'class one terrorist'? Are you deluded that there is a difference and category to terrorists?.
He was in detention for interrogation and rehabilition for a dangerous and lethal crime to mass humanity he wanted to commit. If he is class one, then what is Osama, who had personally admitted to killing thousands and ordered more? A god?
With your form of exageration to fan the flames, i need more than ventilation - a gas mask to keep out your odious hot air.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Is DPM WKS the CEO of Singapore Inc ?
Or is he only the manager or supervisor - who is in charge of the Department called Ministry of Home Affairs ?
We normally will sack the most immediate manager and the supervisor for the poor performance of the Deparment.
For more serious breaches in failure of the toilet cleaner, that affects the image of the entire Company, the Department Head will roll with his team of managers and supervisors directly or indirectly linked to the disaster.
In this case, the buck stops at the Superintendent of the Detention Centre, and those lower ranks directly involved with MSK on the day of his escape.
Was the Head of the ISD not responsible in ensuring that the WRDC security was properly reviewed ?
Was Minister WKS not responsible to ensure that timely and periodical reviews are made to the security of all the installations under its purview, and sufficient budget allocations are made to ensure shortfalls do not result in security breaches ?
We have not heard the full side of the testimony from the unfortunate Superintendent of the WRDC - if he had made any earlier reports on the shortfalls at the Detention Centre, and if request for budget allocation has been made ?
What is heard has always been the one sided information that always have placed the MIW Government in the correct perspective, with no wrong doings ?
No one can be lucky to hit jackpot all the time and not lose once, only this MIW has been successful with all issues classified as SECRET over the last 50 years of continuous rule.
Even UK and the USA allow governmental documents to be released for public scrutiny after a period of between twenty to thirty years, so as to avoid similar mistakes to be repeated.
Are you disputing the findings of the independent committee headed by persons of high integrity and regard?
If so, why don't you challenge their findings yourself in a court of law, when even our MPS are already satisfied with the answers. Or are you preaching rebellion based on wild allegations you throw here?
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Originally posted by purpledragon84:
toilet cleaner never clean the toilet.. cleaning company's CEO step down..? no link..
The CEO has to ensure that the toilets are being cleaned via clear instructions to the supervisors.
He should come down to the toilets and inspect them once in a while to see that the supervisors and the toilet cleaners are indeed doing their jobs.
If he is busy with other more important matters, he should send his officers to do routine checks and report to him on a consistent basis on the status of the toilets. This way, he has a good picture on what is happening in all the toilets he is in charge of and can plan on improvements or note any problems that the supervisors and cleaners are facing on a daily basis. As CEO of the company, he is in charge of everything.
Yes.
Everything.
Not just some things.
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If a minister screws up and there is no action taken against him, other future ministers may become slack and take things for granted.
This is a very dangerous mindset.
He may think, Mas Salamat escape, Mr Wong also come to no harm, so I can slack as well.
Is this good for Singapore point_blank?
You want to defend PAP regime, also must be reasonable lah.
PAP regime kill your mother, you also defend them?
I despise Lee Kuan Yew but I still rate him 60% good 40% bad.
I am not blindly against him.
Use your blain, use your blain, use your blain.
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anyone knows catherine lim's number???? she looks good, ha ha, anyway why come here to singapore (i think she is from malaysia) if she feels like this abt the political scene here leh???
admit it, some are sour here just because the ministers r paid highest here but i think they deserve it by the results shown. coming from a tiny dot, how much capable pple can we find here, of that leadership calibre?? pay peanuts, u get monkeys ehh!! better to get these pple to be in public service rather than in pte sectors...
where do u draw the line?? those responsible directly for the his escape has to be responsible. doesnt matter if they r little pple (in catherine' words) or the in charge of the detention ctr. But i dont think WKS is directly responsible for the running of DC security, nor the head of ISA. .... in this case the one appointing WKS as home minister has to resign too as he is in the line too, isnt it.
coming from a small dot, already have problems with pple talents willing to take leadership roles with no personal agenda, we shd not lose sight of the real issues at hand, terroism, inflation, economy slowdown, epidemics, or even global warming ...we should move on and show solidarity..........
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wow, you really taken in by PAP propaganda.
coming from a small dot, already have problems with pple talents willing to take leadership roles with no personal agenda
That is due to PAP political repression and the depoliticising of Singapore society.
See:
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
wow, you really taken in by PAP propaganda.
That is due to PAP political repression and the depoliticising of Singapore society.
See:
The 2nd film was extremely insightful.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
If a minister screws up and there is no action taken against him, other future ministers may become slack and take things for granted.
This is a very dangerous mindset.
He may think, Mas Salamat escape, Mr Wong also come to no harm, so I can slack as well.
Is this good for Singapore point_blank?
You want to defend PAP regime, also must be reasonable lah.
PAP regime kill your mother, you also defend them?
I despise Lee Kuan Yew but I still rate him 60% good 40% bad.
I am not blindly against him.
Use your blain, use your blain, use your blain.
Ah Pak,'If a minister screws up and there is no action taken against him, other future ministers may become slack and take things for granted.
This is a very dangerous mindset.
He may think, Mas Salamat escape, Mr Wong also come to no harm, so I can slack as well.',
i agree, so in this Mas case, DPM wu screw up boh? or are the operators at fault?
Did PAP regime kill my mother? wu boh? things can anyhow eat, but words don't anyhow say, ok? If i got, i sure boh pang sowt one, but boh leh, PAP bo kill anyone leh, tolok wu?
DPM boh salah, only kar kia salah, he said sorry to nation leow, wrong doers punished, pai seh, kor boh kow ah? Chiang who kwei chi
(translated:- DPM not at fault, but the operators who failed to followed instructions and orders, he apologised to nation already, wrong doers punished, sorry, still not enough? Rule of society)
Ah Pak, le now salah ah? shiow why ker ah? Relax lah, ban ban shiow, kwah wha wo kong giam boh.
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DPM wu screw up boh? or are the operators at fault?
That is not the issue.
Mr Wong is in charge of internal security.
There was a cock up with internal security which is under the charge of Mr Wong.
As a public official, he should take responsibility and resign.
If he doesn't resign, people will despise and be resentful towards government as a whole.
Why our PAP regime so special?
Pay highest in the world, cock up don't resign.
Why are they so special?
I see no reason.
Can you give me the reason why PAP regime must be special point_blank?
Highest pay in world and yet cock up no resign.
Why like that?