Speak honestly but don't be insulting & partisan.This is what i appeal to all members here.
Is there anyone who doesn't mind to be insulted?
This is an impossible request because of the nature of this internet forum. Don't be naive and if you consider naiveity to be some kind of virtue than don't expect anything worthwhile from any discussion premised on that naiveity except a bunch of froth. Come to think of it, it's all been froth anyway so whatever.
Frak,
Which part of my call is impossible?
Tell that to Gazelle and his abundance of clones.
Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:This is an impossible request because of the nature of this internet forum. Don't be naive and if you consider naiveity to be some kind of virtue than don't expect anything worthwhile from any discussion premised on that naiveity except a bunch of froth. Come to think of it, it's all been froth anyway so whatever.
it has nothing to do with the nature of the forum. it can be achieve if we were to exercise a bit of self refrain.
don't you think to be able to convince others with our reasoning rather than with insults is already a worthwhile challenge?
though we may see a lot of froth now this is inevitable as we have just started on such public discussions. as we progress our arguments will become more substantial and convincing.
Thank you, Lotus999.
I believe one can't be impartial when one's selfish interest, esp. money,is involved,So when u see those fiercely 'flaming' msg in the internet, they are probably due to selfish interest..
Originally posted by PRP:Speak honestly but don't be insulting & partisan.This is what i appeal to all members here.
PRP, i stand by ur call.
Foxtrout8,
It would be great if more ppl like you.
I wish there is no insults traded between parties as well.
Whether u believe in opposition or believe in Gov, it is their opinion and we should respect them.
PRP
While I agree with your call for civility and self-restraints. I would prefer a similar advice to people to be courageous enough to stand up as defenders of truths and justice ceaselessly speaking their minds honestly against any form of wrong doings or evil in our society for ulitimately it is the presence of such honest citizens who are prepared to defend our rights and justice that we can hope to have good government and good lives.
Very often we see such fearless citizens with independent views being the targets of attack or oppressions by all sorts of propagandas, fear tactics and name calling.
So I think your advice calling on some here to practise self-restraints should be applied to whole society from the top down and not just directed to some who are careless in choice of words or manner in criticizing wrongful government policies or conduct in governing the country.
Which is the bigger problem? Top people or the bottom rung?
Will the top stop their vile propagandas to depoliticise the people so as to get their way all the time?
Must the hoipolloi be tied with ropes to stop them from speaking up or criticizing wrongful acts of the government?.
Speaking up against the gov is in a way, right. It encourages discussion and a greater understanding is reached. However does name calling and insults have to be in the picture ? Tis brought about heightened emotions, resulting in flame threads and people r pushed into more extreme stand. Tis is counter productive. Unless u prefer to have a mindless mob whose thinking can be controlled easily ?
Almost everybody here r defenders of the truth, it is just tat "truth" is subjective.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Speaking up against the gov is in a way, right. It encourages discussion and a greater understanding is reached. However does name calling and insults have to be in the picture ? Tis brought about heightened emotions, resulting in flame threads and people r pushed into more extreme stand. Tis is counter productive. Unless u prefer to have a mindless mob whose thinking can be controlled easily ?
Almost everybody here r defenders of the truth, it is just tat "truth" is subjective.
Against media-controlled propaganda machinery of such a scale, all news and information are filtered and controlled until the general population has become apathetic to political discussions and believe in hypocrisies of self-serving leaders.
How do citizens exercise their free expressions under such circumstance if they are to be advised to shut up or speak only within the tee box.
that is the problem with the forum isn't it?
If you exercise your freedom of expression and say you support some of the measures that the government takes you are told here to shut up, given all sort of names and immediately assigned to the same camp as Deerhunter and the likes. Or simply told you've been brainwashed by the government to be unable to think for yourself.
I dislike how Deerhunter always like to drown the other side of the argument with endless quotes and name calling but still i agree and like some of the alternate arguments he can come up with.
Just the same as i often like to read Atobe's arguments but react with disgust with how he's resorting to the sarcastic mud flinging fests with stupidissmart.
Thhe forumites here need to realise freedom of expressions also means we can agree with the government as well as well as disagree with the government measures. Most of us are adults, we should then know there is more than one way of looking at a stituation.
Finally, this is one of the few sensible thread.
while people are enjoying the freedom of expressions to speak against the PAP, the government and even Singapore, please allow people to speak for the PAP, the government, for Singapore.
There is no clone here. Each has his own idea and opinion. Respect that.
Originally posted by robertteh:Against media-controlled propaganda machinery of such a scale, all news and information are filtered and controlled until the general population has become apathetic to political discussions and believe in hypocrisies of self-serving leaders.
How do citizens exercise their free expressions under such circumstance if they are to be advised to shut up or speak only within the tee box.
In this age, it is hard to believe that anybody can be influenced by any one and only one propaganda machinery. as you sit and type here, you can surf the net and search for all kinds of news and ideas. If those influence you, why should you think others are not influenced ?
Please do not go with the idea that those who support the government are brainwashed, controlled, and they are unable to think. This is an insult to Singaporean.
Many singaporeans may appear to be apathetic to politics, but is it because there is something to fear? they are unable to think? or is it because often than not, there is no alternative! In the end, there can be no perfect solution, while some policies benefit the majority, some segment of the population may feel neglected, some may have to do some sacrifice...it is when the majority are benefitted, that the majority would be prepared to vote for them.
Citizens have to know how freedom of expression and democracy can benefit them.
The OB markers are the white stick usually far away from the tee box, if you can't get the ball off the tee box, it is because you have too many air shot. Nobody give you advice on tee box, only at the driving range.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Quoted from Voltaire
I'm willing to do it for you, all i'm asking is that you do the same for me.
It's akin of asking for "World Peace". May be possible, but darn hard.
Meh, i'm no idealist. I don't expect everyone to conform to my way of thinking immediately but the way i see it, as long as i convince more than one person in my lifetime then it's not wasted.
Originally posted by RedizAlertz:It's akin of asking for "World Peace". May be possible, but darn hard.
When a topic is debated,there is no 'peace' yet.But we should debate in civil manner.If u insult someone,he would likely to return in kind.Then quarreling instead of debating takes place.
Against media-controlled propaganda machinery of such a scale, all news and information are filtered and controlled until the general population has become apathetic to political discussions and believe in hypocrisies of self-serving leaders.
How do citizens exercise their free expressions under such circumstance if they are to be advised to shut up or speak only within the tee box.
Actually I don't understand how your answer fit into the thread.. tis is asking people to be civilised when discussing in forums. Nobody ask people to shut up or keep quiet... Express your ideas ! Say wat u wanna say. Let it out of your chest. But play it nice and keep the insults out.
Just the same as i often like to read Atobe's arguments but react with disgust with how he's resorting to the sarcastic mud flinging fests with stupidissmart.
U know stevenson101... I am very happy when i read tis reply... Thank you... i really mean it...
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Actually I don't understand how your answer fit into the thread.. tis is asking people to be civilised when discussing in forums. Nobody ask people to shut up or keep quiet... Express your ideas ! Say wat u wanna say. Let it out of your chest. But play it nice and keep the insults out.
U know stevenson101... I am very happy when i read tis reply... Thank you... i really mean it...
but your exchanges with Atobe is getting longer and longerer. I respect your patience.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:Finally, this is one of the few sensible thread.
while people are enjoying the freedom of expressions to speak against the PAP, the government and even Singapore, please allow people to speak for the PAP, the government, for Singapore.
There is no clone here. Each has his own idea and opinion. Respect that.
PAP and PAP government have absolutely no problem with exercising their own freedoms of the same order we are discussing.Being the government it is its duty to answer to any complaints or feedbacks to serve the citizens.
In fact they can the civil defamation laws as the trump cards to sue anyone whom they regard as threats even on people as civic as Mr. Brown. Administratively they have even greater power to deal with critics like dismissing or transferring civil servants speaking out of line or not seen as acting in concert with their own interest.
They would sue anyone in their own appointed courts for even the slightest innuendos as happened in Tang Liang Hong case with civil laws narrowly interpreted as libellous for remarks made against them even in the course of electioneering without giving their oppositions defence such as fair comment or public interest.
It is therefore quite incorrect your underlying assumption that government is entitled to same freedoms of speech or replies as done by critics of government.
The plain fact is the PAP and PAP government has been enjoying one-sided freedom of expression for too long it cannot now accept critics' views and must try new way and means to target the critics even against Mr. Brown who is just a citizen with views concerning governing of the country.
The real issue here today is whether PAP and PAP government should be more equal than equal while all are supposed to be equal in the manner of speech.
So weighing both the freedoms of speech or expressions on both sides there is no need to be so overly concerned that when critics speak up there must be opportunities for PAP and PAP government to rebut or reply.
If MM Lee does not use such defamation suits so often against his political opponents will we today be running out of political leaders of calibre?
For every good and bad policy there is always a price to pay. If we want to practise a "no free lunch" system of government, we may end up having a greedy money-grabbing government on the other side of the equation.
It is quite wrong for the government to control the media or pass draconian laws just for their own purposes without looking at the other side of the equation what we stand to lose.
It does not make sense that we allow a one-sided policy like "no free lunch" or "meritocracy" to dominate our political system for so long and today we as a people are suffering from naivety of accepting such propaganda.
It is the duty of all citizens to speak the truths against wrongfulness of government without fear or favor in whatever forums or occasions to put us back on proper path of growth and vibrancy as Hong Kong people are now enjoying.
Just look at Deerhunter. He obviously has been sent here (not of his own natural volition) to slam at citizens' views and opinions with vulgarities and name callings.
Is the Freedom of Speech balanced with complete control of PAP and PAP government of the public media leaving the internet now as the only available free venues to express their views and opinions ?
Is there a justification for ministers to send cyber-agents to come to slam people using hidden unequal selfish political power and probably using publicly paid servants to do so.
Right before you are about to start having sex, stab her, then proceed to pound the wound with your cock.
Isn't the forum here already very open and people voice out watever they wanna say without fear ? I thought the opposition always wanna have a discussion, or a face to face debate over the television over policies made in singapore ? Suddenly, it seems to me tat they wanna act like the gov, want to have a one sided media and want to promote censorship. U just want to have a propaganda machine or u want to have a real discussion ?
I personally do not care if the person I am debating is an agent, or a opposition party member, or even LKY or george bush. In here, whoever u r is not important. The important things is the facts and points u wanna bring out. Everyone is equal. Tis is the real "liberal" media.
If tis cyber agent is pointless and insulting, he will be counter productive and the cyber agents actually make PAP look worse. If tis cyber agent make sense, then why care if he is a cyber agent or not ? We wanted to be closer to truth, not to be mindless emotional mob. Tis makes me wonder if the opposition comes into power, will they do exactly the same thing as the current gov in controlling the media.
Not anybody who talk for the gov is a cyber agent. I can tell u proudly I get nothing coming over here to write all these replies. If u think deerhunter should not go about scolding vulgarities and name calling, then tat is precisely the reason why we push tis thread to prevent people from spourting vulgarities and name calling here. But all tis while u seemed to be supportive of people to speak vulgarities and name calling.