1,000 Singaporeans gave up their citizenship every year
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This articl seem to indicate the no of people migrating to other countries.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20080825-84202.html
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Originally posted by klokey:
Hi everyone,
I have heard all the replies to Dimitri the Wanderer and it seems that most Singaporeans are doubtful that he is earning that much money a month. As a fellow Singapore working in Bristol for an Aerospace Manufacturer for almost 3 years, I feel that I could shed some light on this subject.
According to Dimitri, he claims to have earn quite a lot of money in a single year. I suspect this consist of his salary as well as bonuses combined. It's very expensive living in London so most of the city workers tend to have very high salaries. Although I am just an engineer working in the UK, my classmates have all left engineering to work in banks in london. The starting salary for fresh graduates out of University in the UK working in London for a bank is about S$150K to S$180K a year excluding bonuses. I hope this figure gives you an idea of how things are in the UK.
As an engineer myself, I would just say that it's difficult for me to return to Singapore to work one day. After working just 3 years since leaving Uni, I am getting a five figure salary a month and much higher than what a normal engineer is getting in Singapore. It is no surprise now why there are no more engineers left in Singapore and I can't see why a Singaporean studying overseas will want to return to Singapore to work for less money. Competition is fierce in the UK for skilled people and the companies in UK are mostly MNC which compete for international contracts and businesses. So it really boils down to nature of the business and the market that you are satisfying.
Danny from Bristol
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
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Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Right now China is still the coolie of the world. They are still providing cheap labour. It is hard to see how they will own the world, as coolies.
Its obvious you know nuts apart from what you see. Just like those people who keep putting down bangla's. Do more research on China russia and the states. Find out about oil in south africa. China's economy is 2nd largest in the world
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
I dun agree with your computation, but I absolutely agree with your argument.
There is no place like home (cliche).
It may be a better deal to go and work overseas on an expat's package. That way, it's double the pay, and 50% less the risk (coz company shd take care of ur welfare.. somewhat) & come back home with higher value in CV and to company.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
These kind of stuff keep to yourself. There will always be someone who thinks you are wrong and they right.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
Whoa ! An engineer working in Singapore earns 6k after 3 years?
How many Singaporeans live 99 years in their flats? BTW, It's a 99-year lease. Nobody owns a flat.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
how u get $6000 for engineer in singapore one.... Frm experience, i tot its arnd 3k....
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Originally posted by will4:
This articl seem to indicate the no of people migrating to other countries.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20080825-84202.html
Maybe, maybe not... does all countries need the cert to get PR? but it does shows more ppl are getting PRs from other countries..
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Li Jiawei is considering going back to Beijing next year....kekekekeke
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Originally posted by whiskers:
how u get $6000 for engineer in singapore one.... Frm experience, i tot its arnd 3k....
If we compare engineers working in the bank, then it is 4k a month as starting pay. So if include bonus, 6k still looks possible after 3 years for an engineer in banking.
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Hi there,
Just to respond to my earlier email. Engineers don't get as much as those in finance, law or any of the city workers in London. In fact most engineers are based outside London because our salary isn't high enough to warrant a lavish lifestyle, especially in London. That is why most grads from engineering courses tend to switch to finance because it pays better than engineering companies.
I know there are some doubts over the fact that most aerospace engineers get a five figure salary a month and I shall explain in detail no worries. Most of us engineers in UK, regardless of where you come from originally, as long as you are qualified can work as a contractor (minimum 3-5 years working experience). The hourly rate for a contractor is between 25 pounds to 40 pounds an hour depending on your contract. You can check the internet for the rates of aerospace designers and engineers. Given the major shortage of engineers in UK, all engineers tend to be on contracting until they are about 50 where either they retire or take up a high post such as a Chief Engineer.
On average, most engineers work an average of 50 hours a week which works out to £5,625 a month based on £25/hour (minimum). As a contractor, we pay no tax until April every year. We have accountants who manage our salaries and invest the excess into equities. The accountants do not declare the full extent of our salaries so engineers do not pay the 40% tax on our yearly income. In fact, contracting is like owning your own business where the money comes in and gets redistributed in your office (home). By the time you declare your salary for taxation, instead of £67,500 a year salary, you only declare £18,000 because the money was shown to be reinvested in your car, expenses at home and company savings. The taxation on a £18K salary is also about 25% which is still high no doubt. I hope this gives a better idea of how engineers operate in Europe.
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xtreyier,
You are right in saying that the living expenses in the UK can be quite high. With all due respect, I have to disagree the list of expenses that you quoted in your reply.
I suspect that you a quoting a rental of a flat in London not Bristol. Rental of a flat in Bristol is S$1500 a month and $2500 for a 4 bedroom house. However I wouldn't recommend renting because in the UK, it was possible to get a mortgage for just a 3% deposit on a house. It's 10% deposit now given the impact the credit crunch that affected markets worldwide. In the UK, I feel that it would be appropriate to buy a property as well since the mortgage repayments tend to be equivalent to monthly rentals.
Similarly, I have to say that I am living quite a frugal lifestyle in UK. There is no need to spend excessive money if you appreciate the simple things in life. I would feel that once again the numbers you have quoted apply more for someone who lives in London than outside London. But then again, if you get paid ridiculous money especially in Investment Banking in London, there is nothing wrong using your bonus to pay for a ferrari in cash.
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Originally posted by klokey:
xtreyier,
You are right in saying that the living expenses in the UK can be quite high. With all due respect, I have to disagree the list of expenses that you quoted in your reply.
I suspect that you a quoting a rental of a flat in London not Bristol. Rental of a flat in Bristol is S$1500 a month and $2500 for a 4 bedroom house. However I wouldn't recommend renting because in the UK, it was possible to get a mortgage for just a 3% deposit on a house. It's 10% deposit now given the impact the credit crunch that affected markets worldwide. In the UK, I feel that it would be appropriate to buy a property as well since the mortgage repayments tend to be equivalent to monthly rentals.
Similarly, I have to say that I am living quite a frugal lifestyle in UK. There is no need to spend excessive money if you appreciate the simple things in life. I would feel that once again the numbers you have quoted apply more for someone who lives in London than outside London. But then again, if you get paid ridiculous money especially in Investment Banking in London, there is nothing wrong using your bonus to pay for a ferrari in cash.
I think we can also see that his calculations are a little biased.
Gives you 1000 a month to spend on food in UK (roughly 33 pounds a day) compared to spending only 500 a month in Singapore (roughly 17 SGD a day). Must you be eating steaks very frequently?
My experience in Germany taught me one thing: if you follow the eating habits of a normal local worker, you don't spend that much actually. In Rome, you do as Romans do; do otherwise and you pay more for it.
However, Singapore is not without its merits. Just because engineering jobs have little future in Singapore (at least to me) doesn't mean we can't explore alternatives.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Just because engineering jobs have little future in Singapore (at least to me) doesn't mean we can't explore alternatives.
u shld give it(engineering) more time....i have a colleague, first class honors as well, double e, nus; after a couple of job change, now doing forecasting job in my company. a real bright guy.i have always thot that it is absolute talent wasted. i am a lesser being compared to him in terms of his academic and brain prowess, but contributing more.
he shld have persevered....
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Originally posted by redDUST:
u shld give it(engineering) more time....i have a colleague, first class honors as well, double e, nus; after a couple of job change, now doing forecasting job in my company. a real bright guy.i have always thot that it is absolute talent wasted. i am a lesser being compared to him in terms of his academic and brain prowess, but contributing more.
he shld have persevered....
There's little point giving engineering much more time in SG; we are very easily replaced by getting cheaper foreigners over, given our close proximity with China and India. There's little complaints because it is a rational thing for companies to do so.
And although govt jobs give higher remuneration for engineering jobs currently as compared to the private sector, it's still insufficient.
Being me, I'm exploring alternatives currently, and I'm making sure that such an alternative is harder for foreigners to come compete because Singaporeans will have a slight advantage. The remuneration could easily be higher than what an engineer with first class honours would earn just by doing it part-time.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
That is why I am in Australia. I contribute and pay taxes to a country which has given me alot of opportunities, scholarships and a better lifestyle.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Wow! 5 figure salary! $150,000. UK! in Financial Mgt. Would engineering be the same, although you didnt say so, still 5 figures as you claimed?
But hang on a second! Let's work some figures.
$150,000 less 23% tax would be $115,500 balanced, or $9,625/mth.
Rental of one bedroom flat( don't even think to buy one! Beyond most working class reach!) = est $5,000
Less Municipal tax ( property tax) = est $ 500
Food ( steaks cost a bomb) = est $1,000
Sub total = est $6,500
Balance of salary = est $3,125/mth
Car, petrol, parking, electricity = ????
Without car, electricity, entertainment costs, you are already down to $3,125.
Let's compare a Spore engineer here - $6,000/mth
Tax 8.5% = balance of $65,880 or $5,490/mth
HDB 5 rm flat =$1,000/mth and ( own the flat for 99years)
Town council = $ 120
Food =$ 500
Sub total =$1,620
Balance of salary=$3,870/mth
The Spore engineer may earn lesser, but at the end of day, who is better off and have more money in the pocket? You claim to be an engineer, I dont wish to doubt you, but have you work your figures properly???
And to rub it in, paying taxes and contributing to UK as a PR is better than contributing to our society, who had offered you the opportunity since birth to excel?
Greetings, from Singapore.
xtreyier
1) Your tax rates are wrong!
2) UK = Steaks; Singapore = economical rice. Try comparing steaks for steaks.
3) Your rental rates for UK is wrong!
4) Also consider the other benefits like free healthcare.
5) Your salary for both countries are wrong, based on comparison with newly qualified accountants, UK is about 4.4 times that of Singapore.
An extremely bias comparison.
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Digress...
Saddest news today.... Prof Ooi Ban Leong passed away on Tues due to traffic accident...
He was my tutor for 2 modules, and had greatly assisted me in one of my project modules :(
A happy and smiling man always, he's only 41 yrs old.... Sigh...
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
1) Your tax rates are wrong!
2) UK = Steaks; Singapore = economical rice. Try comparing steaks for steaks.
3) Your rental rates for UK is wrong!
4) Also consider the other benefits like free healthcare.
5) Your salary for both countries are wrong, based on comparison with newly qualified accountants, UK is about 4.4 times that of Singapore.
An extremely bias comparison.
I say you are wrong too.
PS: There! I said it too. No need for clarification. Simple one liners are cheap. I too can write it.
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M13, copy your Aussie calculations last time?
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While the government throws away our hard earned money into frivolous acquisition of over-priced companies overseas. The commoners are left with having to pay the price with high levels of inflation, taxes, fees, charges and fines.
Ever wonder why our wages are so depressed, while citizens from other equivalent GDP per capita economies (e.g. Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, etc) can better afford holidays overseas. Their average wages are at least 3-5 times of Singaporeans (e.g. waiters and retail assistant makes AUD 15 to AUD 25 per hour). Singaporeans can only contend with 3rd world standard of living in the future, given the government's policy on letting in more 3rd world workers to push down wages.
The explanation for low wages given by P4P was global competition, seems like competition only applies to Singapore ONLY. But not to countries such as Australia or New Zealand.
P4P lackeys here complain that some of these countries like Australia, New Zealand, etc have high tax structure. But given their wages, they still make more than the average Singaporeans and could afford more despite their high tax structure. Notwithstanding that they do not need to pay for healthcare and basic education.
***This comparison is based only on the after tax spending power of low wage earners of both countries. I do not think that we need to compare the after tax spending power of high income earners, because they are still extremely well off after taxes.***
Singapore:
Income per year: SG$12,000
Income Taxes: 0%
GST: 7%
Spending Power After GST: SG$11,160 [SG$12,000 x 93%]
Australia:
(waiter or retail staff based on 3 times earnings of Singaporean only, not 5 times which is the higher bound)
Income per year: AU$36,000
Income Taxes: up to AU$6,000 = AU$0; AU$6,001 to AU$25,000 = AU$2,850; AU$25,001 to AU$36,000 = AU$3,300
Australia Personal Tax Rates
Total Income Taxes: AU$6,150 [AU$ 0 + AU$ 2,850 + AU$ 3,300]
Income after Income Taxes: AU$29,850
GST: 10%
Spending Power After GST: AU$26,865 [AU$29,850 x 90%]
An average waiter in Australia will have a spending power of AU$26,865, while a Singaporeans waiter will have only SG$11,160. Why do you think when we go for holidays overseas, we can afford less than an equivalent GDP per capita country like Australia or New Zealand.
You do the maths and tell me who is actually better off after personal taxes and GST.
Singaporeans or Australians???
Though Australia might have a higher personal tax structure, but their average wages are 3 to 5 times of Singaporeans. Even after deducting high taxes and GST, they still do end up with more money in the pocket than an average Singaporean. Moreover, they have no need to pay for healthcare and basic education.
Australian Wages
Bartending/waiting tables: $15 - $25 per hour (casual)
Chef: $700 - $800 per week (full time)
Retail sales assistant: $15 - $25 per hour (casual)
Check out operators and cashiers: $500 - $700 per week (full time)
Building/labouring: $650 - $850 per week (full time)
Engineering: $800 - $1500 per week (full time)
Hairdressing: $530 - $650 per week (full time)
Secretarial/administration: $600 - $700 per week (full time)
Child care: $18 - $20 per hour (casual) -
Say this average Singaporean making SG$11,160 (p.a. after taxes) uses all his income to pay for his PUBLIC Housing (99 year leasehold) 2 bedroom HDB of SG$183,000. At mortgage rate of 2.60% (fixed rate), he would need some 21.65 years to pay off his HDB flat. On top of this loan repayment, this Singaporean would still need to pay Property Tax + SG$110 (TV Licence)every year.
http://www.realestate.com.au/
Say if an Australian making AU$26,865 (p.a. after taxes) uses all his income on an equivalent PRIVATE Landed House in Perth for AU$250,000. At a mortgage rate of 8.29% (fixed rate), he would need some 18.53 years to pay off his landed townhouse. An Australian citizen ends up in a 2 storey landed property with less than the number of years repayment, as compared to a Singaporean citizen buying a 2 bedroom HDB flat (99 year leasehold).
Present Amount of Ordinary Annuity Calculator.
!!! Remember this fundamental issue, the salary of workers in Australia (without exchange rate differential) is 3 times that of Singaporean workers !!! -
This comparison done in Dec 2007, so figures might have changed.
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Look M13.
We can go on endless circles as you had gone throughout the years trying to prove that pastures outside of Spore is greener.
There can be no doubts that such perception is true. How can a small little red dot compare with resource and land rich countries like Australia?
How can our humane and equal, often necessary survival type immigration policies be equal to protectionistic rich nations?
The whole issue of losing our people is not about trying to hoodwink them to stay. Rather, it is to show and help them if the pastures outside Spore is indeed greener. At least they can make a better and intelligent informed decision. Comparisons are easy, i can simply put anything up, eg, comparing PM salaries( anyone capable can aspire towards it) or Tokyo housing rates, and disprove your figures immediately, resulting in endless cycle of debates, counter productive and a waste of time.
Abandoning ship is easy. There is no law to restrict it. But should one? More so after our previous generations, grovel like dogs to colonnial masters, forced to work for brutual japs at gunpoint, bullied by race supremacists, had done so much to provide for us all for our today?
No matter who rules, our allegience is to the flag, and each one of us is responsible to make Spore better. And who better then a citizen to initiate and make such changes?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Look M13.
We can go on endless circles as you had gone throughout the years trying to prove that pastures outside of Spore is greener.
There can be no doubts that such perception is true. How can a small little red dot compare with resource and land rich countries like Australia?
How can our humane and equal, often necessary survival type immigration policies be equal to protectionistic rich nations?
The whole issue of losing our people is not about trying to hoodwink them to stay. Rather, it is to show and help them if the pastures outside Spore is indeed greener. At least they can make a better and intelligent informed decision. Comparisons are easy, i can simply put anything up, eg, comparing PM salaries( anyone capable can aspire towards it) or Tokyo housing rates, and disprove your figures immediately, resulting in endless cycle of debates, counter productive and a waste of time.
Abandoning ship is easy. There is no law to restrict it. But should one? More so after our previous generations, grovel like dogs to colonnial masters, forced to work for brutual japs at gunpoint, bullied by race supremacists, had done so much to provide for us all for our today?
No matter who rules, our allegience is to the flag, and each one of us is responsible to make Spore better. And who better then a citizen to initiate and make such changes?
If every Singaporean thinks like you, Singapore will not improve any further than what we are now.
Government can give her people the shittiest housing.. the lousiest health care, the cheapest education, and the crappiest policies....and we the Singaporean will just slurp it all up.. without any complains.
Pledging our allegiance to the Singapore flag.. does not mean we must also give up our soul.