RSS Courageous
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"ASK THEM... WHY WE ' CANT GIVE UP LIGHT HOUSE!!!! "
Originally posted by NDU on 8 January 2003 - 11:56pm
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I hope you are not advocating the 'giving up of the "Rock with the Light House" that we call Preda Branca (and which the Malaysians call Pulau Batu Putih)..?
If you look at the map, this island rock is our window or door into the South-China Sea.
From this island rock to the "mainland" Singapore, it gives us a narrow strip of "additional" territory that we can call our own - even if it is only sea. -
Preda Branca = LIGHT HOUSE.... but normally we will call them Horsburgh Lighthouse!!!Originally posted by Atobe:"ASK THEM... WHY WE ' CANT GIVE UP LIGHT HOUSE!!!! "
Originally posted by NDU on 8 January 2003 - 11:56pm
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I hope you are not advocating the 'giving up of the "Rock with the Light House" that we call Preda Branca (and which the Malaysians call Pulau Batu Putih)..?
If you look at the map, this island rock is our window or door into the South-China Sea.
From this island rock to the "mainland" Singapore, it gives us a narrow strip of "additional" territory that we can call our own - even if it is only sea.
sorry, what i tryin to say was... we WILL NEVER GIVE UP Horsburgh Lighthouse !!! ITS TOO IMPORTANT to us... what you say.... i cant say its wrong... its the WINDOW!!! kekekke for us to SEE mah..... but abt the water... errrr i think no ler... i think normally when we heading towards the Horsburgh Lighthouse.... we will traval on INTERNATIONAL WATER!! thast what i know lah.... not 100% correct... but the water around the lighthouse we WOULD CONSIDER AS SINGAPORE WATER!!
what i tryin to tell him (shortgun) was who actually got the info... ITS 100% NOT PORT CONTROL!! coz, i was at MY so call port control b4... which i myself see and hear!! how they pass the msg to port contro (his so call porty control)l!!! ....... just now i almost type the callsign out!! lucky... i still be able to control!! SO.... JUST WANNA PROOF TO HIM.... HIS PORT CONTROL INFO WAS 'GIVEN' BY SOME OTHERS DEPARTMENT!! SORRIE... I REALLY CANT TELL MUCH.....
just hope he stop posting info which he think is correct!!! and start mislead viewer... coz, if end of the day... news never say anything abt how the port control CAN help in the accident.... viewer might start putting the blame on them!!!
cheers -
Though I'm not expert in Maritime Law. I do understand that every piece of rock extends our national sea boundary and observation area. My arguement has never been that Port Authorities knew the location of the RSS Courageous. NEVER. I am saying that Port Authorities DID NOT know.
What I question is, WHY was a large Cargo ship, brightly lit. Has a RCS of 10 elephants NOT detected by a warship? I believe that the APV was under EMCON, either moving very slowly, or was sitting in the water? I refuse to believe that the APV was patrolling and so unfortunately by some cosmic chaos, even after detecting the ANL Indonesia, decided to cut across in front of the big ship and gets its aft section rammed off.
Neither do I believe in giving that rock away. The rock holds important infrastructure, and plays a vital part in our port operations. And I am offended if anyone thinks that I am for "giving the rock away." I don't believe in giving the Malaysians something which we have operated til today. No I am not smart and I NEVER SAID I WAS. If u get what i mean...
I do not call myself an expert in maritime and naval operations. But given the events and news, I cannot help but believe that the ANL Indonesia was not at fault. And I also cannot accept that our Naval officers would do anything to endanger their crew unecessarily without being ordered to do so. Neither do I want to believe in the crew of the RSS Courageous lacking proffessionalism in performing whatever duties they have on board. Including manning the radar, navigation, or fire control, including the ESM equipment, including the people on watch.
So far I am only here deeming the use of nav radar unlikely, and the ship was under EMCON, AND that the ship was more likely to be stationary.
So MR SMART NDU FROM THE NAVY. And some of the "other" viewers too, WHAT actually happened that lead to this accident? So show me how smart YOU are by explaining to me why the RSS Courageous was in a situation where it did not know what was coming and why it was not able to respond? -
Actually give up or dun give up little difference, we have much less stake in there in then the Malaysians who have invested so much national pride, irrational emotion and political hoo ha into this issue. If we lose it, no big deal, they can have their sampan port. If they lose the case, wah paing, they really lose face man, after all their frenzy this letdown. That's why LKY is smart, tell us all to focus, and ignore their primitive political methods. And prehaps, at the end of the day we will be the last one laffing and going gila while they can only sit on their mainland with their flag and stare with impotent rage and blame everything under the sun except themselves for this, but as usual, people will give them little notice... as Tom Clancy has so nicely put "amok after all, is a malay word."
At that time when they ask what time it is, it's Lion Time! -
Eh NDU, this is not a television programme. So dun call forum users viewer, cos that is not the proper "callsign." Oh by the way, I don't appreciate people messing around with my nick just because they have differences of opinion. It really demonstrates their character. "Viewers" wont put any blame on the Port Authorities, why? Cos if there is any fault, it will be the Navy's.Originally posted by NDU:Preda Branca = LIGHT HOUSE.... but normally we will call them Horsburgh Lighthouse!!!
sorry, what i tryin to say was... we WILL NEVER GIVE UP Horsburgh Lighthouse !!! ITS TOO IMPORTANT to us... what you say.... i cant say its wrong... its the WINDOW!!! kekekke for us to SEE mah..... but abt the water... errrr i think no ler... i think normally when we heading towards the Horsburgh Lighthouse.... we will traval on INTERNATIONAL WATER!! thast what i know lah.... not 100% correct... but the water around the lighthouse we WOULD CONSIDER AS SINGAPORE WATER!!
what i tryin to tell him (shortgun) was who actually got the info... ITS 100% NOT PORT CONTROL!! coz, i was at MY so call port control b4... which i myself see and hear!! how they pass the msg to port contro (his so call porty control)l!!! ....... just now i almost type the callsign out!! lucky... i still be able to control!! SO.... JUST WANNA PROOF TO HIM.... HIS PORT CONTROL INFO WAS 'GIVEN' BY SOME OTHERS DEPARTMENT!! SORRIE... I REALLY CANT TELL MUCH..... just hope he stop posting info which he think is correct!!! and start mislead viewer... coz, if end of the day... news never say anything abt how the port control CAN help in the accident.... viewer might start putting the blame on them!!!
cheers
Oh by the way. The MPA has Vessel Traffic Information systems that can track and GUIDE ships that appear to be on a collision course. However, I'm not saying that they track RSN ships too. -
hello shotgun
I do not know NDU and i agree that his way of putting his point across may be a bit abrasive. However i have to agree with his points. I served onboard one of the APV for a significant period of time and the waters off Pedra Branca are certainly areas for which the RNS is responsible for patrolling. At every single moment throughout the year, one RSN ship(normally a PV of 182 SQN or a APV of 189 SQN) will be out at sea on patrol missions - This information was released in one of the Pioneer articles.
Courageous was on a routine patrol mission
The APV is not stationary but probably rather at a speed of 3 - 4 knots - Most patrol ships do patrol at that speed at some point in the patrol and for all the news report about the traffic density off Pedra Branca, most watchkeeping officers of 182 and 189 will agree with me that off Pedra Branca, the traffic is relatively light once you are out of the maritime traffic separation scheme in operation there. This permit you to operate at a relatively low speed. However once we are in the traffic lanes, we will pick up speed to perform collision avoidance with the commercial vessels. As of now, we do not know the motion status of Courageous(Pennant Number 96). The patrol ships DO NOT receive collision avoidance guidance from the MPA VITS systems. The nav radar is definitely on as per the modus operandi of the mission. No comments about the EW status and I do not think any responsible naval personel will disclosed that in this forum. A possible scenario based on my experience of such missions could be as followed -
96 was off Pedra Branca on routine patrol mission and it could be at a speed ranging from 3 - 24. At the higher speed, the watch will be more vigilant and paradoxically the risk of collision will have been reduced due to the higher state of alert. However 96 could have been in a supposedly quiet area which permit it the luxury of cruising at a slow speed. The collision occurs at 1135pm with the next changing over due at midnight. Being in a quiet area and at the end of the watch, the watchkeepers could be in a more relaxed mood and with it reduced vigilance. They might not spot ANL Indonesia. ANL Indonesia probably had a course which brought them to the eastern extreme of the lane and this might not be detected by the watchkeepers. In short, I believed human negligence was to blame and we should not conjure up extraordinary scenarios to explain such incidents. The OOW, POOW, Radar Plotter of the Watch and the 2x Lookouts all share the blame but the key role rest with the OOW -
It is a tragedy that the 4 servicewomen are dead but I hope that the whole service will not be indicted for their deaths should this be the case of human negligence. This will not be fair to many of my colleagues out there who performed their role with utmost dedication and pride. If the public feels saddened by this tragedy, the impact of it is even greater within a small service such as the navy......in the service everyone knows everyone by names or faces or both.....I knew some of the servicewomen by faces from my time there......the spectre of the tragedy will always be with us. Inspite of what has happened, the task of defending our country goes on and when the news of the accident was relayed, another ship was sent out on patrol so that our waters remained safeguarded and secure.
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Thanks, solaris for shedding some light. You have to understand where my scenario comes from. I simply cannot believe that anybody on board that APV would have lacked the proffesionalism to detect and avoid a cargo ship when they would be entrusted to handle much more in times of war.
It will be hugely embarassing to know that there were so many failures across the operations of a warship that lead to an accident with the loss of 4 lives. If the two lookouts had fallen asleep, or were not paying attention, and the ship was under EMCON, then it will simply be the fault of the two lookouts. What you have said would be across the board failure in safe operations of the ship.
Given the fact that a Malaysian coast guard vessel had to be turned away from Pedra Branca, I would assume that the RSN ships patrolling the area would be doing so with the utmost vigilance.
If the accident really happened in Singapore waters, then surely our VTIS system would be already tracking the cargo ship. I know that our ship traffic monitoring systems are able to pinpoint ships with a degree of + / - 10m, with a good 95% accuracy too, and if there were any technical difficulties on board the RSS Courageous, I am would think that they would have had the courtesy to report a 55m long blockage in the sea. According to your scenario. Now that a collision really occured, the RSS Courageous was probably not outside the maritime seperation zone right? Otherwise they would not slow down to 3 -4 knots?
And apparently, the investigations ongoing, I heard involve the playback of VTIS files, up to the point of the incident. Which meant that Port Authorities WERE tracking the ships, or (with NDU's latest piece of information that Port Authorities do not track patrol vessesl) at least one of them.
In anycase, like before. I believe that the rock plays an important part in our operations and must not be given up. However, I can already smell the Malaysian arguement from 10 miles away. They are bound to blame Singapore for improper vessel traffic management, citing the most recent example, as well as the collision in July 1999. -
What I can say is simpleÂ….Originally posted by Shotgun:Eh NDU, this is not a television programme. So dun call forum users viewer, cos that is not the proper "callsign." Oh by the way, I don't appreciate people messing around with my nick just because they have differences of opinion. It really demonstrates their character. "Viewers" wont put any blame on the Port Authorities, why? Cos if there is any fault, it will be the Navy's.
Oh by the way. The MPA has Vessel Traffic Information systems that can track and GUIDE ships that appear to be on a collision course. However, I'm not saying that they track RSN ships too.
You r highly educated and IÂ’m notÂ… me just N level, I cant use those POWDERFUL words like youÂ…..
As for the words ‘viewer’ if you wanna laugh… just carry on… as I cant think of a BETTER word then this…
But for the point you have madeÂ… I still donÂ’t agree!! CozÂ… its NOT the FACT!! Why solaris say he agree with my point? CozÂ… he know whats im trying to say and thatÂ’s some actual fact that I cant mention it down here!! If I were to say those callsign or how we gonna operate in the patrol sectorÂ… two things will happen!! If I being CAUGHT of telling those info down hereÂ… me kena screw big time!! 2nd, if OTHER country navy personal saw this piece of newsÂ… they will know how we operate!! AND FOR UR SO CALL VTIS FILE!! Go and check that WHO actually give them those file!!! As you are asking meÂ… IF IÂ’M THAT SMARTÂ…. I WOULD KNOW WHOS AT FAULTÂ…. HaloÂ…. Who mÂ’I to SAY WHICH PARTY is at fault? Ofcoz I cant answer this question!! But the ANSWER is pretty obvious!! Why ANL is allow to leave?
As for your nickÂ… I donÂ’t intend to play with it!! As I only notice it when you say it. SoÂ… paisay abt thatÂ…. And if you think that IÂ’m lao lanÂ…. IÂ’ve too agree with thatÂ…Â….. yes IÂ’mÂ…..
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Originally posted by solaris:
hello shotgun
I do not know NDU and i agree that his way of putting his point across may be a bit abrasive. However i have to agree with his points.
you from navy? you agree with my point!! thanks... this shown that after spending so many in the navy i did learn something!!
me talk lao lan? hahahaha i'm from where... you know... coz, thats the way we train ....
last but not least... ppl who read ur post they will agree with you as you r good in expressing you view in words.... as for me... only ppl like you who know the picture then you will agree.....
I served onboard one of the APV for a significant period of time and the waters off Pedra Branca are certainly areas for which the RNS is responsible for patrolling. At every single moment throughout the year, one RSN ship(normally a PV of 182 SQN or a APV of 189 SQN) will be out at sea on patrol missions - This information was released in one of the Pioneer articles.
[b]Courageous was on a routine patrol mission
The APV is not stationary but probably rather at a speed of 3 - 4 knots - Most patrol ships do patrol at that speed at some point in the patrol and for all the news report about the traffic density off Pedra Branca, most watchkeeping officers of 182 and 189 will agree with me that off Pedra Branca, the traffic is relatively light once you are out of the maritime traffic separation scheme in operation there. This permit you to operate at a relatively low speed. However once we are in the traffic lanes, we will pick up speed to perform collision avoidance with the commercial vessels. As of now, we do not know the motion status of Courageous(Pennant Number 96). The patrol ships DO NOT receive collision avoidance guidance from the MPA VITS systems. The nav radar is definitely on as per the modus operandi of the mission. No comments about the EW status and I do not think any responsible naval personel will disclosed that in this forum. A possible scenario based on my experience of such missions could be as followed -
96 was off Pedra Branca on routine patrol mission and it could be at a speed ranging from 3 - 24. At the higher speed, the watch will be more vigilant and paradoxically the risk of collision will have been reduced due to the higher state of alert. However 96 could have been in a supposedly quiet area which permit it the luxury of cruising at a slow speed. The collision occurs at 1135pm with the next changing over due at midnight. Being in a quiet area and at the end of the watch, the watchkeepers could be in a more relaxed mood and with it reduced vigilance. They might not spot ANL Indonesia. ANL Indonesia probably had a course which brought them to the eastern extreme of the lane and this might not be detected by the watchkeepers. In short, I believed human negligence was to blame and we should not conjure up extraordinary scenarios to explain such incidents. The OOW, POOW, Radar Plotter of the Watch and the 2x Lookouts all share the blame but the key role rest with the OOW
[/b] -
Okay, whatever. Truce now.Originally posted by NDU:What I can say is simpleÂ….
You r highly educated and IÂ’m notÂ… me just N level, I cant use those POWDERFUL words like youÂ…..
As for the words ‘viewer’ if you wanna laugh… just carry on… as I cant think of a BETTER word then this…
But for the point you have madeÂ… I still donÂ’t agree!! CozÂ… its NOT the FACT!! Why solaris say he agree with my point? CozÂ… he know whats im trying to say and thatÂ’s some actual fact that I cant mention it down here!! If I were to say those callsign or how we gonna operate in the patrol sectorÂ… two things will happen!! If I being CAUGHT of telling those info down hereÂ… me kena screw big time!! 2nd, if OTHER country navy personal saw this piece of newsÂ… they will know how we operate!! AND FOR UR SO CALL VTIS FILE!! Go and check that WHO actually give them those file!!! As you are asking meÂ… IF IÂ’M THAT SMARTÂ…. I WOULD KNOW WHOS AT FAULTÂ…. HaloÂ…. Who mÂ’I to SAY WHICH PARTY is at fault? Ofcoz I cant answer this question!! But the ANSWER is pretty obvious!! Why ANL is allow to leave?
As for your nickÂ… I donÂ’t intend to play with it!! As I only notice it when you say it. SoÂ… paisay abt thatÂ…. And if you think that IÂ’m lao lanÂ…. IÂ’ve too agree with thatÂ…Â….. yes IÂ’mÂ…..
If you guys who claim to be from the Navy says that my theory is not fact, so be it. I never intended my theory to be "factual" at all. Right from the start, I already made that clear.
Regarding "viewer" thing, it was not meant to suan u or anything. Just that u wanted to make a fuss about what "port control" was really called. It could have been called "wonderland" or "castle", I wouldn't give a damn. So I say "viewers" shouldn't be called "viewers" lor. Quite childish, I know, but that was my point.
As for the VTIS files, I don't care even if it came from the lighthouse or from the Good Ship Lollipop. As long as its there to assist in the investigations.
In any case, thats all for now. I'm just waiting for the Authorities to enlighten us on what actually happened. Of course, i will pay attention to what their explanation is, to see if it actually makes sense.
I'm not highly educated or whatever. I just like to be aware of things going on, and use my imagination to fill in the blanks.
Truce -
was one of the street liners at mount vernon today, could see the family members realli cried very badly the previous days.....moody eyes, and their hands firmly and tightly clutched in the hands of their relatives.
almost seem like they cried every single drop of tear they ever ever had. -
I also went to Mount Vernon today, but it was to say farewell to my friend who had ended his own life for reasons unknown to his family, church, friends and even girlfriend. He died a strange, lonely death leaving shocked and stunned people in his wake. I was one of those people who will always wonder what made him leap off the building. On monday he was still alive and speaking and joking with us. By the end of the week he had been cremated.
Treasure your lives. -
Funny, that was exactly the same way one of my schoolmates went.
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Sadly, on the advice of the Forensic Science Department, the RSN has decided to call off the search for the last missing Navy Girl.
There seems to be no further news about the recovery of the aft section that was sliced off the Patrol Vessel, and which contained the sleeping quarters of all the four affected Navy Girls. -
halo...Originally posted by Atobe:Sadly, on the advice of the Forensic Science Department, the RSN has decided to call off the search for the last missing Navy Girl.
There seems to be no further news about the recovery of the aft section that was sliced off the Patrol Vessel, and which contained the sleeping quarters of all the four affected Navy Girls.
just came back today...... now then i know.... not only the body, the aft deck.... but SOMETHING jialat missing also!! and die die we must get that item back!!! sigh sigh sigh...i was there for 4 days.... nothing much we can do also..... so sad... 
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any hint wat that may be?
missiles..
torps...
Code book...
top secret files...
??