Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:To you maybe.
So whose version of democracy do we follow if "full democracy" is not possible ? There would be differing partial ones, no ? To insist one's version of democracy is the only democratic one would not be respecting democracy, no ?
good suggestion, i agree. The problem is that government's ideology, he treat ppl like babe, parliament is occupied with elite with phD degrees, but sometimes, they do not see from laymen point of view. Under a stressed society, alcohol really relieve people, and cigar, this is probably the suggestion i would make. Anyway, we have right to decide what's good for ourselves.
So whose version of democracy do we follow if "full democracy" is not possible ?
We cannot blindly follow.
We must develop according to the current conditions and experiment.
Originally posted by maurizio13:
The people don't know how to run country, that I agree, that's why we vote in politicians to "look after the citizen's interest", instead these same politicians look after they own self interest first.
And who did the Singaporean citizens agreed to run Singapore in the last election...
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Everybody think like you, no wonder no fighting spirit in Singapore.
Sacre this scare that, dish out the tired PAP propaganda to me.
This type of propaganda cannot work anymore.
It is weakening.
Perhaps you don't see the threat, but I do...Do you understand crowd dynamics...? People tend to be more brave in a crowd and have a sense of anonymity in the sea of people... They have the feeling of "I can do anything I want and no one would know"... It would be nice to have a peaceful protest in Singapore but can you imagine what would happen it that peaceful protest become violent riot IN Singapore?
We're not a big country that can recover from a riot easily. We're not a big country that "a big roit" is only contained in one town... If a big riot happens in SIngapore, it will spread from Boon Lay to Pasir Ris, from Woodlands to Marina Bay... Don't have to look far... the 1992 Las Angeles Riot involved the entire of Los Angeles all because of a court's decission of letting an African American killer aquitted... 2007, Tibet riot that started from a peaceful protest...
I can take risks, but what you're risking is the safety of the entire of Singapore... You must understand crowd dynamics to fully understand the danger when a group becomes a crowd...
Originally posted by kramnave:So whose version of democracy do we follow if "full democracy" is not possible ? There would be differing partial ones, no ? To insist one's version of democracy is the only democratic one would not be respecting democracy, no ?
i think they are not just talking about the"democracy", but at least some part of democracy could help. such as the suggestion Poh have made.
I can take risks, but what you're risking is the safety of the entire of Singapore... You must understand crowd dynamics to fully understand the danger when a group becomes a crowd...
I do not buy this argument since other countries have done so peacefully.
I do not see a reason why Singapore cannot handle that.
Smaller space should be easier to control.
Originally posted by maurizio13:
But isn't this form of democracy you claim distorted in favour of those in power.Media is a powerful tool, if messages are repeated long enough, it becomes a fact.
What they have done is curtailed the use of media in politics by setting up barriers, to allow free entry, alot like economics.
If free entry is not allowed, free competition will not happen, as it's always the case with a monopoly industry.
Competition is always good for the consumer and citizens, because it brings out cheaper and better quality goods and services.
I can't tell if it'll be any different if they free up the press seriously but i reckon they should do that. People are already reading Gopalan Nair's rubbish. What can be worse ?
Originally posted by MohamedF:And who did the Singaporean citizens agreed to run Singapore in the last election...
Perhaps you don't see the threat, but I do...Do you understand crowd dynamics...? People tend to be more brave in a crowd and have a sense of anonymity in the sea of people... They have the feeling of "I can do anything I want and no one would know"... It would be nice to have a peaceful protest in Singapore but can you imagine what would happen it that peaceful protest become violent riot IN Singapore?
We're not a big country that can recover from a riot easily. We're not a big country that "a big roit" is only contained in one town... If a big riot happens in SIngapore, it will spread from Boon Lay to Pasir Ris, from Woodlands to Marina Bay... Don't have to look far... the 1992 Las Angeles Riot involved the entire of Los Angeles all because of a court's decission of letting an African American killer aquitted... 2007, Tibet riot that started from a peaceful protest...
I can take risks, but what you're risking is the safety of the entire of Singapore... You must understand crowd dynamics to fully understand the danger when a group becomes a crowd...
when riot is in concern it's decided by how much people could tolerate the government's policy, In history people fight through wars, because we are not happy, and riot is not big deal, situation could always be settled, afraid of it, it's just like a baby want to learn run without fall, or ride a bycycle without fall.If people choose what we want to do, we are more happy to do it, not stay there and wait.
Originally posted by rokkie:
i think they are not just talking about the"democracy", but at least some part of democracy could help. such as the suggestion Poh have made.
Dude, then everybody would have differing ideas and theories of what democracy is. In the end LPPL because One very big reason why we can't have full democracy is we can't hold referendums all the time on every single issue.
but i reckon they should do that.
The PAP regime should end their monopoly on press control.
Nothing but state propaganda now.
Originally posted by kramnave:I can't tell if it'll be any different if they free up the press seriously but i reckon they should do that. People are already reading Gopalan Nair's rubbish. What can be worse ?
Maybe you can tell us which part of his post you consider rubbish?
Do you consider everything supplanted by P4P in the Newspaper and on the TV 100% political facts?
Originally posted by kramnave:I can't tell if it'll be any different if they free up the press seriously but i reckon they should do that. People are already reading Gopalan Nair's rubbish. What can be worse ?
free up the media is a necesary step for a mature model of society. Trust we can judge what's right and wrong,
Originally posted by kramnave:Dude, then everybody would have differing ideas and theories of what democracy is. In the end LPPL because One very big reason why we can't have full democracy is we can't hold referendums all the time on every single issue.
what r u talking about, democracy means that we select our candidate to represent our wills. Of course we cannot hold referendums for every issue.
One very big reason why we can't have full democracy is we can't hold referendums all the time on every single issue.
That is why I say "full democracy" is not possible or desirable in politics.
But Switzerland has something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
democracy is good, is like republic is better than monarchy, though it cannot solve every problem, but simply it's better than despot.When a society is occupied by certain amount of ppl with good education and indepent thinking, we always go for that, but this is just discussion i am not encouraging anyone to do anything abnormal.
Now political power is held by only a handful of people, the most powerful is the Lee family.
Very dangerous and unhealthy.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:That is why I say "full democracy" is not possible or desirable in politics.
But Switzerland has something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
this would mean the decision making process very long, and not good for the fast paced and fast decision making required society.
Anyway even the democracy you are talking about do not mean every decision they make are wise.
Originally posted by rokkie:democracy is good, is like republic is better than monarchy, though it cannot solve every problem, but simply it's better than despot.When a society is occupied by certain amount of ppl with good education and indepent thinking, we always go for that, but this is just discussion i am not encouraging anyone to do anything abnormal.
Having credible people with good education and independent thinking is good, tis what a Democracy should promote.
But most of the time in a fake democracy we see close relatives of the ruling elite being put in positions to strengthen their position.
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Maybe you can tell us which part of his post you consider rubbish?Do you consider everything supplanted by P4P in the Newspaper and on the TV 100% political facts?
He has many rubbish posts. Can find a few for you later if you haven't found them already.
If there is anything political in the straits times i tend to quickly skim through them as they are 100% bound to be pro-PAP. Even if its not, "rest assured that the problem is being acknowledged and efforts are being underway to resolve their shortcomings". Thus, I can't be really bothered to read everything as well. I wouldn't say that they are 100% facts.
Having credible people with good education and independent thinking is good, tis what a Democracy should promote.
This is what the mainstream media should promote.
Now their job is to keep the people in slumber and vote PAP.
I despise it.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:That is why I say "full democracy" is not possible or desirable in politics.
But Switzerland has something like that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy
Which leads to partial democracy and whose partial democracy to take ? How to "develop according to the current conditions and experiment"?
straits times is a propaganda mouthpiece of the state.
I try to avoid it as much as possible.
Originally posted by kramnave:He has many rubbish posts. Can find a few for you later if you haven't found them already.
If there is anything political in the straits times i tend to quickly skim through them as they are 100% bound to be pro-PAP. Even if its not, "rest assured that the problem is being acknowledged and efforts are being underway to resolve their shortcomings". Thus, I can't be really bothered to read everything as well. I wouldn't say that they are 100% facts.
Frankly, I don't read Gopalan's post too much, only read his recent encounter with the authorities.
If you don't expect 100% facts from the pro-P4P newspaper with their numerous journalist and editors.
Surely you can't expect 100% facts from a non-professional journalist like Gopalan Nair.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:I do not buy this argument since other countries have done so peacefully.
I do not see a reason why Singapore cannot handle that.
Smaller space should be easier to control.
I am 100% against any public protest in Singapore...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYnJiiLGwjY&feature=related
you know how hard is it to control a crowd? New Year's eve 2008, my friend was deployed for crowd control to make sure no one cross the street by Fullerton Hotel. But one mangkok cross then suddenly the entire New Year's eve crowd break the cordon and freely walk on the road. More police were deployed but still the crowd don't care because of the feeling of anonymity in a crowd... it took the deployment of the SOC troop and 30mins + to rebuild the cordon... and that is just a happy going New Year crowd...
You need to be out there on the ground handling corwd control in a major event to fully appretiate the power of a crowd... let alone a riot...
And even if we can control it, can you imagine the damage that would be caused every minute a riot is not brought under control?
Hundreds of thousands of people in a confined space rioting, how many thousands will get injured?
Can you imagine our business district getting trashed, vandalised, and burnt? Our infructure, roads, communications any one of them damaged by rioters... But most importantly, our reputation... If a country wide riot would to happen in Singapore, how many businesses would just pack up and move to Batam or Malaysia...
How much grief would would it cause the citizens and economy...
Adain, I am 100% against large scale public protest in small Singapore...
How to "develop according to the current conditions and experiment"?
SDP has some ideas on that: