1st world country, 3rd world situation, Uniquely Singapore
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Originally posted by Midlusionz:
I was having this debate with my mum last night.. I was telling her how fuk up is LKY .. She was like "He has done alot for Singapore" .. I straight tell her in the face "That was your time and ya he did alot but isnt it time for him to pass to baton and F how much are we singaporean paying everyday? If u dun agree next time bills come dun tell mi expensive and dun go market and come home complaining wat this wat that price raise" She keep quiet and continue watching TV. Seriously, our standard of living really damn high ..tell me which place in the world in over all is cheap?
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
tell me which place in the world in over all is cheap?
Tell mi which country goverment is like ours.
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Not true. I have normal friends with 2nd upper honours who till now, cannot find any job
Try the shipyard lor...
So you are telling us that we should all accept more work for less pay?
If u do not wanna do, and the job need to be taken, then FT has to come into the picture
If so, why are we not providing them with even more welfare (monthly welfare allowance), like what Hong Kong is giving its aged citizens? Afterall, they have all contributed to what Singapore is today.
If u r poor and needy in singapore, u do get welfare and cheap housing
funny how you said the above when you said the following in an earlier post
Well it is having a job versus no job. If u have a choice, u will choose the more better paid and more comfortable job. If u do not have a choice, then u can only do it
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Somebody here is so naive and has a pathetic simple mind. 1 plus 1 is always 2.
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Well, let's not blame them for being simple minded =p
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Originally posted by Midlusionz:
Well, let's not blame them for being simple minded =p
It is not a blame, it is fact, get it.
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"1st world country, 3rd world situation, Peculiarly Singapore"
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Try the shipyard lor...
If u do not wanna do, and the job need to be taken, then FT has to come into the picture
If u r poor and needy in singapore, u do get welfare and cheap housing
Well it is having a job versus no job. If u have a choice, u will choose the more better paid and more comfortable job. If u do not have a choice, then u can only do it
time and again, you display a mind of a simpleton bordering on arrogance.
the issue is no longer if you have a choice of jobs, it is rather you are price out, all other things being equal. unless the employer is an equal opportunity one, the uniquely singapore situation is always where the son of singapore got marginalized in his own land. perhaps not so much in the white collar space, but definitely in the blue collar space. i am a white collar worker, and i am been fortunate to have never been retrenched, but i have seen friends and close colleagues reduced to next to nothing after being retrenched overnight. when an opening recurs, he competes with all candidates on almost unequal terms, because he is most likely price out of the market because he would like to retain his lifestyle. there is nothing wrong in that. nobody likes to regress in his career path, including you, if you are working already.
even for a sweeper, must the salary pave on a slippery slope when cost of living is rising? we are not even talking about keeping up with the inflation. on the same token, these so called elite continues to raise their own salaries to stratrosphere level, regardless of performance. if things need to be competitive, why can't they be the first and lead by example and take a pay cut? why the needy and the less-have needs to take the first cut?
"not happy? be a taxi driver lah". " buay song ah, sweep the floor lah." this line of thinking reinforced your uncaring singaporean (if you are one) atttitude with little or no compassion.
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I understand wat is happening but it is like the rise of fuel and commodities price. I also hear a lot of stories about how people find it difficult to feed themselves and make ends meet. But tis is a world wide phenomenon and wat can be done ?
As said, if u stop FT from coming in, do u think it is good for the general population of singapore ? If u talk about being outpriced, singapore is already being out priced by other countries. It is sad people r retrenched but companies r already moving out singapore and if we r not careful, the employment rate may increase. Then tat is the real problem since more retrenchment and more lower wage can be seen. So wat do u propose we should do ?
As said, the only thing to do is simply... choose the best course of action for the general good of the citizen. Think of the big picture. There r people retrenched and people who downgrade their lifestyles, but otherwise it may be the case of massive retrenchment and massive unemployment resulting in a worse problem.
It is covenient to put the finger on FT, but think of it tis way. The company is already sensitive about wages and tat is why they r recuiting FT instead. If tis option is unavailable, they can just find it easier to relocate to their country instead.
About the pay of minister, one phenomenon seen is tat the top job of CEO or Vice president etc is rising while the bottom rung of the population see their salary reduced. Do we really have to peg their pay to sweepers ? The sweepers pay reduce while the CEO increase, then we reduce minister's pay ? Then if opposite happens where CEO reduce and sweeper increase, do we also reduce their pay ? If we reduced the pay, there will be an obvious effect tat some will leave and lesser choice for the replacement.
Lastly, i am not an uncaring person... and I am not rich, surviving only on less than 3000 a month. But then when i see things, i see them through logic and rationality and often think "If I am in their shoes, wat will i do" before I complain.
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nobody says stop foreigners in completely...we do need them. do you agree the floodgate is wide open here in singapore?
nobody is saying reducing the salary of leaders to pittance. if LHL cannot work for $1m other than his current salary because he can `get more elsewhere', i say then he doesn't deserve to lead singapore because he has neither passion for the people and nation to leadnor the moral authority to do the right thing for singapore. the same goes to the rest of his cabinet. if tomorrow their salaries are halve and 10 of them walked out, i say good riddence because they don't have their heart in the right place.
if you cannot understand that as simply as i have put them, then i rest my case.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Try the shipyard lor...
If u do not wanna do, and the job need to be taken, then FT has to come into the picture
If u r poor and needy in singapore, u do get welfare and cheap housing
Well it is having a job versus no job. If u have a choice, u will choose the more better paid and more comfortable job. If u do not have a choice, then u can only do it
Try the shipyard lor...
He's not engineer. That sentence wasn't against your engineer statement. A 2nd upper degree is social science.
If u do not wanna do, and the job need to be taken, then FT has to come into the picture
You still do not get the point. You are asking people to do more for less. So supposed your current job, you are paid $3k a month. Then a FT come along with comparable qualifications and experience, and come with a price tag of $2k. Your boss tells you that either you take a pay cut of 33% or you leave, how would you feel?
If u r poor and needy in singapore, u do get welfare and cheap housing
How is the poor and needy being judged? What welfare are there? Food and transport coupons? How is this being compared to welfare for all senior citizens in HK (only those born in HK are eligible)?
Well it is having a job versus no job. If u have a choice, u will choose the more better paid and more comfortable job. If u do not have a choice, then u can only do it
The point that everyone is trying to bring across to you is that the government is leaving almost everyone with no choice. Accept your lower pay or let FTs do the job.
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
In and out is very common.In fact,gross migration leaving SG
shall be more than 1000.Many came to SG,at least planned for short term.
Many become long term and settle here.
But our net gain is very high,if u trust CIA report.
I find wars torn countries also got very net gain.
UK saw 400,000 left in 2005.So,can u say UK
is a police state?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7096352.stm
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2112rank.html
Chee Soon Juan and his foreign buddy made big mistakes
in migration figures.
They think SG experienced net loss of population.But in fact
Spore was one ot the top net gain in migrations.What a fool
and egg head academic for his foreign buddy!!
What is the figures Spore gained from foreigner coming to this country?
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do you agree the floodgate is wide open here in singapore?
It seems to be a bit open to me as well
i say then he doesn't deserve to lead singapore because he has neither passion for the people and nation to leadnor the moral authority to do the right thing for singapore
I do not know about u but if u ask me, if i wanna get a pay reduction to work in politics where my life will be restricted forever
I say no....
Is the heart in the right place... I don't know but it seems to people tat politician must be like very virtuous and cannot be like normal people who just work for... well pay... As wat someone said before, everyone wanna do a job tat pays well. Nobody like to regress in their career path... And such pratical people may not be performing badly in their job. (Otherwise all CEOs r lousy)
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
It seems to be a bit open to me as well
I do not know about u but if u ask me, if i wanna get a pay reduction to work in politics where my life will be restricted forever
I say no....
Is the heart in the right place... I don't know but it seems to people tat politician must be like very virtuous and cannot be like normal people who just work for... well pay... As wat someone said before, everyone wanna do a job tat pays well. Nobody like to regress in their career path... And such pratical people may not be performing badly in their job. (Otherwise all CEOs r lousy)
With regards to foreign professional, there seemed to us that they do not like to stay long in this country.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
It seems to be a bit open to me as well
I do not know about u but if u ask me, if i wanna get a pay reduction to work in politics where my life will be restricted forever
I say no....
Is the heart in the right place... I don't know but it seems to people tat politician must be like very virtuous and cannot be like normal people who just work for... well pay... As wat someone said before, everyone wanna do a job tat pays well. Nobody like to regress in their career path... And such pratical people may not be performing badly in their job. (Otherwise all CEOs r lousy)
the perils of (absolute) meritocracy. the very thing the PAP has designed and manage to brainwash the majority of singaporeans.
sad you feel this way too, money talks.
all the more i gotta leave this place. i clearly don't fit in.
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He's not engineer. That sentence wasn't against your engineer statement. A 2nd upper degree is social science.
Maybe a teacher ?
You still do not get the point. You are asking people to do more for less. So supposed your current job, you are paid $3k a month. Then a FT come along with comparable qualifications and experience, and come with a price tag of $2k. Your boss tells you that either you take a pay cut of 33% or you leave, how would you feel
I feel bad.But then u got to see the scenario in the big picture again. Suppose FT r stopped and then u retain your 3K job... for half a year before the company decide to go to china and invest and leave u retrenched. How would u feel then ?
How is the poor and needy being judged? What welfare are there? Food and transport coupons? How is this being compared to welfare for all senior citizens in HK (only those born in HK are eligible)?
If u r old and needy, the gov give u money and shelter. Tat is why there is no vangabond in singapore. Do u think we should give welfare to all senior citizens ? U think the old boss of CK Tang and banks deserve welfare money ?
The point that everyone is trying to bring across to you is that the government is leaving almost everyone with no choice. Accept your lower pay or let FTs do the job
As long as there is a high demand for jobs, the pay will not get to be too low. If the FT is good, they will not settle for low pay as well
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With regards to foreign professional, there seemed to us that they do not like to stay long in this country.
Some people want them to stay long, some want them to leave soon...
the perils of (absolute) meritocracy. the very thing the PAP has designed and manage to brainwash the majority of singaporeans.
sad you feel this way too, money talks.
....
if money is not an issue,
we wouldn't be talking about FT anyway...
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
when i see things, i see them through logic and rationality and often think "If I am in their shoes, wat will i do" before I complain.
25yr old.... jus out frm uni.... cannot get honour(maybe cos i stupid, or...), went out find job.
Got wife got family, want eat want flat. Go interview, boss say nono nw market price is 2k for u, want it take it, dun want bye bye. We ate frozen meat, take bus, accept no pay rise, rise GST help me so happy, vote pap... Wa... but now....
My mum also cannot find job leh.... she want to wash plate in food court, but dunno why cannot find job, might as well the food court all move to China... doesnt make a pittance of a difference to us if they move.P/S the above is my work of fiction... but nonetheless true in every sense
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Suppose FT r stopped and then u retain your 3K job... for half a year before the company decide to go to china and invest and leave u retrenched. How would u feel then ?
veil threat. has singapore no more competitive advantage anymore that can differentiate itself from china? will singapore not reinvent itself? are there not niches where singapore can still excel in? you really spout a lot of rubbish here. if that is really the case, then the question of $million dollar salary of the ministers come into the discussion (again). lowering salaries, that kind of solution ah tee ah kow also know.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:As long as there is a high demand for jobs, the pay will not get to be too low. If the FT is good, they will not settle for low pay as well
duh, the FTs are not settling for low pay, they are getting 2-5x of what they are getting back home. in fatc, they will settle for less here since it is still significantly higher than their pay back home. singaporeans are the ones getting the short end of the stick.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Some people want them to stay long, some want them to leave soon...
....
if money is not an issue,
we wouldn't be talking about FT anyway...
that's right. you nail it in the head. i think it is your head. meritocracy does not apply to the blue collar workers.
interviewee: i upgraded myself. don't i deserve $50more in this job? after all, the gahmen says training to constantly improve oneself to make oneself employable.
interviewer: are you dumb or what? meritocracy don't apply to `disposable' worker like you. after you, i got 10 pinoys waiting to do the same job as you for $100 less than MY asking pay. mind you, not yours. so, you keen or not? dun say i dun support singaporeans arg....
that sinking feeling.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Maybe a teacher ?
I feel bad.But then u got to see the scenario in the big picture again. Suppose FT r stopped and then u retain your 3K job... for half a year before the company decide to go to china and invest and leave u retrenched. How would u feel then ?
If u r old and needy, the gov give u money and shelter. Tat is why there is no vangabond in singapore. Do u think we should give welfare to all senior citizens ? U think the old boss of CK Tang and banks deserve welfare money ?
As long as there is a high demand for jobs, the pay will not get to be too low. If the FT is good, they will not settle for low pay as well
I feel bad.But then u got to see the scenario in the big picture again. Suppose FT r stopped and then u retain your 3K job... for half a year before the company decide to go to china and invest and leave u retrenched. How would u feel then ?
I mentioned this before too to the other forumers. But then, from your reply, it seems that you are one easily resigned by fate and circumstances. Either that or you must be easily satisfied, preferring to work till age 70, then go around collect metal can drinks during your twilight years for survival.
If u r old and needy, the gov give u money and shelter. Tat is why there is no vangabond in singapore. Do u think we should give welfare to all senior citizens ? U think the old boss of CK Tang and banks deserve welfare money ?
Well, that amount offered wouldn't even make them bat an eyelid, and I dare to say that they wouldn't even bother going to apply for and collect it. Even then, I would say they deserve the money too, because they have made gigantic contributions to Singapore. So yes, the old boss of CK Tang and banks do deserve the welfare money.
As long as there is a high demand for jobs, the pay will not get to be too low. If the FT is good, they will not settle for low pay as well
We had seen high demand for jobs matched by high (and easy) supply of FTs. That wouldn't equate to an increase in pay leh
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veil threat. has singapore no more competitive advantage anymore that can differentiate itself from china? will singapore not reinvent itself? are there not niches where singapore can still excel in? you really spout a lot of rubbish here. if that is really the case, then the question of $million dollar salary of the ministers come into the discussion (again). lowering salaries, that kind of solution ah tee ah kow also know.
Lets put it tis way... developed countries r seeing a hollowing effect as well. Singapore has advantages but sad to say labour intensive market is not one of them.
Furthermore, current situation is not as if the pay of singaporean suddenly reduced
duh, the FTs are not settling for low pay, they are getting 2-5x of what they are getting back home. in fatc, they will settle for less here since it is still significantly higher than their pay back home. singaporeans are the ones getting the short end of the stick.
Well there r two kind, one of them is the lower value job such as labourer where they do get a higher pay. Another kind is the higher level such as engineers etc. If the FT can come to singapore to compete on high level job, they can go to other countries other than singapore. Tat is why they r leaving pretty fast as well
i upgraded myself. don't i deserve $50more in this job? after all, the gahmen says training to constantly improve oneself to make oneself employable.
I thought upgrading is a change in profession. If u upgrade from a lorry driver to become, lets say, a clerk.
Then your pay is gonna increase as well as your life
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
I thought upgrading is a change in profession. If u upgrade from a lorry driver to become, lets say, a clerk.
Then your pay is gonna increase as well as your life
i am glad i can help you broaden your horizon here. upgrading doesn't mean just a change of profession. it can also mean moving up the food chain on the type of job you are currently on.
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I mentioned this before too to the other forumers. But then, from your reply, it seems that you are one easily resigned by fate and circumstances. Either that or you must be easily satisfied, preferring to work till age 70, then go around collect metal can drinks during your twilight years for survival.
Actually u r pretty right on me being resigned by fate and circumstances
My motto is to do things using the "best course of action" approach...
As said long time ago. Life is just gonna get harder and harder... The problems of the other develop economies is high unemployment rate and stagnant pay as well...
I don't know.. maybe I just see the problem too analytically and not emotionally
Well, that amount offered wouldn't even make them bat an eyelid, and I dare to say that they wouldn't even bother going to apply for and collect it. Even then, I would say they deserve the money too, because they have made gigantic contributions to Singapore. So yes, the old boss of CK Tang and banks do deserve the welfare money.
The amount is enough for some to survive solely on it. And tis money should be given to the needy and not to the rich. Giving to the rich is giving less to the poor
We had seen high demand for jobs matched by high (and easy) supply of FTs. That wouldn't equate to an increase in pay leh
Believe it or not, the number of FT r not free flow. There is a quota for number of local to number of foreigner in a company
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i am glad i can help you broaden your horizon here. upgrading doesn't mean just a change of profession. it can also mean moving up the food chain on the type of job you are currently on.
So it is still good isn't it ?
On FT, I must say I do not know all the things because of the obvious fact I am not from the gov service. I can only offer is my point of view. As said before, a lot of developed countries have problem with immigration as well and it is a source of complaints and a reason to swging votes for their country.
IMO, however one thing tat is always mixed up is tat people feel tat because of FT their lives has become worse. To me, it is actually the life had become worse and tat is why FT has to come in.