1st world country, 3rd world situation, Uniquely Singapore
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Actually u r pretty right on me being resigned by fate and circumstances
My motto is to do things using the "best course of action" approach...
As said long time ago. Life is just gonna get harder and harder... The problems of the other develop economies is high unemployment rate and stagnant pay as well...
I don't know.. may I just see the problem too analytically and not emotionally
The amount is enough for some to survive solely on it. And tis money should be given to the needy and not to the rich. Giving to the rich is giving less to the poor
Believe it or not, the number of FT r not free flow. There is a quota for number of local to number of foreigner in a company
Actually u r pretty right on me being resigned by fate and circumstances
My motto is to do things using the "best course of action" approach...
As said long time ago. Life is just gonna get harder and harder... The problems of the other develop economies is high unemployment rate and stagnant pay as well...
I don't know.. may I just see the problem too analytically and not emotionally
Actually I don't see how analytical you really were, other than saying we should all accept life as that
The amount is enough for some to survive solely on it. And tis money should be given to the needy and not to the rich. Giving to the rich is giving less to the poor
Which is why they should just give. How many percentages of the senior citizens we have here are rich enough? Do you really think it is more efficient to sieve out the really needy than to give every senior citizen?
Believe it or not, the number of FT r not free flow. There is a quota for number of local to number of foreigner in a company
Believe me, there's a way to circumvent that quota (more of a ratio) easily. I have mentioned it before somewhere else in this forum. One method: employ someone else (maybe a housewife) by name, and pay that person CPF, but no salary. Then you can employ even more foreigners already, because on paper, you have employed another Singaporean. The amount paid to the CPF is much less than what a boss could have paid if he had really employed one more Singaporean.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
So it is still good isn't it ?
what is good? -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
So it is still good isn't it ?
On FT, I must say I do not know all the things because of the obvious fact I am not from the gov service. I can only offer is my point of view. As said before, a lot of developed countries have problem with immigration as well and it is a source of complaints and a reason to swging votes for their country.
IMO, however one thing tat is always mixed up is tat people feel tat because of FT their lives has become worse. To me, it is actually the life had become worse and tat is why FT has to come in.
To me, it is actually the life had become worse and tat is why FT has to come in.
Care to explain why life has become worse?
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Actually I don't see how analytical you really were, other than saying we should all accept life as that
Hmm... well then wat do u think should be done ?
Which is why they should just give. How many percentages of the senior citizens we have here are rich enough? Do you really think it is more efficient to sieve out the really needy than to give every senior citizen?
I do not agree with tis point of view. Most senior citizens r not needy and if we just give, we r reducing the amount of money the needy can get. Lets say only 20% r needy and instead of channeling money to tis group of people, we r giving to the insanely rich people as well. Tat is not right
Believe me, there's a way to circumvent that quota (more of a ratio) easily. I have mentioned it before somewhere else in this forum. One method: employ someone else (maybe a housewife) by name, and pay that person CPF, but no salary. Then you can employ even more foreigners already, because on paper, you have employed another Singaporean. The amount paid to the CPF is much less than what a boss could have paid if he had really employed one more Singaporean.
We should talk about legal means and not illegal means. If u wanna talk about illegal means, then u can frankly do a lot of bad things with or without FT.
what is good?
From a factory worker to a supervisor. Tat is also inproving his life isn't it ?
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Care to explain why life has become worse?
A globalised world means everybody is going to the cheap sites to do business. A globalised world is where companies have to fight tooth and nail over competition and profit of companies r not increasing.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Hmm... well then wat do u think should be done ?
I do not agree with tis point of view. Most senior citizens r not needy and if we just give, we r reducing the amount of money the needy can get. Lets say only 20% r needy and instead of channeling money to tis group of people, we r giving to the insanely rich people as well. Tat is not right
We should talk about legal means and not illegal means. If u wanna talk about illegal means, then u can frankly do a lot of bad things with or without FT.
From a factory worker to a supervisor. Tat is also inproving his life isn't it ?
Hmm... well then wat do u think should be done ?
Does that matter if you are already accepting it as it is?
I do not agree with tis point of view. Most senior citizens r not needy and if we just give, we r reducing the amount of money the needy can get. Lets say only 20% r needy and instead of channeling money to tis group of people, we r giving to the insanely rich people as well. Tat is not right
Are they really? I rather all the GST credits go to only senior citizens than to everyone.
We should talk about legal means and not illegal means. If u wanna talk about illegal means, then u can frankly do a lot of bad things with or without FT.
The method I mentioned is legal. You are technically employing someone to do nothing; there's nothing illegal about it.
In addition, the other legal way is to employ locals as cleaners or other low value jobs, then allocate the "expensive" jobs to foreigners.
These are all legal.
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Does that matter if you are already accepting it as it is?
Well if there is a better alternative, then obviously we should go for tat.
Are they really? I rather all the GST credits go to only senior citizens than to everyone
Lets see the equation
needy senior citizen vs all senior citizen (1)
all people vs senior citizen (2)
U felt tat we should focus on giving the money to (2) as a sort of targeting the more needy people. Why not use targeting from (1) as well ?
The method I mentioned is legal. You are technically employing someone to do nothing; there's nothing illegal about it.
The problem is your housewife is not doing the work. It is cheating.
In addition, the other legal way is to employ locals as cleaners or other low value jobs, then allocate the "expensive" jobs to foreigners.
Tis may be true though... but most big firms r not significantly altering the ratio by doing tat ba...
Anyway most agree tat FT has to come here. So wat is the amount they should come over ? So wat is the balance point ?
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Well if there is a better alternative, then obviously we should go for tat.
Lets see the equation
needy senior citizen vs all senior citizen (1)
all people vs senior citizen (2)
U felt tat we should focus on giving the money to (2) as a sort of targeting the more needy people. Why not use targeting from (1) as well ?
The problem is your housewife is not doing the work. It is cheating.
Tis may be true though... but most big firms r not significantly altering the ratio by doing tat ba...
Well if there is a better alternative, then obviously we should go for tat.
Well, the better alternative for me is to be my own boss in the near future. Then I won't have any complaints about foreigners being employed and etc...
Lets see the equation
needy senior citizen vs all senior citizen (1)
all people vs senior citizen (2)
U felt tat we should focus on giving the money to (2) as a sort of targeting the more needy people. Why not use targeting from (1) as well ?
Did you really understand my statement?
The problem is your housewife is not doing the work. It is cheating.
You are talking about being legal. It is legal. At least I know 1 small company doing that.
Tis may be true though... but most big firms r not significantly altering the ratio by doing tat ba...
The main complaints come from SMEs I believe, not MNCs where it is likely that staff costs are not the most major component of their overall expenditure.
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Well, the better alternative for me is to be my own boss in the near future. Then I won't have any complaints about foreigners being employed and etc...
Lets say u r the primie minister. Then wat do u propose to do for the economy of singapore in the long run ?
Did you really understand my statement?
Hmm.. isn't it telling tat money should be targeted at poorer people and needy people like old folks instead of simply anyone ?
You are talking about being legal. It is legal. At least I know 1 small company doing that
From a legal perspective, it is illegal. One company doing it doesn't means it is legal
The main complaints come from SMEs I believe, not MNCs where it is likely that staff costs are not the most major component of their overall expenditure.
Tat is right.
Not relevant to the discussion but...
U all sounds as though the job market outside is incredibly bad... I thought it is still ok
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Lets say u r the primie minister. Then wat do u propose to do for the economy of singapore in the long run ?
Hmm.. isn't it telling tat money should be targeted at poorer people and needy people like old folks instead of simply anyone ?
From a legal perspective, it is illegal. One company doing it doesn't means it is legal
Tat is right. U all sounds as though the job market outside is incredibly bad... I thought it is still ok
Lets say u r the primie minister. Then wat do u propose to do for the economy of singapore in the long run ?
Weren't we discussing about you accepting life as it is?
Hmm.. isn't it telling tat money should be targeted at poorer people and needy people like old folks instead of simply anyone ?
I said I rather the GST credits be given to old folks than to everyone. Please read back.
From a legal perspective, it is illegal. One company doing it doesn't means it is legal
Which law said it is illegal to employ someone to do nothing? Go confirm with a lawyer.
Tat is right. U all sounds as though the job market outside is incredibly bad... I thought it is still ok
It is rather bad. Most of my friends got employed by GLCs or govt agencies, and not much from private companies. And those are already the first-class or 2nd upper honours pple. And do remember, being an intern in Silicon Valley in the US earns you around $4k USD monthly already.
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Weren't we discussing about you accepting life as it is?
I think there is a confusion here... I am saying about the gov... Regardless of wat happened before, lets treat it as a new question. Wat do u think the gov should do about FT
I said I rather the GST credits be given to old folks than to everyone. Please read back.
Why the old folks and not anyone ?
Which law said it is illegal to employ someone to do nothing? Go confirm with a lawyer
It is not illegal but if they employ people who r not working there at all to cheat the quota of locals to foreigners, it may be different
It is rather bad. Most of my friends got employed by GLCs or govt agencies, and not much from private companies. And those are already the first-class or 2nd upper honours pple. And do remember, being an intern in Silicon Valley in the US earns you around $4k USD monthly already.
At least they found job... tat is already not bad liao...
...
silicon valley in the US also seeking for very good students as well... if your friend is like the top student in the school, he maybe able to go over.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
I think there is a confusion here... I am saying about the gov... Regardless of wat happened before, lets treat it as a new question. Wat do u think the gov should do about FT
Why the old folks and not anyone ?
It is not illegal but if they employ people who r not working there at all to cheat the quota of locals to foreigners, it may be different
At least they found job... tat is already not bad liao...
...
silicon valley in the US also seeking for very good students as well... if your friend is like the top student in the school, he maybe able to go over.
I think there is a confusion here... I am saying about the gov... Regardless of wat happened before, lets treat it as a new question. Wat do u think the gov should do about FT
Why don't you offer your views here before twisting to a new question?
Me and another forumer has already agreed in a previous discussion that FTs are a necessity, but the overly relaxed way PAP is bringing them into the country is not supported.
Why the old folks and not anyone ?
You have the energy to work, they have contributed their youth and energy to the growth of Singapore. Are you trying to tell me that they shouldn't receive any welfare? Yet why are we still seeing poor old folks around collecting cardboards and tin cans?
It is not illegal but if they employ people who r not working there at all to cheat the quota of locals to foreigners, it may be different
Still the same thing. Which law stated explicitly that this is illegal? Does it matter if there's no job scope at all for the employee?
At least they found job... tat is already not bad liao...
The top scorers found the job. How about the many many others who scored less and find it extremely hard to find a job? FYI, CSIT only employed 3 pple this year (out of 34 applicants).
silicon valley in the US also seeking for very good students as well... if your friend is like the top student in the school, he maybe able to go over.
I bet you have not heard of NUS's NOC program before making this statement.
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Me and another forumer has already agreed in a previous discussion that FTs are a necessity, but the overly relaxed way PAP is bringing them into the country is not supported.
maybe ba...
You have the energy to work, they have contributed their youth and energy to the growth of Singapore. Are you trying to tell me that they shouldn't receive any welfare? Yet why are we still seeing poor old folks around collecting cardboards and tin cans?
True they work for singapore but the welfare should be given to the one tat have to collect the cardboard for a living and not the ones who r damn rich. Aren't we distributing money from the poor citizen to the rich in tis case ?
Still the same thing. Which law stated explicitly that this is illegal? Does it matter if there's no job scope at all for the employee?
how about cheating of tax ? He employ a person, give him only CPF and not give him a salary. The salary, which does not exist, is reduced from the company profit. Tis overall reduce the tax they give to gov which is cheating. If the company really give him a salary, then it defeat the whole purpose of not employing tis guy to do work instead.
The top scorers found the job. How about the many many others who scored less and find it extremely hard to find a job? FYI, CSIT only employed 3 pple this year (out of 34 applicants).
Lets put it tis way... if your result is bad, expect your job opportunity to be harder. With or without FT tis is the same
bet you have not heard of NUS's NOC program before making this statement
I am out of touch with schools programs etc but again if u r good in your study, u can apply for overseas, such as silicon valley, for work as well
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
maybe ba...
True they work for singapore but the welfare should be given to the one tat have to collect the cardboard for a living and not the ones who r damn rich. Aren't we distributing money from the poor citizen to the rich in tis case ?
how about cheating of tax ? He employ a person, give him only CPF and not give him a salary. The salary, which does not exist, is reduced from the company profit. Tis overall reduce the tax they give to gov which is cheating. If the company really give him a salary, then it defeat the whole purpose of not employing tis guy to do work instead.
Lets put it tis way... if your result is bad, expect your job opportunity to be harder. With or without FT tis is the same
I am out of touch with schools programs etc but again if u r good in your study, u can apply for overseas, such as silicon valley, for work as well
True they work for singapore but the welfare should be given to the one tat have to collect the cardboard for a living and not the ones who r damn rich. Aren't we distributing money from the poor citizen to the rich in tis case ?
The question is, as I have already mentioned few posts back, whether it is more cost-efficient to give everyone, or better to sieve out one by one?
how about cheating of tax ? He employ a person, give him only CPF and not give him a salary. The salary, which does not exist, is reduced from the company profit. Tis overall reduce the tax they give to gov which is cheating. If the company really give him a salary, then it defeat the whole purpose of not employing tis guy to do work instead.
Well, you are technically still employing someone. Thus, that is not cheating of tax. The accounts and the employment numbers will still tally properly.
Lets put it tis way... if your result is bad, expect your job opportunity to be harder. With or without FT tis is the same
That's true. But you should know that only a minority score first class and 2nd uppers. What is going to happen to the majority? What would you do as PM? Let everyone be cleaners and construction workers?
I am out of touch with schools programs etc but again if u r good in your study, u can apply for overseas, such as silicon valley, for work as well
Well, the problem here is that FTs take over your jobs even though they might not be as good in their studies.
That said, I have already demonstrated my capabilities in my results and achievements, and I have to say that it is not as easy as you have made it out ("with the if you are good in your studies"). I know I will be able to land a job in most places because my achievements are definitely within the top 1%, but it is my many other friends whose results are not as good who are finding it extremely hard to land a job now.
And again, I do have many FTs as my friends. But then, it will really make you think twice about the govt policies when you do have an encounter that I had today. I spoke to a PRC cashier in English, and she replied in Mandarin. If that's all, it's still ok, but she gave a look like "why can't you just speak Mandarin if you know how to". And this is not unique to the cashier I encountered, I'm pretty sure there are many others.
The most polite and nice foreign workers I've met so far are actually the Bangla construction workers.
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Originally posted by Melbournite:
anyone can notice the parallellism here? Thats really strange that 1000 ppl every year migrate.
last i know that this scenario is for 3rd world countries like Sri Lanka, Africa where they come to Australia to escape their hopeless fate in their homelands. These people could not go back due to various reasons like civil war, poverty ect. and they stay in australia to get an education and a job.
But Singapore, a first world country?! . 1st world country, 3rd world situation. Uniquely Singapore.
Singaporeans are the new "refugees", abeit a higher class one, educated and skilled in other countries.
There are other parallellesims as well which such as the Death Penalty and Caning which resembles 3rd world countries.
I believe what you meant is irony rather than parallelism. -
The question is, as I have already mentioned few posts back, whether it is more cost-efficient to give everyone, or better to sieve out one by one?
Going by your logic, it is also more cost effective to give everyone, young or old the same amount of money instead of sieving one by one
Well, you are technically still employing someone. Thus, that is not cheating of tax. The accounts and the employment numbers will still tally properly.
As said, u have to give the real salary, not just the CPF to the person. Otherwise the accounts does not tally. when u give the real salary, u might as well employ a real person working for u
That's true. But you should know that only a minority score first class and 2nd uppers. What is going to happen to the majority? What would you do as PM? Let everyone be cleaners and construction workers?
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job. In a society there r always more lousy jobs than good jobs. It is a dirty job but someone had to do it. U r thinking cleaner and construction worker suck, but someone had to be cleaner and construction workers in the end
Well, the problem here is that FTs take over your jobs even though they might not be as good in their studies.
Having a good result make u easier to find work. It doesn't means u will definitely have the best work around but it ensures finding a good job to be easier
I know I will be able to land a job in most places because my achievements are definitely within the top 1%, but it is my many other friends whose results are not as good who are finding it extremely hard to land a job now.
If your friend settle for a lousier job, they can find it easily. If they do not want to do lousy job, then who should do it ? If we give FT, people complain they r too liberal and steal jobs. It is hard to please everybody
And again, I do have many FTs as my friends. But then, it will really make you think twice about the govt policies when you do have an encounter that I had today. I spoke to a PRC cashier in English, and she replied in Mandarin. If that's all, it's still ok, but she gave a look like "why can't you just speak Mandarin if you know how to". And this is not unique to the cashier I encountered, I'm pretty sure there are many others.
Tat seems to be a very very very minor issue...
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Going by your logic, it is also more cost effective to give everyone, young or old the same amount of money instead of sieving one by one
As said, u have to give the real salary, not just the CPF to the person. Otherwise the accounts does not tally. when u give the real salary, u might as well employ a real person working for u
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job. In a society there r always more lousy jobs than good jobs. It is a dirty job but someone had to do it. U r thinking cleaner and construction worker suck, but someone had to be cleaner and construction workers in the end
Having a good result make u easier to find work. It doesn't means u will definitely have the best work around but it ensures finding a good job to be easier
If your friend settle for a lousier job, they can find it easily. If they do not want to do lousy job, then who should do it ? If we give FT, people complain they r too liberal and steal jobs. It is hard to please everybody
Tat seems to be a very very very minor issue...
Going by your logic, it is also more cost effective to give everyone, young or old the same amount of money instead of sieving one by one
Do you seriously think sieving by age is as bad as sieving by things like "means testing"???
As said, u have to give the real salary, not just the CPF to the person. Otherwise the accounts does not tally. when u give the real salary, u might as well employ a real person working for u
Glad you realised that even by employing someone to do nothing for the ratio, the boss can still have huge savings. The amount of salary to be given is determined by the boss. He can give you $500 a month, and employ 3 other foreigners to do a job $1k cheaper than a local.
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job. In a society there r always more lousy jobs than good jobs. It is a dirty job but someone had to do it. U r thinking cleaner and construction worker suck, but someone had to be cleaner and construction workers in the end
It's obvious you don't get the point at all.
Having a good result make u easier to find work. It doesn't means u will definitely have the best work around but it ensures finding a good job to be easier
Wrong and simplistic view
If your friend settle for a lousier job, they can find it easily. If they do not want to do lousy job, then who should do it ? If we give FT, people complain they r too liberal and steal jobs. It is hard to please everybody
Of course, if they settle for a sales person job earning $1k a month, they can find it easily. But is that to their networth? Are you telling me that the government should let people with uni degree do jobs that are not making full use of their potential? Like that what for waste money let them study uni? Either way you do not make sense.
Tat seems to be a very very very minor issue...
So a foreigner coming to your country and is rude to you is a minor issue. Try going to any other first world country and be rude to their citizens. Seems like you do not even have a sense of nationality, yet you sound like you support Singapore so much.
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Do you seriously think sieving by age is as bad as sieving by things like "means testing"???
To find out your means is just a little bit more work, like your addresss (HDB etc) and whether u r staying with a dependent (same people in the address) and your income tax.
Glad you realised that even by employing someone to do nothing for the ratio, the boss can still have huge savings. The amount of salary to be given is determined by the boss. He can give you $500 a month, and employ 3 other foreigners to do a job $1k cheaper than a local.
U read it wrongly. U propose the boss to employ a fake person into the company and just give her CPF and not the salary. However if they do tat, tat is illegal since she did not take any salary but the salary have to be accounted from the account to make it accountable. If u really alter the book tis way, then it is illegal since u r cheating tax as well. The only way to balance the book and not cheat tax is to really give the housewife salary and CPF. If tat is the case, then your plan is really not working since u might as well employ a real person to do the job
It's obvious you don't get the point at all.
Elaborate
Wrong and simplistic view
Elaborate
Of course, if they settle for a sales person job earning $1k a month, they can find it easily. But is that to their networth? Are you telling me that the government should let people with uni degree do jobs that are not making full use of their potential? Like that what for waste money let them study uni? Either way you do not make sense.
Since u feel they r valued higher, then they can find a better job. With a low unemployment rate, finding job tat suits your value is not difficult. My opinion is, it is not your friend tat have not found a decent job (not a salesperson but probably some work in a small company), but they just wanna choose a better option.
http://www.smu.edu.sg/news_room/press_releases/2008/20080512.asp
SMU achieve close to 100% employment bet 4000-10000 a month
http://www.np.edu.sg/HOME/MEDIA/RELEASE/YEAR2008/JAN_MAR/Pages/
20080121.aspx
93% employment for poly, average monthly salary 1800
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20080528-67577.html
90% business secured job 1 month before graduation, average salary 2900
http://www2.ntu.edu.sg/ClassAct/Jun08/CampusNews/1.htm
95% NBS graduate find job in a month
2/3 cohort have multiple job offer
mean gross $2900
7.8% more than last year
nearly 100% found job
Now who wanna tell me there is no jobs in singapore and all have been taken by FT ?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html
If u look at the unemployment rate, minus off funny cities and countries, singapore is rank pretty good on unemployment rate
So a foreigner coming to your country and is rude to you is a minor issue. Try going to any other first world country and be rude to their citizens. Seems like you do not even have a sense of nationality, yet you sound like you support Singapore so much
Com'on... is she rude to u ? U just do not like the look she give to u. If tat is considered rude then u better not go to france because everyone give u tat look if u speak english
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
To find out your means is just a little bit more work, like your addresss (HDB etc) and whether u r staying with a dependent (same people in the address) and your income tax.
U read it wrongly. U propose the boss to employ a fake person into the company and just give her CPF and not the salary. However if they do tat, tat is illegal since she did not take any salary but the salary have to be accounted from the account to make it accountable. If u really alter the book tis way, then it is illegal since u r cheating tax as well. The only way to balance the book and not cheat tax is to really give the housewife salary and CPF. If tat is the case, then your plan is really not working since u might as well employ a real person to do the job
Elaborate
Elaborate
Since u feel they r valued higher, then they can find a better job. With a low unemployment rate, finding job tat suits your value is not difficult. My opinion is, it is not your friend tat have not found a decent job (not a salesperson but probably some work in a small company), but they just wanna choose a better option.
http://www.smu.edu.sg/news_room/press_releases/2008/20080512.asp
SMU achieve close to 100% employment bet 4000-10000 a month
http://www.np.edu.sg/HOME/MEDIA/RELEASE/YEAR2008/JAN_MAR/Pages/20080121.aspx
93% employment for poly, average monthly salary 1800
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20080528-67577.html
90% business secured job 1 month before graduation, average salary 2900
Com'on... is she rude to u ? U just do not like the look she give to u. If tat is considered rude then u better not go to france because everyone give u tat look if u speak english
To find out your means is just a little bit more work, like your addresss (HDB etc) and whether u r staying with a dependent (same people in the address) and your income tax.
Compare that to all senior citizens being able to collect a welfare package by going to their nearest RC with their IC. How much less work is that than sieving through records after records?
U read it wrongly. U propose the boss to employ a fake person into the company and just give her CPF and not the salary. However if they do tat, tat is illegal since she did not take any salary but the salary have to be accounted from the account to make it accountable. If u really alter the book tis way, then it is illegal since u r cheating tax as well. The only way to balance the book and not cheat tax is to really give the housewife salary and CPF. If tat is the case, then your plan is really not working since u might as well employ a real person to do the job
1) It is not a fake person you are employing
2) There's no law stating that the salary cannot be voluntarily "returned" to the boss. Must everything be stated extremely clearly to you before you can understand? It's a win-win situation for both employer and employee afterall.
3) From 1 and 2, you are still wrong to say that it is illegal. You can't jump the steps in claiming something is illegal and it is cheating before saying that the employment isn't valid, which it is.Seems like you cannot understand what is the grey area under the law.
Elaborate
Workers aside, since you like to look at the big picture, working in a job that does not suit your calibre constitutes an inefficient allocation of labour resource by the economy. Imagine your tax monies going down the drain because it was used to train someone to do an engineering job and who ended up as a construction worker or taxi driver.
And, you are moving from FTs snatching local jobs (supposedly higher end ones) to encouraging locals to accept so called "lousier" jobs. And for your cleaner and construction worker jobs, do you seriously think the employer will employ a uni grad to do the work? Put yourself in the shoes of a fresh grad out of uni, would you accept such a job of $1k when almost everyone of your friends and calibre are taking jobs of $3k +?
Since u feel they r valued higher, then they can find a better job. With a low unemployment rate, finding job tat suits your value is not difficult. My opinion is, it is not your friend tat have not found a decent job (not a salesperson but probably some work in a small company), but they just wanna choose a better option.
No, they have not been offered a job. Even my sis with 2nd uppers had to apply for near to 60 companies before 1 company offered a job finally. 1 out of 60.
http://www.smu.edu.sg/news_room/press_releases/2008/20080512.asp
SMU achieve close to 100% employment bet 4000-10000 a month
I tried this on my SMU friend before, and he immediately shot me down that this is rubbish. Do go and confirm with real life SMU friends, and not rely on reported averages. You can't see reality from averages.
http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20080528-67577.html
90% business secured job 1 month before graduation, average salary 2900
This is from your website:
Of the 1,232 students who graduated from the Nanyang Business School (NBS) at the Nanyang Technological University (NTU) last year, 90 per cent secured a job months before graduation.
Com'on... is she rude to u ? U just do not like the look she give to u. If tat is considered rude then u better not go to france because everyone give u tat look if u speak english
Try going to France to work and you speak English and expect everyone to speak English to you. Or Germany. Or any other non-speaking country. You are speaking as if she's a tourist, and not someone who is supposed to merge into our society.
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Compare that to all senior citizens being able to collect a welfare package by going to their nearest RC with their IC. How much less work is that than sieving through records after records?
Is certainly more work but it certainly is worthwhile. Tis is like a form of charity from the taxpayer to the recipients. Surely u want every cent to be worth it ?
1) It is not a fake person you are employing
2) There's no law stating that the salary cannot be voluntarily "returned" to the boss. Must everything be stated extremely clearly to you before you can understand? It's a win-win situation for both employer and employee afterall.
3) From 1 and 2, you are still wrong to say that it is illegal. You can't jump the steps in claiming something is illegal and it is cheating before saying that the employment isn't valid, which it is.Seems like you cannot understand what is the grey area under the law.
If tat is the case, NO companies make a profit and need to be tax. Why ? I give all the profit to my wife as a payment for her service, then she return to me. Tat is worse cheating and u got another person involved
Workers aside, since you like to look at the big picture, working in a job that does not suit your calibre constitutes an inefficient allocation of labour resource by the economy. Imagine your tax monies going down the drain because it was used to train someone to do an engineering job and who ended up as a construction worker or taxi driver.
I am not talking about engineers doing construction work. I am saying in society, there r many jobs tat require people to do. Tat is why not everyone should be a degree holder in a country. If u look back at the argument, I am saying about people who cannot get degree
If u r an second lower eng, then u should find a small company instead of MNC. U can probably try other career like teacher or police or army as well. Tis is life u know. If first class and no honor get the same job opportunity, then why will people study ? U lose the race, u have to face the music.
And, you are moving from FTs snatching local jobs (supposedly higher end ones) to encouraging locals to accept so called "lousier" jobs. And for your cleaner and construction worker jobs, do you seriously think the employer will employ a uni grad to do the work? Put yourself in the shoes of a fresh grad out of uni, would you accept such a job of $1k when almost everyone of your friends and calibre are taking jobs of $3k +?
I am not suggesting local to accept lousy job, I am suggesting people with lousier grade get lousier job. Again u have to read
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job.
I am not asking grad to take these jobs, I am telling tat lousy jobs also need people to fill up and society is never fair and some people have to do it
No, they have not been offered a job. Even my sis with 2nd uppers had to apply for near to 60 companies before 1 company offered a job finally. 1 out of 60.
how long they r out ? Convocation is tis week right ?
I tried this on my SMU friend before, and he immediately shot me down that this is rubbish. Do go and confirm with real life SMU friends, and not rely on reported averages. You can't see reality from averages
Averages is considered as a pretty accurate gauge on the... well... average of the grad... wat other statistical solution do u think is better ?
Of the 1,232 students who graduated from the Nanyang Business School (NBS) at the Nanyang Technological University (NTU) last year, 90 per cent secured a job months before graduation.
Because tis year they r still convocating. only after 6 months can the result be gathered
Try going to France to work and you speak English and expect everyone to speak English to you. Or Germany. Or any other non-speaking country. You are speaking as if she's a tourist, and not someone who is supposed to merge into our society.
U must be so wrong. A lot of French do not speak english even to tourist. As said, giving u a look is not rude.. particularly when it maybe because u r too sensitive
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Is certainly more work but it certainly is worthwhile. Tis is like a form of charity from the taxpayer to the recipients. Surely u want every cent to be worth it ?
If tat is the case, NO companies make a profit and need to be tax. Why ? I give all the profit to my wife as a payment for her service, then she return to me. Tat is worse cheating and u got another person involved
I am not talking about engineers doing construction work. I am saying in society, there r many jobs tat require people to do. Tat is why not everyone should be a degree holder in a country. If u look back at the argument, I am saying about people who cannot get degree
If u r an second lower eng, then u should find a small company instead of MNC. U can probably try other career like teacher or police or army as well. Tis is life u know. If first class and no honor get the same job opportunity, then why will people study ? U lose the race, u have to face the music.
I am not suggesting local to accept lousy job, I am suggesting people with lousier grade get lousier job. Again u have to read
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job.
I am not asking grad to take these jobs, I am telling tat lousy jobs also need people to fill up and society is never fair and some people have to do it
how long they r out ? Convocation is tis week right ?
Averages is considered as a pretty accurate gauge on the... well... average of the grad... wat other statistical solution do u think is better ?
Because tis year they r still convocating. only after 6 months can the result be gathered
U must be so wrong. A lot of French do not speak english even to tourist. As said, giving u a look is not rude.. particularly when it maybe because u r too sensitive
Is certainly more work but it certainly is worthwhile. Tis is like a form of charity from the taxpayer to the recipients. Surely u want every cent to be worth it ?
So you are telling me that it is worthwhile to be inefficient, to spend money to sieve out pple to give welfare to? That the money that could have been given to others be spent on hiring pple to sieve out pple to give money?????
If tat is the case, NO companies make a profit and need to be tax. Why ? I give all the profit to my wife as a payment for her service, then she return to me. Tat is worse cheating and u got another person involved
That's why there's family businesses. So in your logic, all family businesses are cheating???????
And if you give all your profits to your wife, you will still incur income tax and CPF; money gone out that cannot be used back into the business. In the end, you still have to source for revenues, else your assets and liabilities balance will look bad, and no one will be willing to invest in your company.
I am not talking about engineers doing construction work. I am saying in society, there r many jobs tat require people to do. Tat is why not everyone should be a degree holder in a country. If u look back at the argument, I am saying about people who cannot get degree
If u r an second lower eng, then u should find a small company instead of MNC. U can probably try other career like teacher or police or army as well. Tis is life u know. If first class and no honor get the same job opportunity, then why will people study ? U lose the race, u have to face the music.
If you look back at the discussion, I have started by discussing on pple with degree. No idea why you constantly want to shift the discussion away to pple without degree.
The problem is, a small company would rather hire foreigners now. And now you are telling everyone that being a teacher or a policeman or an army personnel is a dumping ground because one cannot find a job elsewhere????
I am not suggesting local to accept lousy job, I am suggesting people with lousier grade get lousier job. Again u have to read
Tis is life. Majority of the population cannot even get a degree. They r also people tat goes to jail etc. Then they have to settle for a lousier job.
I am not asking grad to take these jobs, I am telling tat lousy jobs also need people to fill up and society is never fair and some people have to do it
It is still acceptable if you had said that people with lousier grades get a lower pay for the same type of job. By saying that "people with lousier grade get lousier job", you have generalised a lot. There are many people with lousier grades than you and doing a much better job than you are doing right now.
I am not asking grad to take these jobs, I am telling tat lousy jobs also need people to fill up and society is never fair and some people have to do it
The discussion here is about the uni grads (my friends) which you have commented about.
how long they r out ? Convocation is tis week right ?
Exams have finished in the first week of May, and for myself, I have already been working since the last week of May. Do you think one has to wait till convocation is over before finding a job??????
Because tis year they r still convocating. only after 6 months can the result be gathered
Your news report is talking about months before graduation for the previous batch. I'm talking about the current batch (which is my batch) and till now, have not found a job. Do you really know how to compare???
U must be so wrong. A lot of French do not speak english even to tourist. As said, giving u a look is not rude.. particularly when it maybe because u r too sensitive
They do speak English to tourists, although they would prefer speaking French. And I'm not talking about suburban areas.
It is not about sensitive, you aren't even there to witness what has happened.
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So you are telling me that it is worthwhile to be inefficient, to spend money to sieve out pple to give welfare to? That the money that could have been given to others be spent on hiring pple to sieve out pple to give money?????
Let me ask u, when they give out singaporean money like some GST offset etc, aren't they already doing some "means allocation" of funds ? U think it is difficult to extend to only old folks ?
That's why there's family businesses. So in your logic, all family businesses are cheating???????
And if you give all your profits to your wife, you will still incur income tax and CPF; money gone out that cannot be used back into the business. In the end, you still have to source for revenues, else your assets and liabilities balance will look bad, and no one will be willing to invest in your company.
Family business doesn't have to cheat tax by putting all profit into a member name and record zero profit from the company. CPF is still your own money and income tax is different from business tax. If u talk about balancing the assets etc, since they already cheated on tax, why won't they doctored the book as well ? Then people will still invest in you company
Take note the key point is whether is it legal or not. Is it legal to put all profit of the company to a single individual and record zero profit and thus zero tax from the company ?
If you look back at the discussion, I have started by discussing on pple with degree. No idea why you constantly want to shift the discussion away to pple without degree.
Yes, but I find tat in society there need people to do lousy and not so good job. Your friends who have lousier result have to do the not so good job. Life is not fair and it it s afact of life.
The problem is, a small company would rather hire foreigners now. And now you are telling everyone that being a teacher or a policeman or an army personnel is a dumping ground because one cannot find a job elsewhere????
In a way, they need manpower and people r not filling out the shoes. It is not a dumping ground but it is a less popular route for people. So why not ? Somebody have to be policemen isn't it ?
It is still acceptable if you had said that people with lousier grades get a lower pay for the same type of job. By saying that "people with lousier grade get lousier job", you have generalised a lot. There are many people with lousier grades than you and doing a much better job than you are doing right now.
I totally agree with u tat lousy people can get good job. However I am talking about generally speaking from a class of graduates. The better result tend to get better jobs while the worse result people have to settle for worse job. Otherwise won't tat be unfair to people who study ? Tis is common sense right ?
The discussion here is about the uni grads (my friends) which you have commented about.
If they r my friends, I will tell them the same thing. If u get no honour for your result, u expect to get a better job than those first class peole ? Be realistic. At least find a job and then try to find a better one in the meantime
Exams have finished in the first week of May, and for myself, I have already been working since the last week of May. Do you think one has to wait till convocation is over before finding a job??????
At least they have to know wat honours they should get, whether do they clear all subjects which will drag it to june. Furthermore there r people who wanna get their last break before working and r not actively finding job just after their exam
Your news report is talking about months before graduation for the previous batch. I'm talking about the current batch (which is my batch) and till now, have not found a job. Do you really know how to compare???
U mean u expect everyone to be employed in 1 months ? Only when u have not found a job in more than 3 months, then it is a sign of high unemployment rate. Otherwise the market is just shuffling the people around and it is too early to state any conclusions. Talking about FT, is tat a problem tat surface only tis year ? Why can't last year employment result be used as a gauge ?
They do speak English to tourists, although they would prefer speaking French. And I'm not talking about suburban areas.
It is not about sensitive, you aren't even there to witness what has happened
Fact is, more people know english than french and they give u a look if u speak in english, even in paris at macdonald. I have been shown the look before just because I speak english. U r not there to witness wat happened too. However giving a look is really too mild to complain. It is not like giving u the finger or scold u or shout at u
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Let me ask u, when they give out singaporean money like some GST offset etc, aren't they already doing some "means allocation" of funds ? U think it is difficult to extend to only old folks ?
Family business doesn't have to cheat tax by putting all profit into a member name and record zero profit from the company. CPF is still your own money and income tax is different from business tax. If u talk about balancing the assets etc, since they already cheated on tax, why won't they doctored the book as well ? Then people will still invest in you company
Take note the key point is whether is it legal or not. Is it legal to put all profit of the company to a single individual and record zero profit and thus zero tax from the company ?
Yes, but I find tat in society there need people to do lousy and not so good job. Your friends who have lousier result have to do the not so good job. Life is not fair and it it s afact of life.
In a way, they need manpower and people r not filling out the shoes. It is not a dumping ground but it is a less popular route for people. So why not ? Somebody have to be policemen isn't it ?
I totally agree with u tat lousy people can get good job. However I am talking about generally speaking from a class of graduates. The better result tend to get better jobs while the worse result people have to settle for worse job. Otherwise won't tat be unfair to people who study ? Tis is common sense right ?
If they r my friends, I will tell them the same thing. If u get no honour for your result, u expect to get a better job than those first class peole ? Be realistic. At least find a job and then try to find a better one in the meantime
At least they have to know wat honours they should get, whether do they clear all subjects which will drag it to june. Furthermore there r people who wanna get their last break before working and r not actively finding job just after their exam
U mean u expect everyone to be employed in 1 months ? Only when u have not found a job in more than 3 months, then it is a sign of high unemployment rate. Otherwise the market is just shuffling the people around and it is too early to state any conclusions. Talking about FT, is tat a problem tat surface only tis year ? Why can't last year employment result be used as a gauge ?
Fact is, more people know english than french and they give u a look if u speak in english, even in paris at macdonald. I have been shown the look before just because I speak english. U r not there to witness wat happened too. However giving a look is really too mild to complain. It is not like giving u the finger or scold u or shout at u
Let me ask u, when they give out singaporean money like some GST offset etc, aren't they already doing some "means allocation" of funds ? U think it is difficult to extend to only old folks ?
Please look back. I have already said that they should give the GST offset money only to senior citizens. It's not even an extension.
Family business doesn't have to cheat tax by putting all profit into a member name and record zero profit from the company. CPF is still your own money and income tax is different from business tax. If u talk about balancing the assets etc, since they already cheated on tax, why won't they doctored the book as well ? Then people will still invest in you company
Take note the key point is whether is it legal or not. Is it legal to put all profit of the company to a single individual and record zero profit and thus zero tax from the company ?
The key here is not cheating tax because you do not need to doctor your documents at all. And yes, it is legal to put all the profit to a single individual. Is there any company laws out there that denies it?
No point you keep telling me it is illegal if you cannot raise exactly which law that says it is. It's your word against the law.
totally agree with u tat lousy people can get good job. However I am talking about generally speaking from a class of graduates. The better result tend to get better jobs while the worse result people have to settle for worse job. Otherwise won't tat be unfair to people who study ? Tis is common sense right ?
Seems like you don't understand the point of uni education. You have been too brainwashed. It's graduates who have the same mindset as you that deserves a worse job, and not graduates with worse results.
If they r my friends, I will tell them the same thing. If u get no honour for your result, u expect to get a better job than those first class peole ? Be realistic. At least find a job and then try to find a better one in the meantime
true
At least they have to know wat honours they should get, whether do they clear all subjects which will drag it to june. Furthermore there r people who wanna get their last break before working and r not actively finding job just after their exam
I'm not even talking about people who wants a break before working, but those who had been actively applying for jobs few months before graduation.
U mean u expect everyone to be employed in 1 months ? Only when u have not found a job in more than 3 months, then it is a sign of high unemployment rate. Otherwise the market is just shuffling the people around and it is too early to state any conclusions. Talking about FT, is tat a problem tat surface only tis year ? Why can't last year employment result be used as a gauge ?
You mean you cannot remember you showed an article that tells us 90% of the graduates are employed months before graduation??? How come you keep changing your comparisons one.
FTs, the problem is, when the economy is so bad, why are FTs still allowed to take the jobs away from Singaporeans?
Fact is, more people know english than french and they give u a look if u speak in english, even in paris at macdonald. I have been shown the look before just because I speak english. U r not there to witness wat happened too. However giving a look is really too mild to complain. It is not like giving u the finger or scold u or shout at u
Look around the forum. I have been to Paris and different parts of Europe, and I can tell you the look given here in Singapore was worse.
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reply to sgdieheart... He kong.. fallacy of Accident lah. Example... Men are dipshits. Sgdiehard is a man.. so therefore Sgdiehard is a dipshit..... Sweeping Generalization. Understand ? Oh wait.. I think I got it the other way round... Sgdiehard is a dipshit.. Sgdiehard is a man... therefore.. men are all dipshit... OK ? Good. He kong.. fallacy of Accident lah. Example... Men got moustache, jojobeach's father is a man.. so therefore men are jojobeach's father..... Sweeping Generalization. Understand ? Oh wait.. I think I got it the other way round... jojobeach's father is a man.. jojobeach's father got moustache... therefore.. man got moustache... OK ? Good. I understand now, thank you jojobeach is a chaperon of feminist movement...an obstinate believer bias against men...a champion of feminist rights movement
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Please look back. I have already said that they should give the GST offset money only to senior citizens. It's not even an extension.
U also have to look back. I am saying tat the needy and old people r taken care of by the gov. However u insist the current practise is not good and wanna give the money to the rich old people as well. U want to change the system worse
The key here is not cheating tax because you do not need to doctor your documents at all. And yes, it is legal to put all the profit to a single individual. Is there any company laws out there that denies it?
No point you keep telling me it is illegal if you cannot raise exactly which law that says it is. It's your word against the law.
It is the tax cheat law. U know the tip top curry puff boss who had to go to jail for cheating the tax ? He claim he made no profit from the store and off to the jail he goes. Aren't u also asking the boss to claim he made no profit as well ?
Seems like you don't understand the point of uni education. You have been too brainwashed. It's graduates who have the same mindset as you that deserves a worse job, and not graduates with worse results.
I think u need to know there r differences bet graduates. Some got first class some got merit some got just pass. U r assuming just because he is a graduate he should have equal job opportunity which is wrong.
I'm not even talking about people who wants a break before working, but those who had been actively applying for jobs few months before graduation
Is only about a month where ten thousands people graduate. Give it some time for the market to adjust itself first
You mean you cannot remember you showed an article that tells us 90% of the graduates are employed months before graduation??? How come you keep changing your comparisons one.
R u from the school of NBS ? Because the 90% is based on people from there
FTs, the problem is, when the economy is so bad, why are FTs still allowed to take the jobs away from Singaporeans?
When the economy is bad, the FT comes in lesser number. U can't just drive them out like cattles
Look around the forum. I have been to Paris and different parts of Europe, and I can tell you the look given here in Singapore was worse.
I have also been around europe and frankly speaking I have faced more rude people there than my years in singapore.