Minimalist taxing maximalist facilitator gov is what we want
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In the first place, if the government is a responsible and caring government premised on a more proactive balance of needs and aspirations will there by so many problems like what we are seeing now with the rich becoming richer and the ordinary and middle-class citizens finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet? Will we reach a situation where our first-world government has to turn to citizens to raise charities and pay lips service to help so many fellow poorer citizens.
If we have a more balanced type of government one which believes in 'no free lunch" then there will be minimal taxes since people have to look after their own basic needs and necessities and government not being responsible for such services.
Based on such minimalist government the spending on the people will be lesser and taxes could be set aside to build up a certain reserve from tax saving or hoarding from recovering of costs at market prices by all the GLCs.
With such a minimalist government we could have proceeded to build up the reserve of a certain size by now to create jobs and restructure the economy to value-adding technology-based economy very much like Venture Manufacturing is doing.
VM is only having a few good committed managers who are well guided in keeping a close look-out on world trends in manufacturing and coming up regularly with innovations to keep up with challenges.
Given a more balanced minimalist government with minimal taxing and passing back of taxes to facilitate growths and vibrancy of the economy as Venture is doing we could have arrived at a truly first-world economy by now one which is able to sustain on its own creativity and innovations through motivating the people in practical knowledge applications in all fields.
Yet we have so far taken the route of elitism promoting only a few so-called talents neglecting mass participation and practical knowledge applications (posted to Feedback Unit since 2002).
If LKY is more open and inclusive he would definitely have arrived at a more entrepreneurial government one which is more balanced in collecting taxes only for what it needs while passing back maximal benefits to the people to facilitate restructuring to a competitive global economy.
Have any of our ministers in charge of trade or economic development got their acts together before they are being branded as talents and being paid their million-dollar salaries and allowing them to make all kinds of claims as first-world government success? -
Let me summarise. It is a whole chunk of words and summarising facilitate easier understanding. If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me
U feel tat the gov should tax a lot less, then use the money to create job and restructure the economy.
Actually... tat seems to be it... I was actually expecting to write a few paragraph but after browsing through, the line above is wat u r trying to drive through...
If tat is the case, then I am pretty dissappointed... Wat u said is really... common sense... obviously the gov should tax lesser from the people if possible. Obviously the country should create jobs and fine tune the economy etc
And all tis things seems to be done now... Tax is high according to u but which country has low tax ? It is really a difference in perspective. The gov is creating job and hiring people and tat is why there is a low unemployment rate. The economy is restructuring to be biomedical and R&D etc and they r spending money into it. Contrary to public impression, Temasek is earning money and looking at ways to earn money overseas. Instead of targetting local limited industries, it is wiser to find money opportunities from overseas as well.
U r giving very vague ideas... it is also too general... It is easy to say "tax less, restructure economy, make more money" But how to precisely do tat ? Wat r the details in making singapore earn money over the long run ? Details should be like "Allowing casinoes" or "spend money building a national auto mobile company" or "spending more money on banking/oil industries" etc (examples only).
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Let me summarise. It is a whole chunk of words and summarising facilitate easier understanding. If I am wrong, please feel free to correct me
U feel tat the gov should tax a lot less, then use the money to create job and restructure the economy.
Actually... tat seems to be it... I was actually expecting to write a few paragraph but after browsing through, the line above is wat u r trying to drive through...
If tat is the case, then I am pretty dissappointed... Wat u said is really... common sense... obviously the gov should tax lesser from the people if possible. Obviously the country should create jobs and fine tune the economy etc
And all tis things seems to be done now... Tax is high according to u but which country has low tax ? It is really a difference in perspective. The gov is creating job and hiring people and tat is why there is a low unemployment rate. The economy is restructuring to be biomedical and R&D etc and they r spending money into it. Contrary to public impression, Temasek is earning money and looking at ways to earn money overseas. Instead of targetting local limited industries, it is wiser to find money opportunities from overseas as well.
U r giving very vague ideas... it is also too general... It is easy to say "tax less, restructure economy, make more money" But how to precisely do tat ? Wat r the details in making singapore earn money over the long run ? Details should be like "Allowing casinoes" or "spend money building a national auto mobile company" or "spending more money on banking/oil industries" etc (examples only).
The country seems to be governed by all kinds of hypocrisies and selfish assumptions and lack of accountability as seen in issues and problems like the NKF, Mas Selamat lame escape, Shin Corp, careless and unaccountable losses of people's hard-earned monies in UBS and Merryl Lynch etc.
What is so great about the ministers' so-called world-class talents and leadership in all these fiascos. There is no attempt at honesty or integrity or accountability to address all these problems.
In the face of all such problems the great leaders who claim to be world-class are seen as repeating stereotyped past success stories as their forte.
Let all with eyes and ears see and hear all the scams and start getting the leaders to relent and repent and do what are right for once to give all justice and equity.
Like what the ordinary citizens have always said one can tell some lies some of the time to some people but not all the lies all the time to all people. The IBA has started telling our great leaders to amend and relent by not using civil defamation laws to persecute citizens for dissenting against wrongful NKF practices in running of the country.
Read the thread "Minimalist taxing and Maximalist Facilitator Government" in the context of such problems as stated in the overall larger perspective and reply me if you like on logic and rationale.
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The country seems to be governed by all kinds of hypocrisies and selfish assumptions and lack of accountability as seen in issues and problems like the NKF, Mas Selamat lame escape, Shin Corp, careless and unaccountable losses of people's hard-earned monies in UBS and Merryl Lynch etc.
NKF has nothing to do with the gov... Shin corp is really losing money but it is one example... UBS and Merryl Lynch r very big banks and they r not gonna collapse soon. Lets give tis investment a few years to see if it yield or lose.
Seem Shin corp is the only one deserving of notice from your example. When they r buying the share, it is not wrong because we r buying the shares from the thailand prime minister, and there is nothing illegal in the dealing, and telecommunication is a rising star worldwide. However who can expect a coup detat to arise in thailand ?
It is easy for u to mention tis problem but then wat r your suggestion ? Nothing. Wat should we buy ? Wat should we invest ? How to make money in the long term ? Obama and hillary name out policies tat can help US become richer during their debate. McCain also propose how to solve the problem of the country in the debate. Now it is the time u dish out the possible good policies to help the country. Other than saying idealogical things, wat r the concrete steps to take ? Let not talk about PAP now. Lets talk about the opposition party. Wat r the concrete steps to take for singapore to make money ?
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I appreciate and respect how hard you are trying to make your stand robert.
But the people, especially the middle class are highly educated now and would want to see and hear concrete alternatives, not constant ranting on what is. It's like complaining local oil prices are rising when it's a global phenomenom(sp?). We want to hear what we can do about it.
Granted the Shin Corps thing is a debacle but it's just one of those things that you can say the government did wrong only on hindsight. Who could predict the military coup?
From a financial investment standpoint, it's natural to buy low and sell high, there's not really much profit in buying the shares of a bank whose business is already booming isn't it ? Like what stupidissmart has said, give it a few years and let's see how it goes it's still too early to say they wasted the people's money.
Minimalist taxing and Maximalist Facilitator Government is a nice word to throw around but it's just like the supposedly 3G army, easy to say hard to implement. I can say all races and religions should hold hands together and sing kumbaya all day long but it's not something that would happen automatically yes?
You want more people to sit up and listen, then bring up issues and present concrete alternatives or better yet see if you can bring up the arguments from the oppositions which the main stream media refuse to show us. It's a lot productive than what you're doing now.
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Stevenson 101,
Actually the issue facing the citizens today after what have happened in NKF, Shin Corp, Mas Selamat etc is whether we are still governed effectively for the good of all citizens or are we having a government which only seeks to govern on its own selfish agendas benefiting itself and the rich for its own political expediency.
Look at the larger picture. Is this sort of governing sustainable and good for all in the longer term.
If in the larger perspective, you can still say our present leaders are still governing well and there will be no problem at all with our rising costs being caused by an expedient government going all out to serve its own agendas, there will be no need for me or us to belabor ourselves with any suggestions or putting up any more constructive concrete plans at all. After all as you will no doubt be able to see from many feedbacks so far no citizen no matter how constructive has been able to penetrate the hypocrisies put up by the self-proud and self-aggrandizing leaders to deny any shortcomings. It seems to the end of the world they will still be biting the bullet and taking the expediency route and shove all problems down the throats of simpletons.
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Let me see the bottomline u r trying to say
The gov suck. The new thing u wanna say is Mas Selamat. Frankly speaking it is indeed one of the most shameful thing tat happened to the ministry of home affairs. Although they made such a big cock up, the safety level of singapore is still good.
To be critical, how about u roberteh ? How do we know u r better ? At least they have 40 years of track record and we obtain a high quality of living. If we vote u, why will life become better ? U r quick to complain about NKF etc but everybody can make complaints. Complain is easy. The coffeeshop uncle can also say the same thing as u. The ability to come out with solution is the one tat is necessary. Do u think just by opposing the gov then suddenly everything become good ? Suddenly singaporean become all rich, all inflation problem gone, mas selamat is captured and all charity have no corruption ? Things doesn't work tat easily. We must be pro-active in trying to work out the economy. Wat is the plan to improve the economy ? Otherwise wat is the real work u do when u get voted in ? Complain ?
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Let me see the bottomline u r trying to say
The gov suck. The new thing u wanna say is Mas Selamat. Frankly speaking it is indeed one of the most shameful thing tat happened to the ministry of home affairs. Although they made such a big cock up, the safety level of singapore is still good.
To be critical, how about u roberteh ? How do we know u r better ? At least they have 40 years of track record and we obtain a high quality of living. If we vote u, why will life become better ? U r quick to complain about NKF etc but everybody can make complaints. Complain is easy. The coffeeshop uncle can also say the same thing as u. The ability to come out with solution is the one tat is necessary. Do u think just by opposing the gov then suddenly everything become good ? Suddenly singaporean become all rich, all inflation problem gone, mas selamat is captured and all charity have no corruption ? Things doesn't work tat easily. We must be pro-active in trying to work out the economy. Wat is the plan to improve the economy ? Otherwise wat is the real work u do when u get voted in ? Complain ?
Do I criticise the government because I am offering myself as a candidate for election?
Must I offer all the alternative solutions to the many problems like taxing and hoarding of monies and negative anti-progress and anti-people policies before I give my views on government's policies and behavior problems?
Yet it is so characteristic of the government which claims itself world class to deny problems and refuses to accept responsibilities even for fiascos like NKF, Shin Corp or Mas Selamat which is merely the tip of the iceberg of problems people are currently facing.
True the government has certain successes in the initial years up to perhaps the 1970s.
After that it is no longer the same government but has become one which only cares for its own selfish agendas to stay in power and reward itself despite failures to restructure the economy to the value-adding and knowledge-based economy talked about for years.
Read my alternative solutions to many problems as posted in another thread "minimalist taxing and maximalist facilitator government is what we want" for constructive suggestions.
The truth is many alternative solutions have been put up by people over the years which are more than worthwhile to look into but has the government ever been bothered to listen or pay attention.
It is the attitude of the government which is now the real issue.
It is now found beyond all doubts that it is a government of hypocrisy of the first order.
On the one hand, the leaders in international conferences often lamented our people lack of interest in politics and even wondered why our own journalists are mum in forums MM Lee was speaking in and on the other the same government will be resorting to all kinds of hypocrisy to deny answering to problems and issues.
It is nothing new in what you are asking. It is the same negative government which will continue to say it will be open to views and opinions but when people do come forward to give them they will start pushing away problems and issues when confronted resorting to methods like selective comparisons with worse case scenarios in other countries or throwing back the problems at people challenging to come up with alternatives or to stand for election if they can.
What sort of feedback process is this? What sort of sincerity or openness is this?
So what you are asking is the same sort of hypocrisy in dealing with people's feedback processes that is all.
Why not just own up and so that the government has been overly paranoid and negative in its attitude towards accepting their responsibilities for failures in running of the country.
It is this negative and overly paranoid attitude which causes many of our current problems like rising costs of living and our losing economic competitiveness and it is the same negative attitude which causes so much problems found in NKF, Mas Selamat or Shin Corp which in the final analysis is only the tip of the big iceberg of poor attitude characterising the whole government.
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Lets go through your discussion again
U say the gov made mistakes
I agree with u.
U say they deny taking the responsibility
Wat "punishment" do u expect ? Does george bush admit his own mistake ? Does any politician goes about telling people they made mistake ? Don't need to even mention about politics... does businesses go about broadcasting their mistakes ? Come on la...
U say they did not restructure the economy
Is tat right ? I have seen changes to the economy these few years. Last time is is more of manufacturing, but now it had diversify to become more of R&D and fiancial + service
The truth is many alternative solutions have been put up by people over the years which are more than worthwhile to look into but has the government ever been bothered to listen or pay attention
Example ?
Why not just own up and so that the government has been overly paranoid and negative in its attitude towards accepting their responsibilities for failures in running of the country.
These past years there r some mistakes made. But can u consider them as failure in running the country ? I think tis is a bit exxagerating
Read my alternative solutions to many problems as posted in another thread "minimalist taxing and maximalist facilitator government is what we want" for constructive suggestions.
R u cutting and pasting from somewhere else ? Because tis is the thread of "minimalist taxing and maximalist facilitator" which is just a slogan
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Lets go through your discussion again
U say the gov made mistakes
I agree with u.
U say they deny taking the responsibility
Wat "punishment" do u expect ? Does george bush admit his own mistake ? Does any politician goes about telling people they made mistake ? Don't need to even mention about politics... does businesses go about broadcasting their mistakes ? Come on la...
U say they did not restructure the economy
Is tat right ? I have seen changes to the economy these few years. Last time is is more of manufacturing, but now it had diversify to become more of R&D and fiancial + service
The truth is many alternative solutions have been put up by people over the years which are more than worthwhile to look into but has the government ever been bothered to listen or pay attention
Example ?
These past years there r some mistakes made. But can u consider them as failure in running the country ? I think tis is a bit exxagerating
R u cutting and pasting from somewhere else ? Because tis is the thread of "minimalist taxing and maximalist facilitator" which is just a slogan
If as sgdiehard has admitted it is in the final analysis a government which is governing not by rationality or interest of the people but one believing in using its power including use of civil libel laws to sue opposition politicians then it is in the final analysis of not much use giving any views or constructive criticisms at all don't you think so?
So is PM Lee honestly telling the people he will work towards openness to bring about an inclusive government ?
What will be the point in asking for examples of which government policies have failed as requested whenever you could not answer to the failures brought up.
Obviously it is the same hypocrisy characterizing the whole government the way you are countering views critical of government policies. Where any point of criticism is of merit you will say something like talking about past success or worse case scenarios to deny the problems.
To the point which catches it by the throat like Mas Selamat the reply will be "who does not make mistake let's move on" or "it cannot be equal to failure in running of a country"
What else is this sort of views if such views are not sheer hypocrisy to deny problem?
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So is PM Lee honestly telling the people he will work towards openness to bring about an inclusive government ?
Well we r here discussin about politics openly isn't it ? Atobe and u have been publicly criticising the gov and your identities r not a secret (if my memory serves me well) R u caught or something before ?
What will be the point in asking for examples of which government policies have failed as requested whenever you could not answer to the failures brought up.
A mistake is a mistake, and I am not from the gov and cannot answer for them. Which country never make mistake ? US also made mistakes, and many of them labeled as crisis. Have u ever make mistakes ?
U know which country never make mistake ? The one tat don't do anything. There used to be a saying tat if u didn't make any mistakes, u did not try hard enough
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Well we r here discussin about politics openly isn't it ? Atobe and u have been publicly criticising the gov and your identities r not a secret (if my memory serves me well) R u caught or something before ?
A mistake is a mistake, and I am not from the gov and cannot answer for them. Which country never make mistake ? US also made mistakes, and many of them labeled as crisis. Have u ever make mistakes ?
U know which country never make mistake ? The one tat don't do anything. There used to be a saying tat if u didn't make any mistakes, u did not try hard enough
Let the views stand on their own merit like you said in so many posts. Do not try to intimidate any one by insinuation or name calling. If you think like sgdiehard there is no equal playing field because as government it has the right to use its power to get to what is wants then you do not need to convince us by any pretentious reasoning all will be able to see as sheer hypocrisy. Just say so there is no freedoms to give views over the net criticising the government so that all will stop posting here or replying to one-sided propaganda of yours.
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Did I intimidate by insinuation or name calling ? Wat name have I called u ?
Wat have u got to say for
Well we r here discussin about politics openly isn't it ? Atobe and u have been publicly criticising the gov and your identities r not a secret (if my memory serves me well) R u caught or something before ?
Isn't tat already a sign of opening up ? It seems to me tat u just like to repeat your points and never read wat others had write...
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Did I intimidate by insinuation or name calling ? Wat name have I called u ?
Wat have u got to say for
Well we r here discussin about politics openly isn't it ? Atobe and u have been publicly criticising the gov and your identities r not a secret (if my memory serves me well) R u caught or something before ?
Isn't tat already a sign of opening up ? It seems to me tat u just like to repeat your points and never read wat others had write...
My id is real and it stands on its own merit. Surely it is worth more than a pseudonym. Since you proclaimed to be know all why not reply to my points on their own merit instead of dismissing them as repetitions or pasting of other views.
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For all your replies, i really read through and the points r really similar to one another, very long sentence including the phrases tat r words to word the same. And after my reply, u did not really answer anything on it but just continue your same points over and over again
I am not seeking for a one sided discussion. I am seeking for your response. I am always asking people to debate. However r u really discussing or u prefer one sided propaganda by just trying to silence opposition by asking them to be... well... silent...