Temasek selling Merrill Lynch at a loss
-
Originally posted by kilua:
I took a post from M13. This is a possible scenario
Anything can happen in a year, if the US recession becomes a reality (which I most often think it will), there will be more job losses and defaults on mortgages exacerbating the already traumatised financial sector.
The kind of analysis you are giving is self justification for holding for a losing stock. Believing that a stock would definitely go up.
In investments there are no certainties, only Risks versus Rewards.To prevent a complete wipe out of investment like bear stearns, one has to control the percentage of exposure of a portfolio.
Whether to buy banking stocks depends on your current portfolio. If you have zero exposure, maybe now its a time to consider buying a little.(if you have an appetitie for risks) If you bought at the same timing as GIC or Temasek, its simply foolish to average down your losses.
Can you show me the link to his post as I would like to know which part of what you posted belongs to Maurizio13. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Hahaha....You talk to him about VAR, he will probably tell you it's variance.
Keep in mind that you are talking to an autistic child.
If it is coming from someone who can claim the following, I think everybody here would have to be very careful when is starts to talk about financial and economicsMaurizio economic rule no. 1 = Property price will move inline with inflation.
E.g. if you property is value is $1m and inflation is 10%, your property will worth $1.1m next year.
Maurizio finance rule no. 1 = Changing shareholders structures will reduced taxable income.
E.g. if a company taxable income is $1m, the owner give 50% of the company shares to his wife, the taxable income will become $500,000.
-
Originally posted by O o O:
If it is coming from someone who can claim the following, I think everybody here would have to be very careful when is starts to talk about financial and economicsMaurizio economic rule no. 1 = Property price will move inline with inflation.
E.g. if you property is value is $1m and inflation is 10%, your property will worth $1.1m next year.
Maurizio finance rule no. 1 = Changing shareholders structures will reduced taxable income.
E.g. if a company taxable income is $1m, the owner give 50% of the company shares to his wife, the taxable income will become $500,000.
I told you alredy .. go and read up the IRAS website.. so you may understand what the people here are talking about.
You're really a very stupid kid you know !!!
-
Originally posted by jojobeach:
I told you alredy .. go and read up the IRAS website.. so you may understand what the people here are talking about.
You're really a very stupid kid you know !!!
Perhaps we should remind this troll of what he has posted himself
Originally posted by £ Ĭ €Ú°:- I Am Above
Failure: So you think that you are somehow far too talented,
hard-working or knowledgeable and that everything you touch will
turn into gold? Sorry to burst your bubble there, but we humans are
flawed by nature so that, my friend, I?m afraid that you may just
be living in denial if you have such a way of thinking.
- It's
Impossible to Take Me by Surprise: If you think that being
taken by surprise is impossible if you have everything planned then
I have one questions: how is life in that fantasy world of yours
treating you? Yes, planning ahead is always recommended but
thinking that you can actually be able to prepare for absolutely
everything is just plain foolish on your part.
- If You Want
Something Done Right, Do It Yourself: Do you think that
others should never be trusted and do you think that, if you want
something done right, you should do it yourself? Aren't you giving
yourself just a little bit too much credit there? It may just be
me, but you most definitely don't strike me as a person with his or
her feet on the ground.
- I'm Never at
Fault: Others are always at fault, aren't they? You keep
doing everything right and they just ruin things for you, do they?
Sorry to have to say this, but not assuming responsibility is one
of the most obvious signs that you are living in denial.
- Everything Has
an Excuse: "I'm not going to do this because..." "I would
have done that, if not for..." Do you somehow manage to find
excuses for everything? Good
for you, maybe you will find someone who pays you for that, but for
the time being, your attitude is yet another sign that you are
simply living in a fantasy world.
- Everyone Else
is Wrong: Are all of the people who don't agree with you
clueless? Are they that ignorant, can't they understand your
brilliance? I'm sorry but, if that's the way you see things, I am
afraid that the problem lies elsewhere. One tip: it's not with
everyone else.
- It's All One Big Conspiracy I Tell You: Does it seem that everyone and their dog is working against you? Are you just a poor innocent victim in what seems to be one huge conspiracy against you? In that case, have you considered getting some help? No, everyone is not conspiring against you, and it's about time you stopped living in denial and started seeing how things actually stand
Give it a little thought. Do any of these apply to you?
Number 6 applies to this troll a great deal.
Number 7 seems to apply to some minister.
- I Am Above
Failure: So you think that you are somehow far too talented,
hard-working or knowledgeable and that everything you touch will
turn into gold? Sorry to burst your bubble there, but we humans are
flawed by nature so that, my friend, I?m afraid that you may just
be living in denial if you have such a way of thinking.
-
Originally posted by O o O:
Can you show me the link to his post as I would like to know which part of what you posted belongs to Maurizio13.Those parts in italics
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/10/topics/308186
4th post
Anything can happen in a year, if the US recession becomes a reality (which I most often think it will), there will be more job losses and defaults on mortgages exacerbating the already traumatised financial sector.
-
I guess Gazelle is too dumb to know how to use google to search for it.
-
Merrly Lynchi is having another trouble with write doen of US$5.7 billion. There is going to be an increase in stake in Merrly Lynch by Temasek.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080729/tap-markets-global-c3bb44c.html
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20080729/tap-singapore-us-banking-invest-temasek-06f3cb7.html
-
Originally posted by kilua:
I took a post from M13. This is a possible scenario
Anything can happen in a year, if the US recession becomes a reality (which I most often think it will), there will be more job losses and defaults on mortgages exacerbating the already traumatised financial sector.
The kind of analysis you are giving is self justification for holding for a losing stock. Believing that a stock would definitely go up.
In investments there are no certainties, only Risks versus Rewards.To prevent a complete wipe out of investment like bear stearns, one has to control the percentage of exposure of a portfolio.
Whether to buy banking stocks depends on your current portfolio. If you have zero exposure, maybe now its a time to consider buying a little.(if you have an appetitie for risks) If you bought at the same timing as GIC or Temasek, its simply foolish to average down your losses.
What M13 wrote is simply describing the market sentiment of wall street, hence can i know what is the message are you driving at when you quote that statement?
I believe you have to take a look into past cases of succesful acquisition to understand exactly what Temasek and GIC are doing because if what really seperate the great investor from an average one is the ability to seize opportunities when everybdoy is staying away. or what separate the man from the boys when come to investing during crisis.Just to quote you an example, during the 2001/2 recession, when indonesia was still in a big mess, Temesek, through ST telemedia, acquired a 41% stake Indosat for US$630 million. During that time, the outlook were just a bleak, there is risk that the country will collapse due to riot, and the huge threat comoing from China for labour intensive manufacturing.
And fast forward to 2008, STT sold their entire stake to Qatar Telecome for US$1,800m, or 285% US$ profits over a span of 6 years or about 45% per year.
-
Originally posted by xavier1979:
Like they say in the industry, "(Temasek) is catching a falling knife".
They had been too eager to pour in funds.they think too highly of themselves! and also they are using other people's money to invest not their own money.
-
Somebody needs to get some facts right first.
1) ST Telemedia overpaid for Indosat's shares, ST Telemedia overpaid by 50.58% for Indosat.
ST Telemedia’s offer of Rupiah5.62 trillion, or Rupiah12,950 per share for the 41.94 percent stake, represents a 50.6 percent premium to Indosat’s closing share price of Rp.8,600 on the Jakarta Stock Exchange on Friday 13 December 2002.
2) They paid Rupiah 12,950 per share for Indosat in 2002 December, the shares are currently trading at 6,450 per share. Therefore under normal market trading conditions, ST Telemedia made a loss of about 50% from the purchase price.
http://www.indosat.com/investor_relations
http://www.idx.co.id/QuoteSearch/tabid/181/language/en-US/cmd/isat/Default.aspx
3) There is one simple reason why someone is willing to pay Rupiah 38,528 per share for something which is currently traded in the Indonesia Stock Exchange for Rupiah 6,450 (6 times the current share price). There is a bigger idiot than ST Telemedia on the block.
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/communications/0,39044192,62042414,00.htm
4) Without this bid from Qatar Telecoms, if ST Telemedia were to off load the shares in the stock exchange, the share price will plummet below the current share price of Rupiah 6,450.
5) My wish is for Qatar Telecoms to buy over, then Singaporeans don't have to suffer so much losses due to the incompetencies of LKY's investment strategy.
Current Losses
1) Global Crossing
2) Shin Corp
3) Optus
4) Suzhou Industrial Project
5) Merrill Lynch
6) UBS
7) Citibank
-
Originally posted by O o O:
What M13 wrote is simply describing the market sentiment of wall street, hence can i know what is the message are you driving at when you quote that statement?
I believe you have to take a look into past cases of succesful acquisition to understand exactly what Temasek and GIC are doing because if what really seperate the great investor from an average one is the ability to seize opportunities when everybdoy is staying away. or what separate the man from the boys when come to investing during crisis.Just to quote you an example, during the 2001/2 recession, when indonesia was still in a big mess, Temesek, through ST telemedia, acquired a 41% stake Indosat for US$630 million. During that time, the outlook were just a bleak, there is risk that the country will collapse due to riot, and the huge threat comoing from China for labour intensive manufacturing.
And fast forward to 2008, STT sold their entire stake to Qatar Telecome for US$1,800m, or 285% US$ profits over a span of 6 years or about 45% per year.
If you get your facts right, there was no confirmation of a recession in Feb 2008 when I posted. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
) They paid Rupiah 12,950 per share for Indosat in 2002 December, the shares are currently trading at 6,450 per share. Therefore under normal market trading conditions, ST Telemedia made a loss of about 50% from the purchase price.
http://www.indosat.com/investor_relations
http://www.idx.co.id/QuoteSearch/tabid/181/language/en-US/cmd/isat/Default.aspx
Maurizio, as I have said before, I have lost the thrill and excitement in making you to look like fool, hence I would suggest that you find out what is the US-Rupiah exchange rate during 2002 vs 2008. -
Hmmm,
So now we see the troll admitting that his flailing and failed attempts to make others look like fools, mostly by insults and autistic reposts, is/was thrilling and exciting to him. He's totally disinterested in proper discussions at all.
-
Originally posted by maurizio13:
If you get your facts right, there was no confirmation of a recession in Feb 2008 when I posted.
The talk about a US recession started in Q307 when subprime problem start to surface and it was during Jan/Feb08 that CDOs collapses and send shock wave across all the financial institutions around the world. And that is the main reason why Temasek and GIC are invited to take up a stake in ML, UBS and Citibank.Even until today there is no confirmation that USA is in technical recession, so please dont trying to behave like another AndrewPKyap giving armchair prediction of the stock market.
-
Also not forgetting the main reason for them selling Indosat, it's because they have anti-competitive practices, they have controlling stake in 2 similar companies, thereby preventing free competition. Alot like the situation in Singapore, where the government has a stake in everything, e.g. M1, Starhub and Singtel, prices charged to customer are controlled. I guess everybody should know why such anti-competitive practices has managed to perpetuate in Singapore and not other countries.
There have been other investigations linked to Temasek, GLCs and GICs regarding anti-competitive practices in other countries like Australia and UK (regarding airlines).
-
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Also not forgetting the main reason for them selling Indosat, it's because they have anti-competitive practices, they have controlling stake in 2 similar companies, thereby preventing free competition. Alot like the situation in Singapore, where the government has a stake in everything, e.g. M1, Starhub and Singtel, prices charged to customer are controlled. I guess everybody should know why such anti-competitive practices has managed to perpetuate in Singapore and not other countries.
There have been other investigations linked to Temasek, GLCs and GICs regarding anti-competitive practices in other countries like Australia and UK (regarding airlines).
Have you figure out what is the US-Rupiah exchange rate during 2001/2?
-
I wonder which idiot made this claim in another thread.
There is no need to wait 12 months.
Ask yourself, is it cheaper to buy Merrill Lynch stock right now or in December 2007.
I am already betting that these are good investment and it will yield reasonably good returns in 12 to 18 months considering the limited investment opportunities available right now.
I am just responding to what some forumers (might include you) are saying that they can make better returns from putting money in Australia fixed deposit than CPF 3.5%. So I am asking why didnt the australia pension fund deposit their money in fixed deposit?
If you are confident about Temasek and GIC making wrong decision on ML, Citi, and UBS, are you willing to bet against this investments?
Place you bet here and we revisit this thread in 12 months time?
-
Originally posted by O o O:
Have you figure out what is the US-Rupiah exchange rate during 2001/2?
Do your own research, I have better things to do like playing with my dog.
-
Originally posted by O o O:
The talk about a US recession started in Q307 when subprime problem start to surface and it was during Jan/Feb08 that CDOs collapses and send shock wave across all the financial institutions around the world. And that is the main reason why Temasek and GIC are invited to take up a stake in ML, UBS and Citibank.Even until today there is no confirmation that USA is in technical recession, so please dont trying to behave like another AndrewPKyap giving armchair prediction of the stock market.
How come I never hear you talk about recession till today?The benefits of hindsight.
-
Originally posted by maurizio13:
I wonder which idiot made this claim in another thread.
There is no need to wait 12 months.
Ask yourself, is it cheaper to buy Merrill Lynch stock right now or in December 2007.
Ask yourself it is easier to guess the Toto number after the result is annouced?
Please dont do what AndrewPKyap is going in this forum, it will only make you look pathethic desperate and stupid.
Btw, have you figure out what is the US$-Rupiah exchange rate during 2001/2?
-
Originally posted by maurizio13:
How come I never hear you talk about recession till today?The benefits of hindsight.
Thats because you have been too busy using your mouth talking cock rather than reading facts -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
) They paid Rupiah 12,950 per share for Indosat in 2002 December, the shares are currently trading at 6,450 per share. Therefore under normal market trading conditions, ST Telemedia made a loss of about 50% from the purchase price.
http://www.indosat.com/investor_relations
http://www.idx.co.id/QuoteSearch/tabid/181/language/en-US/cmd/isat/Default.aspx
Maurizio, as I have said before, I have lost the thrill and excitement in making you to look like fool, hence I would suggest that you find out what is the US-Rupiah exchange rate during 2002 vs 2008. -
Originally posted by maurizio13:
Current Losses
1) Global Crossing
2) Shin Corp
3) Optus
4) Suzhou Industrial Project
5) Merrill Lynch
6) UBS
7) Citibank
Is that the all?
Here's some more.
It’s unusual - but for some struggling investors somehow comforting - to see that occasionally, the Singaporeans make bum investment decisions and end up losing (a lot) of money.
-
If they want to average down, Citi is a safer buy. Dunno what those imbeciles thinking. If the crisis worsens, Merril Lynch will fall before Citi does, because Citi is a consumer bank and too big to fail.
Is averaging down wise? Most traders will tell you no. But Temasek is a 'long-term investor'. So is my mother btw. She still has some M'sian stocks stuck for 12 years still underwater :P
-
Just to pause the Temasek and GIC bashing for a short while...
I am quite surprised that everybody just focused on the fact that Temasek is investing another $3.4 billion into ML but not remember the fact that Temasek has been compensated $2.5 billion by ML due to an anti-dilutive clause.
Anyway, Temasek had little choice but to pump in $900 mil more into the company. The story is simple, as long as ML doesn't go bankrupt or gets taken over there's a very high chance (~90%) that the trade will breakeven or make profits no matter how low ML stock drops due to this clause. That's why Temasek is throwing in more money to save the sinking ship, coz if they don't and ML goes down. Temasek management will definitely have to face a lot of issues on accountability.
At this stage, by not pumping in more money and staving off ML's bankruptcy, that would be the worst decision Temasek would probably have made! What's the chance of a big US bank like ML failing? The risk/reward ratio probably justifies the liquidity injection and I agree with the decision.
However, to rush head in during the midst of the credit crunch and invest 10-20% of the whole fund in the financial sector, though armored with protective clauses may still be a tad aggressive for a sovereign fund answerable to the people.
But to give Temasek or GIC some credit, they had the option of injecting liqudity into Bear Sterns, Citigroup, ML and UBS during the height of the credit crunch. And intelligently they didn't choose Bear Sterns which of course got bought over a couple of months later.
Ok guys, you all can continue bashing Temasek and GIC now =)
Below are the details:-
July 29 (Bloomberg) -- Temasek Holdings Pte., the biggest shareholder of Merrill Lynch & Co., agreed to invest a further $900 million in the securities firm after getting compensated for its initial investment in December.
The Singapore state-owned investment company will use a $2.5 billion so-called reset payment for losses from its earlier purchase toward buying $3.4 billion of Merrill stock, it said in a statement today. Merrill said it will book the reset as an expense, as well as $5.7 billion of additional writedowns.
``It looks like a good deal for Temasek,'' Teng Ngiek Lian, who manages $2.6 billion as chief executive officer of Target Asset Management in Singapore, said today. ``It's quite cleverly structured to protect their interest from future dilution and lower price placement.''
Merrill's shares have fallen 55 percent since Dec. 24, when it announced that Temasek, which manages more than $100 billion, would invest as much as $5 billion in the third-biggest U.S. securities firm. The sale would push Temasek's stake beyond the 10 percent limit for foreign investors, and the Singapore company said a portion of its new stock requires regulatory approval.
Merrill was contractually bound to compensate Temasek and the other investors who bought shares in offerings in December and January. ``You must have some reward for the risk they are taking,'' Teng said. ``That deal was done under exceptional circumstances. It was a scary time.''
Shoring Up Capital
Merrill Chief Executive Officer John Thain is pushing to shore up capital as banks including Citigroup Inc. were forced to sell assets and seek new investors amid a global credit contraction that triggered more than $468 billion in writedowns and losses.
Other than Temasek, Government of Singapore Investment Corp., which manages more than $100 billion of the country's reserves, has invested about $18 billion in UBS AG and Citigroup following writedowns by the two banks.
Thain, 53, is trying to stave off credit-ratings downgrades and demonstrate to regulators that the firm can withstand losses. Standard & Poor's on June 2 cut Merrill's rating to A from A+ and assigned a ``negative'' outlook, indicating additional downgrades were possible.
Korea Investment Corp., a Seoul-based fund that manages part of the country's foreign-exchange reserves overseas, also said today that it converted $2 billion of preferred shares in Merrill bought in January into common stock at half the price it had initially agreed to.
Merrill on July 17 reported a second-quarter net loss of $4.65 billion, or $4.97 a share, on $9.7 billion of credit- market writedowns that totaled about $46 billion before today.
Thain cut about 4,200 jobs in the first half of the year and is selling assets to replenish the firm's capital. Merrill completed the $4.43 billion sale of its stake in Bloomberg LP this month and said it signed a letter of intent to sell a controlling interest in Financial Data Services Inc., a mutual- fund administrator valued at $3.5 billion, to an undisclosed buyer.