SAF personnel come to school give talk to JC boys..
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Originally posted by Fatum:
weird ... you seems to have this mental image of gurhkas spraying down rioting crowds with machine guns .....
is this how you think riot control is done, or should be done ? ...
we're talking about using gurhkas to quell ongoing riots .... you talk about judicial enquiries to fix the blame afterwards ...... har ?.... do you know what "non-sequitur" means ? ... or in hokkien "lang gong kway, ler gong gau" people talk about chickens, you talk about dogs ...
again, your logic fail ... how do you propose to stop an on-going race riots then ? .... "Not to use violence to quell another violence ? ".... but with an independent panel to conduct an inquiry AFTERWARDS ? ....
*police black maria goes around with loud hailers ... "ladies and gentlemen, don't fight ! don't fight ! ... there'll be an full and independent judicial inquiry afterwards to determine the root causes of this race riot, but in the mean time please go back to your homes and stop killing each other " ....
and, I see that the label of being an "opposition supporter" has just become very uncomfortable all of a sudden ...
You are smart, I am not worthy.
I am in awe of you.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Have you met the regulars within the SAF? Half of them are so inept and bloated within their own egos. Life for them is an endless series of exploiting conscripts in doing work which the regulars are supposed to be doing in exchange for accepting the proverbial "King's shilling", having some meeting or another at the officer's mess, generally putting on a big show. No doubt the other half are good, hardworking people, but when half your force is full of people who only signed up because even the factories do not want them on their packing lines, and who do not even want to do the bare minimum for an honest pay, how well do you think they'll perform in times of an actual war?Thx 4justice.
I do meet regulars whom are like what u had described, finding no where else in the open market, they hid behind the payroll of the SAF for a living. There are many NSF whom are like that also, having no choice but to serve, they just want to pass their time. But let me also share with you what i know.
The strength of a military force cannot be accurately estimate at peace time because I believe the attitude of soldiers during that time is different from that of war. In times of hostility, nationalism, anger and fear in the people will bring out a different mindset in our men.
The SAF that we are all familar of, is full of lazy loafers hiding behind that large bureacratic screen of scope of responsibility, SOP and rank. Moral is seemingly low and there are little motivation to contribute or to work for more but can all these be a gauge to the true strength of our force? I dont think so.
Despite all the indifferent attitudes that we have seen, the SAF is the only force in this region that can in a few days time, rally it's men, gather enough intelligence, stock enough logistics to deploy for a period of time and a distance away from home. Our deployment of 3 LSTs during the Tsunami crisis to aceh province in Sumatra is such an example. I like you to know that 3 days is all its takes to move the first LST out of Singapore. The deployment was followed by 2 more LST later.
The whole operation was done simultaneously with the deployment of airforce helicopters and other equipments to other parts of the region as while as 1 LST in Iraq. Our Signal guys on the ground despite having men with typical serve and fuck off attitude was able to set up communication at broadband level in an area that was far from home and totally devastated. Infantry men with young boys perhaps still virgin moved without fliching into an area filled with dead bodies and still able to get their job done. These are just some of the examples of what SAF had done.
The aceh deployment had shown us that sentiments on the ground during peace time is a way different from the moral and the ability of our men to move in times of need. The amazing feat in which SAF had shown to be able to handle at Aceh will be a prelude to what will happen during times of war. The performance will jump when anger, nationalism and fear become a personal issue.
Another example will be this. Despite how much people in Singapore despise Sleague, our folks will still flock down to the National Stadium in order to support our team when we are against our neighbours. You must be there to feel to zeal, ardour and commitment to see our neighbours go back in shame.
Nationalism.
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Nationalism is a dangerous sentiment. It is what led to the rise of Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan. Patriotism MUST always be accompanied by thoughtful consideration, not blind loyalty and nationalist sentiments.
As for how people behave in times of war, you should read the new book "Sniper One" to realise that there ARE people who want to take the king's shilling and expect to not have to fight in return, even in times of war. Seeing how selfish, kiasu and self centered most Singaporeans, esp many regulars are, I doubt they'll rise to the challenge all of a sudden.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Nationalism is a dangerous sentiment. It is what led to the rise of Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan. Patriotism MUST always be accompanied by thoughtful consideration, not blind loyalty and nationalist sentiments.
As for how people behave in times of war, you should read the new book "Sniper One" to realise that there ARE people who want to take the king's shilling and expect to not have to fight in return, even in times of war. Seeing how selfish, kiasu and self centered most Singaporeans, esp many regulars are, I doubt they'll rise to the challenge all of a sudden.
Nationalism is a dangerous sentiment but it is the driving force for many. From economic protectionism to native soccer team supporters, it is about nationalism. Like many other things, it is a double edge sword but in the debate on our nation's defence, i see that it will be of good use.Yes our people are selfish, kiasu, kiasi but despite all these but we have proven our ability and will during the aceh deployment didnt we?
Wont the same kiasu and kiasi in Singaporean drive them to fight for their country when hatred, fear and nationalism became a personal issue to them during times of war when we see our people killed, land and livelihood being threatened?
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Nationalism is a dangerous sentiment. It is what led to the rise of Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan. Patriotism MUST always be accompanied by thoughtful consideration, not blind loyalty and nationalist sentiments.
As for how people behave in times of war, you should read the new book "Sniper One" to realise that there ARE people who want to take the king's shilling and expect to not have to fight in return, even in times of war. Seeing how selfish, kiasu and self centered most Singaporeans, esp many regulars are, I doubt they'll rise to the challenge all of a sudden.
Obviously you've never had a first-hand taste of these kind of things.But it's ok.....I used to think like this.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Nationalism is a dangerous sentiment but it is the driving force for many. From economic protectionism to native soccer team supporters, it is about nationalism. Like many other things, it is a double edge sword but in the debate on our nation's defence, i see that it will be of good use.Yes our people are selfish, kiasu, kiasi but despite all these but we have proven our ability and will during the aceh deployment didnt we?
Wont the same kiasu and kiasi in Singaporean drive them to fight for their country when hatred, fear and nationalism became a personal issue to them during times of war when we see our people killed, land and livelihood being threatened?
How small a percentage of people were actually deployed during the Aceh deployment? More importantly, how many of them were the garang ones who manouvered themselves into getting deployed? I would hardly use that as an example of our dedication. Until we face a situation like the Israelis did during the Yom Kippur we will never know how dedicated Singaporeans are. But from my personal observations, I simply have my doubts. And you realise that the rise of Imperial Japan AND Nazi Germany arose for the same reasons as those u quoted:
hatred, fear, threatened, past humiliations and wrongs
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Obviously you've never had a first-hand taste of these kind of things.But it's ok.....I used to think like this.
Obviously, don't assume. The problem with people on the forums is they LOVE to assume. And often are wrong with their assumptions. Epic fail -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Thx 4justice.
I do meet regulars whom are like what u had described, finding no where else in the open market, they hid behind the payroll of the SAF for a living. There are many NSF whom are like that also, having no choice but to serve, they just want to pass their time. But let me also share with you what i know.
The strength of a military force cannot be accurately estimate at peace time because I believe the attitude of soldiers during that time is different from that of war. In times of hostility, nationalism, anger and fear in the people will bring out a different mindset in our men.
The SAF that we are all familar of, is full of lazy loafers hiding behind that large bureacratic screen of scope of responsibility, SOP and rank. Moral is seemingly low and there are little motivation to contribute or to work for more but can all these be a gauge to the true strength of our force? I dont think so.
Despite all the indifferent attitudes that we have seen, the SAF is the only force in this region that can in a few days time, rally it's men, gather enough intelligence, stock enough logistics to deploy for a period of time and a distance away from home. Our deployment of 3 LSTs during the Tsunami crisis to aceh province in Sumatra is such an example. I like you to know that 3 days is all its takes to move the first LST out of Singapore. The deployment was followed by 2 more LST later.
The whole operation was done simultaneously with the deployment of airforce helicopters and other equipments to other parts of the region as while as 1 LST in Iraq. Our Signal guys on the ground despite having men with typical serve and fuck off attitude was able to set up communication at broadband level in an area that was far from home and totally devastated. Infantry men with young boys perhaps still virgin moved without fliching into an area filled with dead bodies and still able to get their job done. These are just some of the examples of what SAF had done.
The aceh deployment had shown us that sentiments on the ground during peace time is a way different from the moral and the ability of our men to move in times of need. The amazing feat in which SAF had shown to be able to handle at Aceh will be a prelude to what will happen during times of war. The performance will jump when anger, nationalism and fear become a personal issue.
Another example will be this. Despite how much people in Singapore despise Sleague, our folks will still flock down to the National Stadium in order to support our team when we are against our neighbours. You must be there to feel to zeal, ardour and commitment to see our neighbours go back in shame.
Nationalism.
Hahahahahahaha!
Do you think those SAF personnel were in much personal danger in Aceh? I mean the life-and-death one, not simply the danger of injury.
Also, were those SAF personnel instructed to kill? Set up LAN / WAN only, even a lowly techician from some IT firm also can do!
I bet that when war comes, those same Singaporean guys would be pissing their pants in fear and running away. What can you expect from a bunch of emasculated wusses?
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
How small a percentage of people were actually deployed during the Aceh deployment? More importantly, how many of them were the garang ones who manouvered themselves into getting deployed? I would hardly use that as an example of our dedication. Until we face a situation like the Israelis did during the Yom Kippur we will never know how dedicated Singaporeans are. But from my personal observations, I simply have my doubts. And you realise that the rise of Imperial Japan AND Nazi Germany arose for the same reasons as those u quoted:
hatred, fear, threatened, past humiliations and wrongs
For the RSN.....a rather big proportion.
FYI, do you know that for overseas deployment missions like these, a typical LST will call for volunteers from all over RSN for extra manpower? 3 LSTs.....you go count the numbers.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Obviously, don't assume. The problem with people on the forums is they LOVE to assume. And often are wrong with their assumptions. Epic fail
Hey chill..........!There's no need to get uptight over this.
I'm not assuming. I happen to be near the scene you're describing.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
For the RSN.....a rather big proportion.
FYI, do you know that for overseas deployment missions like these, a typical LST will call for volunteers from all over RSN for extra manpower? 3 LSTs.....you go count the numbers.
"FYI, do you know that for overseas deployment missions like these, a typical LST will call for volunteers "And who do you think volunteers? the garang people or the slackers? So 3 LST's worth of personnel makes the majority of sg's navy? and indeed is indicative of the entire Sg armed forces as well as the ferocity of the population in a war situation? Hahahaha thanks for making me laugh
You have problems with raising valid examples it seems.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Hey chill..........!There's no need to get uptight over this.
I'm not assuming. I happen to be near the scene you're describing.
Then dearie, don't assume u're the only one near the scene I'm describing =)
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
How small a percentage of people were actually deployed during the Aceh deployment? More importantly, how many of them were the garang ones who manouvered themselves into getting deployed? I would hardly use that as an example of our dedication. Until we face a situation like the Israelis did during the Yom Kippur we will never know how dedicated Singaporeans are. But from my personal observations, I simply have my doubts. And you realise that the rise of Imperial Japan AND Nazi Germany arose for the same reasons as those u quoted:
hatred, fear, threatened, past humiliations and wrongs
It doesnt matter how much or what is the percentage of people being deployed to aceh because within the strength of our troops deployed, there are people with indifferent attitudes as u have stated but most importantly, they still got their job done. -
Originally posted by 4Justice:
"FYI, do you know that for overseas deployment missions like these, a typical LST will call for volunteers "And who do you think volunteers? the garang people or the slackers? So 3 LST's worth of personnel makes the majority of sg's navy? and indeed is indicative of the entire Sg armed forces as well as the ferocity of the population in a war situation? Hahahaha thanks for making me laugh
You have problems with raising valid examples it seems.
The garang ones.Yes. 3 LSTs that go overseas will draw a large proportion of the RSN manpower.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
It doesnt matter how much or what is the percentage of people being deployed to aceh because within the strength of our troops deployed, there are people with indifferent attitudes as u have stated but most importantly, they still got their job done.
We'll see when the job becomes massively harder. Just because some kid can read a ladybird "My 1st Book" doesn't mean he can read William Shakespeare. -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
The garang ones.Yes. 3 LSTs that go overseas will draw a large proportion of the RSN manpower.
Don't just say large proportion. State a percentage. -
Originally posted by 4Justice:
Don't just say large proportion. State a percentage.
I won't. -
Originally posted by rooki:
Hahahahahahaha!
Do you think those SAF personnel were in much personal danger in Aceh? I mean the life-and-death one, not simply the danger of injury.
Also, were those SAF personnel instructed to kill? Set up LAN / WAN only, even a lowly techician from some IT firm also can do!
I bet that when war comes, those same Singaporean guys would be pissing their pants in fear and running away. What can you expect from a bunch of emasculated wusses?
Kill in aceh? No, they are not expected to kill but are expected to face danger. What makes u think that our soldiers cant kill when our enemies are shooting at us, killing our mates in war?
Lowly technician? I am demostrating the technological edge that we have. Ask any lowly technician to set up broadband communication in the middle of the sahara desert please. Be mindful that banda aceh was practically devastated in total.
Emasculated wusses? Yap i like to know how masculate our enemies are and as if they have a lot of killing experiences.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
We'll see when the job becomes massively harder. Just because some kid can read a ladybird "My 1st Book" doesn't mean he can read William Shakespeare.
I agree, reading lady bird is different from reading shakespeare.At least we can read that lady bird and may be able to go for shakespeare but most importantly, so far our neighbours had only demostrated their ability to say da da in this aspect.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
I won't.
You can't. Obviously it's not "large" as you make it out to be -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Kill in aceh? No, they are not expected to kill but are expected to face danger. What makes u think that our soldiers cant kill when our enemies are shooting at us, killing our mates in war?
Lowly technician? I am demostrating the technological edge that we have. Ask any lowly technician to set up broadband communication in the middle of the sahara desert please. Be mindful that banda aceh was practically devastated in total.
Emasculated wusses? Yap i like to know how masculate our enemies are and as if they have a lot of killing experiences.
Actually there were times of uncertainty and possible dangers, even near us. It's just.....nobody wants tensions to flare-up due to the media. Or should I say it is an open-secret.Pirate-chases, stand-off at Horsburg....how many of these have gone unreported?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
The garang ones.Yes. 3 LSTs that go overseas will draw a large proportion of the RSN manpower.
Thats RSN but a large amount of army personnel aint volunteers. -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
I agree, reading lady bird is different from reading shakespeare.At least we can read that lady bird and may be able to go for shakespeare but most importantly, so far our neighbours had only demostrated their ability to say da da in this aspect.
Well nevermind the neighbours. We're talking about how we'll fare when WE face what Israel faced during the YK War. Lets stop comparing ourselves to lower standards and feeling smug about ourselves because complacency almost lost the Israelis the YK War -
Originally posted by 4Justice:
You can't. Obviously it's not "large" as you make it out to be
The RSN has only 4500 regulars, there's 30+ ships. Draw volunteers for the LSTs and you'll see the effects of taking away even a "small" proportion.Don't fall into the fallacy of looking at mere figures.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Actually there were times of uncertainty and possible dangers, even near us. It's just.....nobody wants tensions to flare-up due to the media. Or should I say it is an open-secret.Pirate-chases, stand-off at Horsburg....how many of these have gone unreported?
Should i add on with what we have experienced in Iraq, timor leste?Alot of what the SAF arent available in the media as our government alway practise a subtle approach in their foreign relations. For that reason, there are people who think that we are wusses that perhap faint at first sight of blood.