SAF personnel come to school give talk to JC boys..
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
You people realise thats what the Gurkhas are there for? To do a job because they have no vested interests in this country?
Also If ClaT is talking about hiring an army, you realise nobody is going to let u hire their national army right? Closest we've come are the Gurkhas. If you're hiring anyone it'd be PMCs and that'd probably mean people like Blackwater.
Then again xtreyier I think u're a bit naive when you say our local police personnel act with compassion towards their own citizen. Just because they aren't going to murder you in cold blood for greenbucks doesn't mean they're compassionate. It just means they haven't got what it takes, hardly makes them Mother Theresa.
heard of the French foreign legions? they hire foreigners to fight for them, in exchange for citizenship. the USA also do it too, as i recall from a Times article. the male immigrants sign up with the US army to fight in Iraq, allowing his family to gain a US citizenship.and regarding the creation of jobs and boosting of our economy with foreigners. well, IMO, we need definitely need foreigners, but certainly not an influx of them. of singapore's population of 4.5 million, there are 1million foreigners currently in singapore. 1 million ppl is alot, seriously, when you consider that all of these 1m people are here to work and study. whereas, we have elderly and the young in the remaining 3.5m local population.
so, it can be said that foreigners took up a significant number of places in school and at the workplace.
and do we need so many foreigners? sure, they do work in factories, etc. but what is the point of having a foreign owned factory staffed with foreign workers? You may as well build the factory in China, Malaysia etc. no need to import both the factory and its workers to singapore.
our service industry, originally intended for locals, when we begin the transition from a manufacturing economy to a service industry, is also fast saturated with foreigners. just go to any food court, and you will see that it is almost 70% staffed with foreigners. i see foreigners selling everything from western food, indian food to laksa. i even saw PRC selling roti pratas. that's like so wth....
and are their presence really helping singaporeans to boost our standard of living? we don't have many local firms around to hire our specialist university graduates .e.g. engineers, researchers. most of the job offers in these sectors come from MNCs, who chose singapore because of our strategic location and highly educated english speaking workforce. low wage is secondary. if they are really looking out for low wage worker, they probably won't even consider singapore in the first place.
but now, the situation is that these MNCs realise that cheap foreign workers are abundant in singapore, and work permits are very easy to obtain for foreign workers. so we are seeing MNCs bringing in their own foreign workers to singapore to work, bypassing locals.
a significant example is engineering. the supply of cheap indian and chinese engineers have depreciate the pay of engineers to peanuts, less than 1/3 the pay of what engineers can get in Australia. is it healthy competition we are talking about?
IMO, what singapore needs is citizens, not PRs. we should not even subsidise PRs and foreigners in our university at all. $6000 a yr is dirt cheap, for any overseas education. unless these people take up citizenship, we should allow them to leech off us, jumping ship after they extract all they could from our economy. How many of these PR actually stay on in Singapore as citizens? few. too few, in fact.
what we want is a citizenship of diverse backgrounds. we don't need that many not-so-permanent Permanent Residents around.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Hahaha. Singapore might have a good military (but personally, I don't think so), but lets just say, don't be too arrogant. Why? 3 words: Yom Kippur War.
Please share with us why do you think we dont not have a good military force in respect to the threats that we may face, perhaps we can learn from you. -
Originally posted by deathmaster:
heard of the French foreign legions? they hire foreigners to fight for them, in exchange for citizenship. the USA also do it too, as i recall from a Times article. the male immigrants sign up with the US army to fight in Iraq, allowing his family to gain a US citizenship.
I'm sorry. Thats PRECISELY why Gurkhas have to leave singapore at age 42 and cannot take up citizenship at all. In case of a situation where martial law is in effect, you cannot have people who have a vested interest in singapore in charge of maintaining martial law.As for hiring a national army, I'm not wrong as well. USA isn't going to let u hire their military just like that, not unless you're Saudi Arabia and have oil.
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:
Please share with us why do you think we dont not have a good military force in respect to the threats that we may face, perhaps we can learn from you.
Have you met the regulars within the SAF? Half of them are so inept and bloated within their own egos. Life for them is an endless series of exploiting conscripts in doing work which the regulars are supposed to be doing in exchange for accepting the proverbial "King's shilling", having some meeting or another at the officer's mess, generally putting on a big show. No doubt the other half are good, hardworking people, but when half your force is full of people who only signed up because even the factories do not want them on their packing lines, and who do not even want to do the bare minimum for an honest pay, how well do you think they'll perform in times of an actual war? -
Originally posted by 4Justice:
I'm sorry. Thats PRECISELY why Gurkhas have to leave singapore at age 42 and cannot take up citizenship at all. In case of a situation where martial law is in effect, you cannot have people who have a vested interest in singapore in charge of maintaining martial law.As for hiring a national army, I'm not wrong as well. USA isn't going to let u hire their military just like that, not unless you're Saudi Arabia and have oil.
If what you say about using people from other country to maintain martial law is correct, there should be lots of country using this form of mercenary army.Care to name some of the countries that uses foreign military army to maintain order? Thailand (Recent Overthrow of Thaksin)? China (Tiananmen)? US (During Hurricane Katrina)?
If you have ALL the people having a vested interest in Singapore, and all of them are against the current government, the use of citizens from another country to exert military influence is equivalent to regimes like N. Korea and Burma.
Morever your association of martial law with vested interest of citizens is abit skewed.
Martial law is the system of rules that takes effect when the military takes control of the normal administration of justice.
Martial law is sometimes imposed during wars or occupations in the absence of any other civil government. Examples of this form of military rule include Germany and Japan after World War II or the American South during the early stages of Reconstruction. In addition it is used by governments to enforce their rule, for example after a coup d'état (Thailand 2006), when threatened by popular protests (Tiananmen Square protests of 1989), or to crack down on the opposition (Poland 1981). Martial law can also be declared in cases of major natural disasters; however most countries use a different legal construct, such as a "state of emergency".
In many countries, martial law imposes particular rules, one of which is curfew. Often, under this system, the administration of justice is left to a military tribunal, called a court-martial. The suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is likely to occur.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
The only use for a mercenary army (with no association with citizens) is to quell rebellion and protest, when such circumstances do arise, the government should do the right thing and step down, let a better government takeover instead of exasperatedly clinging on to power with a foreign military force.
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Maruizio13: you simply forget the race factor and its history in singapore.
Gurkhas are here because:
1) Chinese police/soldiers fire on Malay/Indian rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
2) Malay police/soldiers fire on Indian/Chinese rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
3) Indian police/soldiers fire on Chinese/Malay rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
Regardless of whether it was just a coincidence that someone doing their job had to fire on someone else coincidentially from another race, you can be sure that the bad press would be put to good use, hence the reason Gurkhas are in SINGAPORE. At no time did I ever mention that what I say applies to any other country besides SINGAPORE.
Appreciate the trouble you went to to dig all that up, but the explanation is much simpler.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Maruizio13: you simply forget the race factor and its history in singapore.
Gurkhas are here because:
1) Chinese police/soldiers fire on Malay/Indian rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
2) Malay police/soldiers fire on Indian/Chinese rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
3) Indian police/soldiers fire on Chinese/Malay rioters. What do you think the consequences would be?
Regardless of whether it was just a coincidence that someone doing their job had to fire on someone else coincidentially from another race, you can be sure that the bad press would be put to good use, hence the reason Gurkhas are in SINGAPORE. At no time did I ever mention that what I say applies to any other country besides SINGAPORE.
Appreciate the trouble you went to to dig all that up, but the explanation is much simpler.
1-3) But essentially, the police force is multi-racial and not according to you ALL Chinese, ALL Malay or ALL Indian. If there be discharge of firearms (be it Chinese, Indian or Malay), an independent judicial system should also be appointed to discover if it was racially motivated or was there justification. If so racially motivated, pass the appropriate sentence to the offender.
The police force act as a unit devoid of racial branding, when you talk of the police force you do not attach a race to it.
Take for example, the not too recent issues of Indian rioters in Malaysia, was there racial tension when a multi racial Malaysian force took actions.
When happen to our decades of national education to build a multi racial society based on justice and equality? Was the government's plan of building a national identity a failure?
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
1-3) But essentially, the police force is multi-racial and not according to you ALL Chinese, ALL Malay or ALL Indian.
The police force act as a unit devoid of racial branding, when you talk of the police force you do not attach a race to it.
Take for example, the not too recent issues of Indian rioters in Malaysia, was there racial tension when a multi racial Malaysian force took actions.
When happen to our decades of national education to build a multi racial society based on justice and equality? Was the government's plan of building a national identity a failure?
if you think we have already built a race or religion blind society, or that it exists anywhere in the world right now ....
you're either blind, naive, or deluded ...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
if you think we have already built a race or religion blind society, or that it exists anywhere in the world right now ....
you're either blind, naive, or deluded ...
i am neither blind, naive or deluded, like you.
would welcome you to discuss if you have the aptitude to do so, else save the unsubstantiated insults for yourself.
perhaps you do not have the ability to discuss, so you devolve into insults to voice your opposition.
seriously, i would love to hear your ideas if you have any.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
i am neither blind, naive or deluded, like you.
would welcome you to discuss if you have the aptitude to do so, else save the unsubstantiated insults for yourself.
perhaps you do not have the ability to discuss, so you devolve into insults to voice your opposition.
seriously, i would love to hear your ideas if you have any.
trying to give it back good, but failing to eh ? don't thump your keyboard so hard .....
kid, I shall say it again, if you think we have built a race or religion blind society, or that it exists anywhere in the world ...
you're either blind, naive, or deluded ...
now try to prove otherwise by showing me one ...
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if what 4Justice said is true and Fatum acquiesced, then it is imperative that other western and non-western countries maintain a foreign military force to maintain the racial segmentation.
no?
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Originally posted by Fatum:
trying to give it back good, but failing to eh ? don't thump your keyboard so hard .....
kid, I shall say it again, if you think we have built a race or religion blind society, or that it exists anywhere in the world ...
you're either blind, naive, or deluded ...
now try to prove otherwise by showing me one ...
Prove to me that US being racially segmented needs a foreign military presence like the Gurkhas to maintain law and order.
Now prove me wrong.
Nobody is questioning that racial divide does not exist, but does a government need to use foreign military power to bridge that divide; or does the government have ulterior motives behind it.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Prove to me that US being racially segmented needs a foreign military presence like the Gurkhas to maintain law and order.
Now prove me wrong.
do you know what you've written previously kid ? ... you were implying that we were already a race and religion blind society .....
now I say that's hogwash ... and that it doesn't exist, not here, not anywhere in the world ........
so ... do you still want to persist that it exists, or not ? .... or do you still want to persist in trying to talk chickens into dogs ? ...
perhaps you've forgotten about rodney king and the race riots in the US, or the oldham riots in the UK ? ... or have forgotten the recents riots up north was really about race, religion, and discrimination ? ...
idealism is one thing ... but it would help if you get out and look around the real world every now and then .....
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
1-3) But essentially, the police force is multi-racial and not according to you ALL Chinese, ALL Malay or ALL Indian.
The police force act as a unit devoid of racial branding, when you talk of the police force you do not attach a race to it.
Take for example, the not too recent issues of Indian rioters in Malaysia, was there racial tension when a multi racial Malaysian force took actions.
When happen to our decades of national education to build a multi racial society based on justice and equality? Was the government's plan of building a national identity a failure?
I'm sorry. but yes, you are naive. The purpose of having Gurkhas is to prevent any opportunistic persons or organisations from being able to use the incident to fan the flames further. Our government is well known for being kiasu aka overkill(witness the 40 riot police to deal with 4 peaceful protesters incident awhile back) so has it occured to your mind that the way they think is different to yours? Employing Gurkhas for the "in case" scenarios is exactly what our govt would do.And honestly, in an environment that is emotionally charged, do you think people would be as logical, given our history with racial issues? Do you not think someone would try to take advantage of any small incident to fan the flames of chaos? Larger incidents have arose from smaller incidents. The police force may have no racial branding, but do you think everyone remembers that and do you think agents of chaos would pass up an opportunity to show otherwise?
Lets keep the discussion to Singapore. I already said everything I talk about, pertains to ONLY Singapore. Stop going off topic.
You overestimate the effectiveness of national education and the govt's efforts. Everything in Singapore, in case you haven't noticed, is about the wayang, not what goes on underneath. If you don't believe that what I've said is the real reason the Gurkhas are here, find someone in the know and ask.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
if what 4Justice said is true and Fatum acquiesced, then it is imperative that other western and non-western countries maintain a foreign military force to maintain the racial segmentation.
no?
No. Singapore is Singapore. PAP doesn't run USA or any other western or non-western country. Pls keep he discussion on Singapore since we have a host of unique factors and history that has an impact our the current govt philosophy and governance that differs from other governments.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
do you know what you've written previously kid ? ... you were implying that we were already a race and religion blind society .....
now I say that's hogwash ... and that it doesn't exist, not here, not anywhere in the world ........
so ... do you still want to persist that it exists, or not ? .... or do you still want to persist in trying to talk chickens into dogs ? ...
perhaps you've forgotten about rodney king and the race riots in the US, or the oldham riots in the UK ? ... or have forgotten the recents riots up north was really about race, religion, and discrimination ? ...
idealism is one thing ... but it would help if you get out and look around the real world every now and then .....
Please quote what I write.I need to make some typo correction.
"When happened to our decades of national education to build a multi racial society based on justice and equality? Was the government's plan of building a national identity a failure?"
So during this racial riots, did the US used any foreign military force to suppress the riots?
Finally, did the riot end end with a desired outcome?
If what you say is indeed true, then we should be using our police force or military for operational duties, it will incur racial riots. Like what 4Justice pointed out earlier, what if a Chinese police officer shoots a Malay civilian. Maybe we should just scrap the national police force and military in favour of a Gurkha police and army? FYI, the Rodney King riot was committed by operational police force like our current police force.
One should not associate a misunderstood term and claim victory, when the opponent has not stated that idealism. It would help if you read and comprehend.
My point is, racism does exist, but do we need a foreign military presence to help us maintain the racial divide, or does this foreign military presence have ulterior use.
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Nobody is questioning that racial divide does not exist, but does a government need to use foreign military power to bridge that divide; or does the government have ulterior motives behind it.
okie ... now suddenly, race divides do exist .....
fine .... so, what do YOU think is the ulterior motives behind it ? ...
you know, I find your ulterior motives and conspiracy theories in here very entertaining sometimes .....
you and some of the other fellows have the most interesting stories, it's like listening to kopitiam unkers in the comfort of my room ...
I particularly like that thread about how Malaysia enjoys more freedom and democracy than us .... that was a real classic ....
keep it coming ! ...
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
No. Singapore is Singapore. PAP doesn't run USA or any other western or non-western country. Pls keep he discussion on Singapore since we have a host of unique factors and history that has an impact our the current govt philosophy and governance that differs from other governments.
So no other country maintains such a foreign military force?You mean to say other western and non-western country do not have racial divide?
What unique factors make our racial segmentation differ from other western or non-western country that makes us different from others? Care to elaborate?
How does Singapore's government philosophy and governance impinge on the racial divide that makes us different from others? Care to elaborate?
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
So no other country maintains such a foreign military force?You mean to say other western and non-western country do not have racial divide?
What unique factors make our racial segmentation differ from other western or non-western country that makes us different from others? Care to elaborate?
How does Singapore's government philosophy and governance impinge on the racial divide that makes us different from others? Care to elaborate?
UK is probably the only other country that maintains Gurkhas, but not for the same reasons as Sg. Every year 2000 potential recruits are picked and trained in the UK, after which 140 of them are sent to Sg as part of an agreement Sg has with UK.
Other countries western or non-western may have its racial divides, but they do not have the PAP running them. Not everybody thinks or acts in the same way, so theres no point in trying to nullify a FACTUAL reason by raising examples without any control variables. It's like trying to pick the best coffee and including tea in your selection.
I do not care to elaborate because most of the facts can be found in history books. I see no need to spoon feed you just because you haven't actually tried to go and do a discerning study of the differences yourself and am just waiting to be spoonfed. If you want I can point u in the right direction with one of the most important facts of all: Sg is run by a certain Mr Lee.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
Nobody is questioning that racial divide does not exist, but does a government need to use foreign military power to bridge that divide; or does the government have ulterior motives behind it.
okie ... now suddenly, race divides do exist .....
fine .... so, what do YOU think is the ulterior motives behind it ? ...
you know, I find your ulterior motives and conspiracy theories in here very entertaining sometimes .....
you and some of the other fellows have the most interesting stories, it's like listening to kopitiam unkers in the comfort of my room ...
I particularly like that thread about how Malaysia enjoys more freedom and democracy than us .... that was a real classic ....
keep it coming ! ...
Maybe you can quote me from my previous post that purport to state what you claim? Instead of turning into another Gazelle and put words in my mouth.
I am still waiting for your response to my previous post regarding issues you brought up with Rodney King Racial Riots.
The Rodney King Racial Riots was committed by ordinary police force on duty (like our Singapore police force). So do you mean that if US had an arsenal of Gurkhas at it's disposal, the racial riot will not happen?
White Policemen beats Rodney King, racial riots begin, then US President sends in Gurkhas to control (kill) the rioters? So no racial riot happened?
Please use some of those gray mater in between your ears. SPF Chinese Police officer shoots Malay civilian out of racial spite, racial riots start, Gurkhas send in to control the rioters, therefore no racial riots occured.
The only way such cases won't happen is when you get a full time Gurkha police and army.I know you are in a foreign country and crack is widely available, but do spare a thought for yourself and your friends.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Maybe we should just scrap the national police force and military in favour of a Gurkha police and army?
That would obviously be impratical, because it would require a massive renegotiation of the current agreement between UK and SG. Understand that the Gurkhas are there for a "worst case" scenario, and if they have to be deployed in that capacity, SG is probably in some serious deep sh1t.And like I said, that is the actual reason for our use of Gurkhas, whether you like it or not, and regardless of how much or how strongly u debate against it. Facts are facts, check with someone in the know like I said, instead of coming up with all these various hypothesis that have no bearing on FACTS.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
.White Policemen beats Rodney King, racial riots begin, then US President sends in Gurkhas to control (kill) the rioters? So no racial riot happened?
Please use some of those gray mater in between your ears. White policeman beats Rodney King, racial riots happen, US pres sends in Gurkhas, then perhaps the severity of the racial riots might have been much less, even if it might not be prevented.
Unfortunately, the US can't send in Gurkhas because they have NO agreement with UK over the allotment of Gurkhas, and the Gurkhas are fanatically loyal to the Brits so would probably not agree to a similiar arrangement with the USA or indeed ANY other country.
Also, the USA doesn't like outside help, even if it means worsening the situation. Example? Iraq, Round II. "wot? wait for UN? nah..."
Understand that, Sg govt having a kiasu mindset, prefers to go "overkill" on it's precautionary measures. US govt is not Sg govt, however they do have overinflated egos and hence would reject help. You have to grasp how different people in different countries think.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
UK is probably the only other country that maintains Gurkhas, but not for the same reasons as Sg. Every year 2000 potential recruits are picked and trained in the UK, after which 140 of them are sent to Sg as part of an agreement Sg has with UK.
Other countries western or non-western may have its racial divides, but they do not have the PAP running them. Not everybody thinks or acts in the same way, so theres no point in trying to nullify a FACTUAL reason by raising examples without any control variables. It's like trying to pick the best coffee and including tea in your selection.
I do not care to elaborate because most of the facts can be found in history books. I see no need to spoon feed you just because you haven't actually tried to go and do a discerning study of the differences yourself and am just waiting to be spoonfed. If you want I can point u in the right direction with one of the most important facts of all: Sg is run by a certain Mr Lee.
So is the Gurkha army in UK the private army of PM Gordon Brown?
You seemed to have skimped the question raised by me. What makes a rule by P4P different from ALL the other countries in the world? You mooted the point to which you have privy, that it's the philosophical and governance doctrine that makes us different to others in the whole wide world. But when I asked that you give credence to your points raised, you shy away. If you raised a point, surely you must have evidence to support your point, or was it all conjectures a wisp of smoke (hopefully not the smoke someone is smoking).
Originally posted by 4Justice:
"No. Singapore is Singapore. PAP doesn't run USA or any other western or non-western country. Pls keep he discussion on Singapore since we have a host of unique factors and history that has an impact our the current govt philosophy and governance that differs from other governments."
If you can't even name the factors, I am doubtful if it even exist.
So what has this certain Mr. Lee got to do with racial segmentation and Gurkhas?
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Maybe you can quote me from my previous post that purport to state what you claim? Instead of turning into another Gazelle and put words in my mouth.
I am still waiting for your response to my previous post regarding issues you brought up with Rodney King Racial Riots.
The Rodney King Racial Riots was committed by ordinary police force on duty (like our Singapore police force). So do you mean that if US had an arsenal of Gurkhas at it's disposal, the racial riot will not happen?
White Policemen beats Rodney King, racial riots begin, then US President sends in Gurkhas to control (kill) the rioters? So no racial riot happened?
Please use some of those gray mater in
between your ears. SPF Chinese Police officer shoots Malay civilian out of racial spite, racial riots start, Gurkhas send in to control the rioters, therefore no racial riots occured.
The only way such cases won't happen is when
you get a full time Gurkha police and army.I know you are in a foreign country and crack is widely available, but do spare a thought for yourself and your friends.
again, I suggest you get out behind your desk and get out and take a look around the real world every now and then .....
to say that if we are right, then everytime a chinese police officer does something to a malay chap will trigger a race riot etc etc, is such an over simplification of things that you're either grasping at straws to win a loosing verbal fight or it really betrays a very simple, naive thinking process.
just because race riots doesn't happen every day when a "multi-cultural" police force is deployed on the streets doesn't mean, as heng pointed out, that it won't happen in the heat of a racially charged incident ..... and that's what we have them for ... and that's why you don't see gurkhas deployed everyday for police duties ....
since your slant towards the opposition is well known .... why don't you just spit out right now, what conspiracy theories you really have wrt gurkhas ..... c'mon, entertain me a bit .... sunday morning's boring ...
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did the army kor kor touch u down there?