Feeding our babies to the economy monster
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First principles were stood on their heads. Economic growth and social progress did not serve human beings. On the contrary, the primary function of citizens was to fuel economic growth - a weird reversal of roles.
Sad to say, now the situation is really system first, human second.
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A caged bird do not lay any eggs.
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Originally posted by mistyblue:
A caged bird do not lay any eggs.
hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...cows r caged too... to pump milk.
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Originally posted by Rednano:
hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...cows r caged too... to pump milk.
And then slaughtered when they can't produce milk anymore?
Instead of letting them graze in the fields for the rest of their remaining years.
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Originally posted by mistyblue:
A caged bird do not lay any eggs.
Theoratically, by your logic, the entire human race are analogically 'caged birds' as well, for they lived not individually, but answer and bound by specific constitutional laws as agreed upon by their civilisation.
Some 'birds' would be caged with guilded frames, and some with jail steel bars. Yet they lay eggs too. And are equally caged.
The only way to be free from cages are to live on your own, without a care to anyone. With that it will mean no one will have to care for you as well.
So do you honestly wish to be a freed bird to face the elements on your own, for yourself and your followers if any? And if you are more than one, with followers, wouldnt you set up rules too, or have no rules whereby each is equal game to each other?
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i think it should be whether one is willing to sacrifice for their children.
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There are people who rave and rant and complain.
Then there are those that try to persuade you to see their point of view, hoping to convert your way of thinking to theirs.
Interesting.
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Originally posted by JJxJJ:
i think it should be whether one is willing to sacrifice for their children.
well good luck increasing the birth rate without work life balance
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Originally posted by hisoka:
Just wondering, if they are criticising that the government wants singaporeans to have more kids just to fuel the economy and sustain growth/ the society. Then what do they think other governments are thinking of when they try to or want to increase the birth rate?
You don't seem to get the point. What they are trying to say is that Singaporeans are not reproducing because they don't feel they are treated like human beings. While other govts try to increase birth rate also for economic reasons they do treat their people as human beings with all the inalienable rights. -
Parents will sacrifice for their children. That is the beauty of parenthood.
But the parent can scrimp and save .. eat porridge and maggie mee everyday. Wear clothings from thrift stores.
But which parent will want to see their own children do the same they did ?
Do you .. as a parent wants to see your children eat porridge everyday ? Do you want to see your children dressed up like a beggar ?
Do you as a parent wants your own child to come home to a empty house everyday after school ?
Answer to the above : NO. because parents are responsible for their children's well being.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
to have babies in a family is a private matter
To have a substainable population in terms of economy makes it a national direction and objective.
If there is no national interest in having babies, then on wat grounds does the gov have in implementing baby bonuses etc which is about private matters
About a conducive environment for a baby, it largely depend on your expectation. It is strange tat the poorest nations have the highest birth rate while rich nations have low birth rate. Mostly it is probably due to different expectation on wat the child should get
And stop at 2 is a policy stopped probably 20 years ago. Changing and modifying of policies over time is a sign of strength, not weakness
Different culture.. different social system.
In poor countries.. infant mortality rate are high.. meaning many babies do not survive their first year after birth.
They do not have a retirement system like CPF or IRA. So they depend on their children to take care of them when they are old, much like Singapore in the older days.. that's why our great/grandparents have so many kids.
So the more kids they have.. the higher chances of having more children survive .. thus the more secure their old age.
With more children.. parents will have a different perspective of life.
Back then.. even children are dispensable... because they have so many anyway.
Now.. in our modern time.. because parents have only 2-3 , children are precious... so the mindset has changed.
Back in those days.. children start working at a very young age.. some as early as 12-13. Hardwork and dilligence was all they need to succeed in life.
Nowadays.. children needs to be educated well into their 20s.. some even more..to ensure better survivals and financial independence.
The financial burden on the parents are much longer and much higher in current times.
I wonder why our gahmen cannot understand this... perhaps they are too set in their old ways ?? Their thinking are not catching up with times..... perhaps it is time to retire the old ministers .. and put in new blood.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Theoratically, by your logic, the entire human race are analogically 'caged birds' as well, for they lived not individually, but answer and bound by specific constitutional laws as agreed upon by their civilisation.
Some 'birds' would be caged with guilded frames, and some with jail steel bars. Yet they lay eggs too. And are equally caged.
The only way to be free from cages are to live on your own, without a care to anyone. With that it will mean no one will have to care for you as well.
So do you honestly wish to be a freed bird to face the elements on your own, for yourself and your followers if any? And if you are more than one, with followers, wouldnt you set up rules too, or have no rules whereby each is equal game to each other?
Havn't you heard of "Free Range Chicken" ? LOL....They taste better and leaner too !!!
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Originally posted by Rednano:
hens at chicken farms r caged too... and lay eggs...cows r caged too... to pump milk.
Yes they lay eggs..but those eggs are not fertilized.Caged cows falls under animal abuse.
Do you want to be abused and caged like the animals ?
Think about it , ya ?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Thanks for your forthright reply.
Written are my own words and not some 'propaganda' as you suspect.
We had been made pragmatic for so long due to circumstances, that some may lost their idealism and the very purpose of existance. My take on the birth issue is to not to be bothered by whatever politics or economics come into play, rather, be the person you want to be.
Life has it ups and down, and no person is free from the dictates of fate. We Singaporeans plan too much, and life doesnt goes very much to plan. But if we have an ideal and believe in it, it will be our own compass to guide us through life's vaguries.
It is senseless to blame the State(our society) for low birth rates, when that decision is fully ours to make, a natural instinct of humanity. No one goes to jail for making such decisions. The only person who actually suffers, is not the State( our society), but us, in our old age, doom to loneliness when we have no issue of our own.
Perhaps, the State had been rather clumsy in its attempts to prove the fruitlessness of life without children, believing that we are pragmatic beings, thus use statistical evidences to show that loneliness of old age and its finacial situation to fellow citizens.
But nonetheless, our country has a heart, and the capacity to offer a good and fruitful life to each and every citizen to have a family, based on one's merit, with full opportunities for all, white or black, rich or poor. And this is not an issue for political play, for the family unit comes first even before the nation. Without the family unit ( and i don't in all seriousness mean the Lee family) , there can be no nation. Mankind would have been extinct.
Interesting opinions here. The way I summarize this thread -
1> Govt wants to encourage more babies to support its economic expansion.
2> Singaporeans feel that the environment is not conducive and do not wish to have babies here.
3> Govt thinks of an alternative and imports "babies" in the form of foreign talent.
4> Foreign talent competes with Singaporeans for work.
5> Singaporeans are not happy with foreign talent competing with them for "rice" when they are hard pressed themselves.
7> (This has not happened yet) Govt addresses the problem that the environment here is not conducive for babies and introduce welfare to make it conducive. Singaporeans have more babies. Less foreign talent is needed. More welfare costs more money thus increase taxes for annual incomes that are considered affluent maybe? And voila! ...... akan datang
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Originally posted by kilua:
well good luck increasing the birth rate without work life balance
Propaganda is often derogatorically associated with evil regimes that seek to impose a political will against the good of society, as seen from mankind's history such as germany's 3rd reich, stalinist russia, mao's china.But what i had proposed are nothing more than philosophies for the ideal society practiced by greeks and the western culture eons ago, mix with traditional eastern thoughts for the well being of a society. I am no Plato or Confucius. I am just a humble nobody, an ordinary citizen.
I do not seek to impose my beliefs upon anyone, but only that they consider the idealism and realities one faces with regards to the birth issue over what i had written.
Your concept of 'work life balance' is not a tantra that can be used for all situations in reality. If you are working in the govt services, you will have my fullest support for a worklife balance - with all the benefits parents should entitle such as 3 mths maternity leaves, 5 day week, allowances, etc, because your employers are none other than us - the taxpayers, members of our society and you are one of us, and we all want the best for each and everyone of citizens.
However, if you are working in the private sector, then you would have to be fair to your employers. It is their private funds that is used to create employment, get business to earn a living.
If they have to employ workers with such benefits - 3mths leave, 5 day week, no overtime, no deadlines, no pressures, there would be hardly profitable or productive to stay in business and will even fold up in time!
So how should private companies 'balance' your work life, when their very own survival depends on your regular attendence?
Another angle to look at private sector companies is that - should you dedicate your life to the company, getting promoted and elevated above your peers, and given all the material comfort you would want - by the time, if you are fortunate, after 30 years helping your boss gain fame and riches, you will have to retire.
All you will get is a handshake, a gold watch, and a thank you. Is this worth the sacrifice of giving up a family life with children for? You could have been embracing your grandchildren instead, whom will give you happiness and are priceless, worth beyond more than a miserable gold watch and a handshake, coupled with living the rest of your years with childless loneliness, watching others' children play, but none of your own.
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family first, career second...
not many singaporeans even dare to think about it, let alone practise it. that having said, if you dare, you are then going against the grain of how the entire singapore machinery is set-up to function.
in singapore especially, we are living in a paradox which the government has inextricably got all its citizens in and now do not have a real solution out of it.
more babies to contribute to the nation economically? unfortunately, they are on opposing ends.
but i will be the first to admit this is one tough nut to crack.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Propaganda is often derogatorically associated with evil regimes that seek to impose a political will against the good of society, as seen from mankind's history such as germany's 3rd reich, stalinist russia, mao's china.But what i had proposed are nothing more than philosophies for the ideal society practiced by greeks and the western culture eons ago, mix with traditional eastern thoughts for the well being of a society. I am no Plato or Confucius. I am just a humble nobody, an ordinary citizen.
I do not seek to impose my beliefs upon anyone, but only that they consider the idealism and realities one faces with regards to the birth issue over what i had written.
Your concept of 'work life balance' is not a tantra that can be used for all situations in reality. If you are working in the govt services, you will have my fullest support for a worklife balance - with all the benefits parents should entitle such as 3 mths maternity leaves, 5 day week, allowances, etc, because your employers are none other than us - the taxpayers, members of our society and you are one of us, and we all want the best for each and everyone of citizens.
However, if you are working in the private sector, then you would have to be fair to your employers. It is their private funds that is used to create employment, get business to earn a living.
If they have to employ workers with such benefits - 3mths leave, 5 day week, no overtime, no deadlines, no pressures, there would be hardly profitable or productive to stay in business and will even fold up in time!
So how should private companies 'balance' your work life, when their very own survival depends on your regular attendence?
Another angle to look at private sector companies is that - should you dedicate your life to the company, getting promoted and elevated above your peers, and given all the material comfort you would want - by the time, if you are fortunate, after 30 years helping your boss gain fame and riches, you will have to retire.
All you will get is a handshake, a gold watch, and a thank you. Is this worth the sacrifice of giving up a family life with children for? You could have been embracing your grandchildren instead, whom will give you happiness and are priceless, worth beyond more than a miserable gold watch and a handshake, coupled with living the rest of your years with childless loneliness, watching others' children play, but none of your own.
I agree that the usual association with propaganda is not good, but the actually definition of propaganda is very different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
Propaganda is a concerted set of messages aimed at influencing the opinions or behaviors of large numbers of people. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense presents information in order to influence its audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the cognitive narrative of the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda.
Yes, if work life balance is what you have defined, it is not workable. But many Countries/Companies have better work life balance. Toyota, one of the world class manufacturer under an American CEO, practise work life balance. Employees are not allowed to work more than 48 hours a week unless a written approval is obtained from the CEO.
How often are employees wasting time surfing the net and doing non work related tasks in office? My brother and his girlfriend who both worked in US found the work culture very different. You are free to come and leave the office anytime as long as the tasks are completed. There are urgent times where he works 12 hours a day to complete his tasks , but usually he is given a lot of leeway with regards to working hours. However in the same company, Singapore branch, hours are long long long.
As I said, good luck promoting birthrates without work life balance. Were there issues of work life balance in Confucius/Plato’s time? Did Confucius/Plato say there is more to life to work? Didnt Plato say "A Life not examined is not worth living?" How are we going to examine our lives if there is no work life balance?
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, where is the love??? can $ buy love?If the leaders in Sinkapore think $ can buy love to bring up a family,it is no different from animals,that why I called them Gods!!!!
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Originally posted by pearlie27:
You don't seem to get the point. What they are trying to say is that Singaporeans are not reproducing because they don't feel they are treated like human beings. While other govts try to increase birth rate also for economic reasons they do treat their people as human beings with all the inalienable rights.
i did get the point but i was addressing a side issue on work life balance. -
if u talk about quality of life and number of hours worked, I suggest u talk with the boss of your company about it. It is they who give u the hours to work and it is your colleagues who work OT giving to the pressure. If your boss, like toyota or some US companies who wanna give the employees a good quality of life, the gov is not gonna force them to stop. Tis is all about your job and the gov cannot interfere much into it. U don't like your job environment, then I guess u should try to find a lazy job with little things and probably low pay instead.
If u talk about propaganda, religion and confucianism r classified as propaganda themselves.
Now.. in our modern time.. because parents have only 2-3 , children are precious... so the mindset has changed.
Back in those days.. children start working at a very young age.. some as early as 12-13. Hardwork and dilligence was all they need to succeed in life.
Nowadays.. children needs to be educated well into their 20s.. some even more..to ensure better survivals and financial independence.
The financial burden on the parents are much longer and much higher in current times.
Then wat do u suggest the gov to do ? If they promote people to give birth to babies by giving incredible benefit, r they fair to people who choose to remain single or childless (given the tax tat support tis benefit comes from all sector) ? If the gov want to change the people mentality and portray happy family lives to promote population growth in a soft way, u guys complained tis is gov propaganda. If they don't ask u guys to give birth and import people into the society, u guys complain tis is anti-nationalism and they r here snatching your rice bowls. If they do not do anything at all, the economy becomes saturated and will decline and u guys will complain economic woes.
Tis is really a difficult problem
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
if u talk about quality of life and number of hours worked, I suggest u talk with the boss of your company about it. It is they who give u the hours to work and it is your colleagues who work OT giving to the pressure. If your boss, like toyota or some US companies who wanna give the employees a good quality of life, the gov is not gonna force them to stop. Tis is all about your job and the gov cannot interfere much into it. U don't like your job environment, then I guess u should try to find a lazy job with little things and probably low pay instead.
If u talk about propaganda, religion and confucianism r classified as propaganda themselves.
Then wat do u suggest the gov to do ? If they promote people to give birth to babies by giving incredible benefit, r they fair to people who choose to remain single or childless (given the tax tat support tis benefit comes from all sector) ? If the gov want to change the people mentality and portray happy family lives to promote population growth in a soft way, u guys complained tis is gov propaganda. If they don't ask u guys to give birth and import people into the society, u guys complain tis is anti-nationalism and they r here snatching your rice bowls. If they do not do anything at all, the economy becomes saturated and will decline and u guys will complain economic woes.
Tis is really a difficult problem
Thats right. So lets get the FTs to come to give birth lor -
Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Thats right. So lets get the FTs to come to give birth lorAnd the local Singaporeans not happy with the local working conditions can work in overseas for higher pay, better jobs prospects and work life balance loh... My brother and his girlfriend is already planning to work overseas next year.
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These days you walk along Orchard Road, you will notice that the level of Singaporeans' Chinese has gone up, while their proficiency in English has gone down, not that their level of English was any good in the beginning.
In another few generations, the national language of Singapore would be 普通� (Mandarin) and we would be annexed by China. We will address each other as �志 (comrade) instead of auntie, uncle, xiao didi, xiao mei mei.
This would be the new National Anthem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwDkWzK24ZE
ä¸å›½ä¸‡å²�!!!
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
These days you walk along Orchard Road, you will notice that the level of Singaporeans' Chinese has gone up, while their proficiency in English has gone down, not that their level of English was any good in the beginning.
In another few generations, the national language of Singapore would be 普通� (Mandarin) and we would be annexed by China. We will address each other as �志 (comrade) instead of auntie, uncle, xiao didi, xiao mei mei.
This would be the new National Anthem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwDkWzK24ZE
ä¸å›½ä¸‡å²�!!!
I don't want to be there to see it.
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Originally posted by Beautiful951:
I don't want to be there to see it.
I don't mind actually, makes not difference.One authoritarian regime to another authoritarian regime.
It would make Singapore more secure.
Think we should all practise singing 义勇军进行曲 (March of the Volunteers).