MM - Today’s younger generation does not understand all this
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
And what exactly is 'the point' am i missing? Or are you alluding that there is more to the disparity in income gaps between the wealthy and the poor?
This is not something that a statistical indicator can just be pulled out of the thin air and be claimed as an irrefutable fact, without looking deeper in the socia-economic strata of each nation which is vastly different for a homogenous apple to apple comparison.
You would only get entangled in the numerous pitfalls of never ending debates on each socia-economic issue.
Rather, if you want to compare our society's income gaps, i would suggest a reading up on our Dept of Statistics for relevant data, to support your thesis that there is indeed an income gap in Singapore.
But my view on this issue is that:-
a. ) To narrow the gap, Karl Marx vison is the best, with all drawing the same income with those in positions of responsibility drawing a slightly higher income, national wealth redistributed equally to all - leading to a stable society.
But we know how it ended up eventually.
b. ) USA from the 30s to the 60s experimented with high middle class. It suceeded, but after Vietnam war, it became everyman for himself/herself. The income gap grew wider each year till today, it is known as a winner society - winner takes all, the poor left to die on the wayside, to hell with social spending such as health care.
These are factual realities you have to acknowledge in place of 'statistical indexes'.
Singapore has chosen the USA of the 60s' path - high middle class. Till date, we had achieved an est.80% middle class drawing salaries between $3k to $5k /mth, with a wealthy class of only est 5% and a small poor group of below $3k a month(excluding commissions).
This is not an ideal society yet to the vision of Karl Marx, and can be improved further, but still, it is a remarkable achievement for a nation state with NO natural resources except its citizens.
Hail the Messiah....
Kindly enlighten why S'pore has chosen this path of the US and not those the likes of Switzerland, Norway or Denmark. (whose citizens are happier, Gini coeff lower and whose policies our govt studies)
As this is not my forte, I sincerely would like to hear your views.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Tat is a good sign. U have already acknowledge tat the gov is performing better than other countries and r demanding more by comparing with the tip top countries tat even beat US and England. Well if u wanna compare with strictly on GINI, maybe singapore GINI is indeed worse than them. However take note tat singapore is still fundamentally different from these countries in terms of resources and economy and therefore its GINI loses out
Of course we are better off than a lot other countries...but where do we go from here? We have to compare with first world nations, no matter how different our resources and economy structure is.Thanks and appreciate your inputs, nevertheless.
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Originally posted by parn:
Normal does NOT justify Rights and Wrongs.
You do know that there are more negative (incapable, lazy, retarded, defeated) people than positive people in this world, so unless you're one of the positive few, else you would certainly agree with the negative lot out there that MORE = Normal.
Good people are difficult to come by, and that includes Good friends.
Don't you agree?
There you go again. 'Big statements' coming from you.
Are you sure Singaporeans are enjoying quality living? Oh are you referring to those exparts, FTs and gahmans or ordinary Singaporeans?
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
My brain is very much intact and working, thank you very much.
I have compulsive evidence that one of your hobbies must be "selective reading". lol Right anwyay.....with regards to foreigners, I was referring to the excessive influx of unskilled foreigners...u mean u haven't understooded?
And creativity and rote learning..dude, it's not role learning as u think it is. These two terms are opposites. Nonono, we do not expect the govt to spoonfeed us...how can this be? We Chinese are an industrious lot. Put Koreans under one kind of system, u get poverty. Put it under the other, u get world brands like Samsung, Kia, Daewoo and Hyundai . The environment matters and it can't be done unless there's more democracy and opening up of the press.
Hmm....and pple like myself cannot survive outside of Sg? Ha thank u very much....I would like to refute that statement with a LOL.
Hot air! U remind me of a geyser spewing out of the earth's core but that's all there is to it.
I was using lappie and misread the word rote learning as role learning, my mistake. Sorry
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Poh, search singstat. singapore's dept of statistics. All the data is there
You know...it's better if you quote your exact source of info even if u have mentioned Singstats.According to this pc of info http://www.singstat.gov.sg/pubn/papers/people/op-s14.pdf (pg 6 of 14) and one will see that even up to the 80th decile, income per employed household member is still below $3000/mth.
What's more.....the part in bold below looks a little dubious.
Till date, we had achieved an est.80% middle class drawing salaries between $3k to $5k /mth, with a wealthy class of only est 5% and a small poor group of below $3k a month(excluding commissions).
And if u can, try digesting this piece of article by Leong Sze Hian http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/02/uniquely-singapore-%e2%80%93-f1-or-f9-income-statistics/. Gist being the stagflation of the lower and middle income classes which counters the view of LHL that with a growing economy, inflation can be beaten as incomes rise.
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Originally posted by Spartans:
There you go again. 'Big statements' coming from you.
Are you sure Singaporeans are enjoying quality living? Oh are you referring to those exparts, FTs and gahmans or ordinary Singaporeans?
Are Singaporeans not enjoying quality living?If not, then what do you think is considered quality living then?
Hmm...I didn't expect my statements would be too big for you.
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Originally posted by parn:
I was using lappie and misread the word rote learning as role learning, my mistake. Sorry
Sorry is a little too much for me to bear here.Your inputs are most welcome anytime. Thanks.
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Did u not mentioned the word debate first? Lol
And the pay I speak of is Captain's pay. You don't know what's happening, do u.
No deliberate misrepresentation on my end...not too sure about yours.
I am still waiting to be enlightened what other forms of data we may use to determine income gap besides the Gini. Much appreciated.
Captain? I certainly know not the game you play. I don't read minds. you only mentioned waiter and pilot, and sure didnt mention a chief steward type waiter against a captain pilot for an apple to apple type comparison which you so cherished, which is just one of many flaws of gini.Asking me for a form of data to determine income gap beside using gini is akin to asking me what form of energy to use beside oil. We know the existance of nuclear and solar, but are they the best means?
Similarly, there are other forms of data to determine income gaps, but are they the best? Please do not be childish and be stubborn. You yourself even admit there are flaws using gini. Any other data are not equally without any flaw. There is still no perfect system, but does that mean you should use flawed measures to prove your baised views?
I had already told you statistic are at best only references and not exact science. They are disputable and reliance on them are best taken with a pinch of salt and reality check. If statistics are exact science, then just by reliance on it, economic woes would not be in existance. But the sad fact is that economic woes are still present even with such data.
But by all means, hold on to your gini and see how many adherents you can convince. I am not stopping you. The critical issue and crux of the matter is - is there an income disparity in Singapore, a country of no natural resources except its people, or a self centred perception of envy that you cannot measure up to the wealthy in our society, which fortunately is based on merit - one's own sweat and toil after years.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Captain? I certainly know not the game you play. I don't read minds. you only mentioned waiter and pilot, and sure didnt mention a chief steward type waiter against a captain pilot for an apple to apple type comparison which you so cherished, which is just one of many flaws of gini.Asking me for a form of data to determine income gap beside using gini is akin to asking me what form of energy to use beside oil. We know the existance of nuclear and solar, but are they the best means?
Similarly, there are other forms of data to determine income gaps, but are they the best? Please do not be childish and be stubborn. You yourself even admit there are flaws using gini. Any other data are not equally without any flaw. There is still no perfect system, but does that mean you should use flawed measures to prove your baised views?
I had already told you statistic are at best only references and not exact science. They are disputable and reliance on them are best taken with a pinch of salt and reality check. If statistics are exact science, then just by reliance on it, economic woes would not be in existance. But the sad fact is that economic woes are still present even with such data.
But by all means, hold on to your gini and see how many adherents you can convince. I am not stopping you. The critical issue and crux of the matter is - is there an income disparity in Singapore, a country of no natural resources except its people, or a self centred perception of envy that you cannot measure up to the wealthy in our society, which fortunately is based on merit - one's own sweat and toil after years.
If u are really diligent enough, u would have researched the pay of waiters and pilots both here and in UK to verify my numbers. Plain obvious to me u didn't. I specifically mentioned $8k pounds and S$20k for pilot's pay. And research would have told u that $1k pounds and S$1k are basic waiter's pay.
Pilot v Waiter - Rich-Poor divide....Gini coeff. Straightforward, isn't it.
Ha and I openly admit my lack of expertise on this matter and asked u what other forms of data besides Gini is good and u use metaphors. It's common knowledge what other forms of energy there are besides oil but can we say the same for Gini alternatives?
U have posted before : "One just can't qoute on the gini coefficient alone, for there are many other factors and quantiles which needs to be accounted for."
Since u have proposed before that Gini alone cannot be used, then just plain tell me what other factors and quantiles which need to be accounted for and surely there must be something else which can support the evidence of income disparity among countries? I wanna learn too. I'm not even stubbornly holding on to Gini for dear life.
This is hardly even childish in the remotest sense of the word. I willing to listen and put my hand on my heart that I'm not playing any games with u.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
The critical issue and crux of the matter is - is there an income disparity in Singapore, a country of no natural resources except its people, or a self centred perception of envy that you cannot measure up to the wealthy in our society, which fortunately is based on merit - one's own sweat and toil after years.
I'm afraid u have yet to show ur source of info for an earlier post on income for the various social classes. (asked by Poh Ah Pak too)And I have also asked your esteemed opinion on why S'pore has decided to follow the US route and not those of Sweden, Norway and Switzerland (whose policies our govt studies).
Appreciate your inputs here. Thanks...
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
I'm afraid u have yet to show ur source of info for an earlier post on income for the various social classes. (asked by Poh Ah Pak too)And I have also asked your esteemed opinion on why S'pore has decided to follow the US route and not those of Sweden, Norway and Switzerland (whose policies our govt studies).
Appreciate your inputs here. Thanks...
Do not presume that i will run away from responding to you. You are not a challenge to me, or do i have the time for schoolyard challenges of which you seem to enjoy playing despite your protestations.
Go enrol in classes. If you don't have the funds for it, you can apply to CDC for help.
The department of statistics has all the info you need for our economic and social data. It is easy to understand, and you will just need to do some homework on it. Don't expect everyone here to spoonfeed you. Didn't we all here say we don't like to be spoonfed?
Nation states look on and follow the ones whom are successful and is a powerhouse in this world. After WWII, and the subsequent following years, USSR and the USA were the major centres of influence. Whether Swiss, Swedish, or whatever, their economic and social policies were largely influenced by the democratic doctrines of USA, which appealed to their societies as opposed to Karl Marx's unattainable nor sustainable USSR eco - political idelologies.
Thus, what are Swiss standards but tinged with post war US influences?
And more critically, why are you so stubbornly insistent on achieving Swiss standards, or our perceived slow progress towards it, when with what they claimed, they are only trying to source the best qualities from each nation, not just Switzerland, in our world that would fit and help progress our society?
Are you so blind with self centred hate and rage, so common here, with the authorities that you fail to look at the broader picture of greater good for our society - which makes up not only you, but est 3.199 million others?
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xtreyier sounds like the other guy who got banned before.
Who was it again?
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Originally posted by charlize:
xtreyier sounds like the other guy who got banned before.
Who was it again?
Gazelle??? -
yet again, he trying to use the fear factor.
i dont understand how opposition party can bring singapore into division three? u mean low thia kiang will scare away all investor by implementing hitler , junta,rule to singapore?
anyway, do you think singapore will be in top table premier league or champion league of the world by having foreign talents?
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
Gazelle???No, the other guy.
Not gazelle.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Do not presume that i will run away from responding to you. You are not a challenge to me, or do i have the time for schoolyard challenges of which you seem to enjoy playing despite your protestations.
Go enrol in classes. If you don't have the funds for it, you can apply to CDC for help.
The department of statistics has all the info you need for our economic and social data. It is easy to understand, and you will just need to do some homework on it. Don't expect everyone here to spoonfeed you. Didn't we all here say we don't like to be spoonfed?
Nation states look on and follow the ones whom are successful and is a powerhouse in this world. After WWII, and the subsequent following years, USSR and the USA were the major centres of influence. Whether Swiss, Swedish, or whatever, their economic and social policies were largely influenced by the democratic doctrines of USA, which appealed to their societies as opposed to Karl Marx's unattainable nor sustainable USSR eco - political idelologies.
Thus, what are Swiss standards but tinged with post war US influences?
And more critically, why are you so stubbornly insistent on achieving Swiss standards, or our perceived slow progress towards it, when with what they claimed, they are only trying to source the best qualities from each nation, not just Switzerland, in our world that would fit and help progress our society?
Are you so blind with self centred hate and rage, so common here, with the authorities that you fail to look at the broader picture of greater good for our society - which makes up not only you, but est 3.199 million others?
Expected lol. Clown lah, dude. What do u do by the way? Must be a loser. -
Originally posted by charlize:
No, the other guy.
Not gazelle.
Who? I'm certain it's not Gazelle....nor Mat Toro.But me pretty certain he ranks up there with these clowns. Congratulations lol.
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Originally posted by parn:
Are Singaporeans not enjoying quality living?If not, then what do you think is considered quality living then?
Hmm...I didn't expect my statements would be too big for you.
1) No your statements are not considered big for me. It is simply your vain attempt to flaunt your maturity which seriously backfired on you. Pathetic.2) Are Singaporeans enjoying quality living? If yes, why are there many Singaporeans unpleased with their life? Or are Singaporeans too pampered and whiny?
3) It seemed to me that you grow up in a sheltered and well-to-do family with no worry about everyday life.
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Originally posted by Spartans:
1) No your statements are not considered big for me. It is simply your vain attempt to flaunt your maturity which seriously backfired on you. Pathetic.2) Are Singaporeans enjoying quality living? If yes, why are there many Singaporeans unpleased with their life? Or are Singaporeans too pampered and whiny?
3) It seemed to me that you grow up in a sheltered and well-to-do family with no worry about everyday life.
Your lack of opinion towards my post only shows you don't have a better opinion to offer against mine.
Trying to pass comments on me based on that is futile. It only exposes your own immaturity and self-enlarged ego like the topic starter.
Being impolite to a girl anonymously online doesn't makes you a lion, it just makes you nothing more than a hyena.
You are the answer to why many Singaporeans are displeased with their life, cos you're one of them. You should be able to answer your own questions.
Your curiousity about me is not a concern of mine and will never be a concern of mine.
The cause of your curiousity is because it's a fact that I am so much better than you, and very far beyond your reach.
That's why guys like you will never stand a chance with a girl like me. Taking out your frustrations on me anonymously online will never change the fact about you in your real life.
Go ahead and hurl your abuses at me if that will make you happier, but they will never reach me.
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An interesting read....
The Devil, Chua Lee Hoong & Harry Lee
http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/2008/08/devil-chua-lee-hoong-harry-lee.html
How did Jack do it? How did he seize power? Essentially he played on the boys' fears. He told them that somewhere on the island, there lived a fearsome "beast". According to Jack, this "beast" was ferocious, it was no ordinary animal, it was a kind of monster and it was hungry. It hated the boys and was out to hunt them down and kill them.
And the only way for the boys to escape the "beast" and survive was to accept Jack as their leader. For Jack was the strongest, the smartest.......... -
I love a good story now and then, for in its simplicity, it tells us much on the realities of life itself. None other than Aseop (620-560BC).
He was a slave from Greece, subsequently freed and lived in the court of Croesus. He used the simplicity of fables to enable hardened hearts change their minds or at least consider the ramifications of their actions.
His works were said to influence revered ancient philosophers whom much of our present critical thinking and conceptulisation are based upon, such as Socrates and Plato, Aristotle.
I do believe one of his tales, the Goose that lay the golden eggs, is very much appropriate in these rather self centred times:-
A man and his wife had the good fortune to possess a goose which laid a golden egg every day. Lucky though they were, they soon began to think they were not getting rich fast enough, and, imagining the bird must be made of gold inside, they decided to kill it. Then, they thought, they could obtain the whole store of precious metal at once.but when they cut the goose open, they found it was like any other goose.
Moral:- Those who want too much lose everything
Think before you act
I would not force anything down anyone's throat, but hope that one may draw their own intelligent conclusion. We are no longer as uneducated as the previous generation of post-independence Singapore.
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Moral:- Those who want too much lose everything
Think before you act
I agree.
PAP regime should take note.
Increase pay until highest in the world.
Keep on oppressing the people and squeezing them won't lead to anything good.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
I agree.
PAP regime should take note.
Increase pay until highest in the world.
Keep on oppressing the people and squeezing them won't lead to anything good.
Poh, i have a problem that perhaps you can solve.
My friend, Benny, formed a dot.com company in Singapore. He survived the crash of the '90s and was very successful, absolutely unreplaceable by any other software in this world and owned full rights to its use.
His staff were all given stock options when he started, the only way he could get employers back then.
Having sacrificed his time and years, he nows want to retire, to get a wife, have kids and enjoy the fruit of his labour, dedicate his time fullest to his progenies whom he love to have.
Problem is, he couldn't find anyone to take his place. He tried:-
a.)Promotion of staff:- None of the capable ones in his staff want his job, because it is hectic, 24/7 daily, critical decisions only he can make, butt kissing aplenty,etc. They are comfortable being system analysts, designers, artisans, etc, than to earn that miserable few hundreds more that his pay actually was.
b.)Foreign Talent:- His staff, worry about their own stock options being diluted, nor want to answer to a foriegner and his foreigness culture, bayed for blood if he dare hires them.
c.) Continue working:- He had enough and his biological urges are too strong to deny. He needs a break or his company will break up.
d.) Fold up the company:- He thought of doing this, selling it away, to hell with what they do to the company and copyrights, then giving each of his staff dividends based on their stock options. Some of the more junior ones loved it, for with the money, they could enjoy a temporary wealth or join another company. But for the older ones, it is not enough to see them through their old age, and would not be hired by any company, not fair to these for they had helped him build up the company.
So, Poh, what would you recommend? My rcommendation was that he seek out the best amongst his staff and convince him to take on the task, but with an out of this world pay but something that is not significant in the profits the company makes annually.
What is your recommendation?
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Promotion of staff:- None of his staff want his job
That doesn't sound realistic to me xtreyier
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
That doesn't sound realistic to me xtreyier
In truth, are you evading the problem as well as the solution, by decry and arguing over texts? Then, be thankful it is me and rather, my friend's problem and not yours. But if you were in my position as a friend, or in a somewhat similiar situation in our society, what would you have done?