Originally posted by Beautiful951:
Isn't it like that already?
Not all the time, or depending on the group of people, of course
Originally posted by Chin Eng:Let me give my two cent's worth....
How LKY and Low Thia Khiang speak is directly connected to their upbringing and how they were educated. One comes from a primarily English speaking background while the other was education in a Chinese environment. Hence whether one speaks with a slight English accent and the other in a Teochew accented English is not really intentional.
So, please, to those who are already bias towards one person, at least be objective in this observation. I am in no way implying that one language of education is superior to another.
Back to the topic: What then is GOOD English? I don't think the intent is to say that spoken English has to carry an accent of another country.
Language in itself is dynamic - as long as the person listening to you is able to make up what you are saying, it can be deemed that communication has taken place, regardless of whether good or bad English is spoken.
But to broaden the argument - what is GOOD English when we are dealing with other people beyond your circle of influence? Actually it is no different from the previous paragraph.
However, taking into context the level of language prowess among our people, I don't think it is wrong to state that many Singapores do not speak GOOD English because foreigners may not understand what we are saying....
It goes beyond accent - it goes into the jargons, the colloqualism, the patois etc. Many people are not able to remove these when communicating, hence the chances of beind misunderstood or not understood is very high.
I know these for a fact because I work with foreigners either here or their home country. And when I communicate, I have to ensure that my language is crisp, precise, and clear.
Chin Eng, bingo. I share the same sentiments. I believe for us who were taught English in schools know what is good English.
LKY speaks good English, he speaks better than his son, lhl.
In any languages, there is always room for improvement.
Originally posted by XenStar:Singlish makes the speaker sound uncouth. I'm sure you don't want to step into a convention theatre with people going "Eh where the drinks ah?"
Unfortunately, many locals are so proud of Singlish. They are too complacent to improve their English.
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Unfortunately, many locals are so proud of Singlish. They are too complacent to improve their English.
Agreed, maybe it's time for a change?
Malaysia kids have lots to learn.
the chinese kids there need to learn malay, english and chinese.
by comparision, singapore kids only need to learn 2.
I think the system is good enough as it is now.
And i really think that it is important for small kids to be able to talk to kids of other race. racial harmony starts young, one country one people...
Originally posted by XenStar:Agreed, maybe it's time for a change?
That is provided they see the need to change. If we were to suggest to them to change, it will be backfired. We will be blacklisted. Most of the time, I leave them alone.
There was a period of time, my friend and I used to check on each other's English. I think this is important.
But then isn't language (spoken anyway) used mainly for communication?
"Its singlish which makes us Singaporean" i'm sure many if not most of you find this phrase starkingly familar. Singlish is definately one of a kind. It reflects on our nation as a country with diverse multi-racial and multi-religious culture.
No doubt what XenStar says is true about sounding uncouth, but one can also see it as an intra-singapore language bridging across generations both young and old alike. Like how the chinese in China all speak different kinds of chinese with their different accents and words from their dialects but they too have a common chinese languange also known as 'pu tong hua' ( common language ). They too, use their own variations of chinese to identify people from their own groups who share a common root with them. We could do likewise and take singlish as our own unique variation of english. At the same time making the switch to use proper english to converse with our foreign counterparts.
Furthermore it gives us a common sense of belonging, especially when we're overseas, its more heartening to know that there's this stranger you've met who share something in common with you. That kind of 'qing qie gan' ( familiarity ) can only be felt.
Its just how we want to view singlish as; a cultural jewel or a rotten apple? You decide
Its just how we want to view singlish as; a cultural jewel or a rotten apple? You decide
PAP regime despises it.
Tell us speak good english.
But their own education system produced it.
Before they invented the education system, singlish did not exist.
Now they put the blame on us, when they force us to go through that system which produces people speaking singlish.
How fucked up can you get?
If PAP regime is serious about improving english standard, then they better be sincere and go reform the education system that is able to train good speakers.
If they continue to push the blame on the people and launch futile campaign and refuses to admit that their system is the root of the problem, I will continue to despise PAP regime.
Pls acknowledge the fact that Singlish sucks nuts pls. The rest of the world dun think its cool. haaha
Ban Hokkien. hahaha
Come to think of it. East malaysia has more in common with Sg then KL.
Only Singaporean and Malaysians speak english will mix chinese and malay. hahaha n a bit of hokkien, foochow , hakka , cantonese . Rojak Language.
ya lor. some ppl like to maintain the strong singlish accent when talking to seemingly english-speaking ppl (ang mohs lah) and these ang moh ppl tell me they find it hard to understand the shit, and can be quite irritating to hear.
not that i advocate fake accents but at least be articulate? fake accents are the worstest btw, heavily donned by spgs and spbs.
PAP regime should seriously reflect on policy of bombarding kids with two languages at early age and thus giving birth to the singlish speaking person.
I hope they will stop evading the root cause of the problem - the EDUCATION SYSTEM.
Don't keep coming to me and tell me speak good english, as if it is my fault; I tell you to go fuck off.
Fucking PAP.
You can't fool me PAP.
You can't fool me Lee Kuan Yew.
I know too much already.
Those who don't know, you can go and fuck.
But don't try your shit with me.
It won't work.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:PAP regime should seriously reflect on policy of bombarding kids with two languages at early age and thus giving birth to the singlish speaking person.
I hope they will stop evading the root cause of the problem - the EDUCATION SYSTEM.
Don't keep coming to me and tell me speak good english, as if it is my fault; I tell you to go fuck off.
Fucking PAP.
You can't fool me PAP.
You can't fool me Lee Kuan Yew.
I know too much already.
Those who don't know, you can go and fuck.
But don't try your shit with me.
It won't work.
damn... u everything all blame PAP... ur parents born u also blame PAP... sometimes ur arguements makes no sense at all.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:PAP regime should seriously reflect on policy of bombarding kids with two languages at early age and thus giving birth to the singlish speaking person.
I hope they will stop evading the root cause of the problem - the EDUCATION SYSTEM.
Don't keep coming to me and tell me speak good english, as if it is my fault; I tell you to go fuck off.
at the end of the day, we choose to desire to speak well or not.... as long as our immediate circle does not need us to speak well, fine....
but, it is not wrong to choose to speak good English....
I grew up in there generation where Chinese starting to be emphasized and had a tough time doing well. This was compounded by the fact that the school I was in has a very poor record of Mother Tongue.
but over the years I see the importance of being well-spoken because in the course of my work, I need to deliver messages for my company in large-crowd situations in an international context.
in comparison with some of our economic competitors, eg, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, and even China. I'd say that an above average Singapore has a very good command of English. With just a little of self-awareness, a Singaporean can deliver a relatively crisp dialogue to the world.
to give it a slight twist.... would you listen to the Chen Shu Bian mandarin or the Ma Ying Jiu mandarin?
Originally posted by Rednano:
damn... u everything all blame PAP... ur parents born u also blame PAP... sometimes ur arguements makes no sense at all.
exactly, here's where a person stops being objective and becomes emotive.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:PAP regime should seriously reflect on policy of bombarding kids with two languages at early age and thus giving birth to the singlish speaking person.
I hope they will stop evading the root cause of the problem - the EDUCATION SYSTEM.
Don't keep coming to me and tell me speak good english, as if it is my fault; I tell you to go fuck off.
Fucking PAP.
You can't fool me PAP.
You can't fool me Lee Kuan Yew.
I know too much already.
Those who don't know, you can go and fuck.
But don't try your shit with me.
It won't work.
such simple logic u also cant understand... multi races Singapore...
.... at the end of the day, how we define our personal parameters determines how big we see our world as....
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
exactly, here's where a person stops being objective and becomes emotive.
all he do is to complain A LOT... then asked to provide solution... play merry-go-round and continue to complain... at the end of the day, still no solution
I pity you, because you either have some problem with Peranakans or your hatred for Lee Kuan Yew has blinded you to the fact that he is one and did not learn Mandarin or speak it at home when he was young.
Kids in other countries also learn 2 languages or more in school when they are small, and many are effectively multilingual. Some can speak and write English better than chavs from GB.
I think the trouble is with kids who speak broken English at home, and then bring it to their social spheres. It is a lot easier to pick up a language from scratch than to unlearn flawed structures that one is used to. Singlish then becomes a way of communicating with everyone from different backgrounds, because it incorporates words from other languages AND their sentence structures (even if they are unsound).
I'm not sure about Tamil, but I had difficulties learning Mandarin because one can't pronounce the characters or derive their meanings just by looking at them. It's more abstract in that sense to one who comes from an English-speaking home. On the other hand I found it more straightfoward to read German and adjust the sentence structure accordingly. That is just my experience.
Our language education could provide better grounding (and don't just bring in foreigners to teach without ensuring that the standards of other teachers subsequently rise), but having said that, when we have a good mix of kids from different ethnic and home backgrounds, we have a harder task than more homogenous societies.
We have to let go of the habit of championing people who can switch between both Singlish and standard English, because not everyone has the ability to switch codes or a firm grasp in the latter or the sensitivity to be able to do so. And yes, please drop the false accents and the bombastic sentences if that is what one thinks good English is about.
Originally posted by Rednano:
all he do is to complain A LOT... then asked to provide solution... play merry-go-round and continue to complain... at the end of the day, still no solution
.... just like somebody else...
Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
Kids in other countries also learn 2 languages or more in school when they are small, and many are effectively multilingual. Some can speak and write English better than chavs from GB.
... quite true.... saw a group of American kids on the MRT once.... they were speaking French... then they switch to American accented English....
... actually nowadays, many folks speak multiple languages. Mandarin being one of the more sought after ones.
my own family, in general, do not speak Singlish.... but yet we do lapse into the occassional "wah lau eh!" sometimes.
Originally posted by Articulation:"Its singlish which makes us Singaporean" i'm sure many if not most of you find this phrase starkingly familar. Singlish is definately one of a kind. It reflects on our nation as a country with diverse multi-racial and multi-religious culture.
No doubt what XenStar says is true about sounding uncouth, but one can also see it as an intra-singapore language bridging across generations both young and old alike. Like how the chinese in China all speak different kinds of chinese with their different accents and words from their dialects but they too have a common chinese languange also known as 'pu tong hua' ( common language ). They too, use their own variations of chinese to identify people from their own groups who share a common root with them. We could do likewise and take singlish as our own unique variation of english. At the same time making the switch to use proper english to converse with our foreign counterparts.
Furthermore it gives us a common sense of belonging, especially when we're overseas, its more heartening to know that there's this stranger you've met who share something in common with you. That kind of 'qing qie gan' ( familiarity ) can only be felt.
Its just how we want to view singlish as; a cultural jewel or a rotten apple? You decide
Its singlish which makes us Singaporean" .... It reflects on our nation as a country with diverse multi-racial and multi-religious culture.
Fully agree with this statement. This is a language which Singaporean communicate. My german and french colleagues always turn to speak to each other in their own language, especially when they are far away from home. No reason why I cannot speak singlish with my fellow singaporean. In fact, I always feel the familiarity when I hear singlish being spoken in distant land.
But the key to the issue is if we are able to "use proper english to converse with our foreign counterparts". Can we take out the hokkien, malay words in your sentence? Many Singaporean cannot. That is where we must learn.
the sentence structure of some singlish is actually when people think in Chinese then do mental translation to english. this may not be easy to correct, can't imagine how many singaporean really think in english.
what is really good english? new words are being added to the oxford dictionary, words used in MSM, in SMS...and we also have some words that have no alternative in the original English dictionary, works such as Shoke, exclamation such as Uah Lao Way, or alamat (don't hear people say alas). can we use these words, trying to speak good english? Haven't checked if any of our singlish vocab is adopted in Oxford english, but I do know that chinese words like �龄，组屋 are now accepted as senior citizens and government housing, in China, and HK.
what is proper english? when I wrote "color" on the board and my british MD corrected me and say it should spell "colour". But to the American, "color" is OK. I decided since to stick to my own, and explain that my english is singlish, not english, not american.
In an official presentation to Asian, I use only official english; to americans and europeans, I use official english with some Chinese, and they usually love to hear some Chinese stories. In informal conversations with the angmoh , I speak Singlish, and that give me the opportunity to share with them why we speak the way we speak. So far so good.
every sentence we end it with "la leh lor" its a bad habit....
Originally posted by d3rF:
Hypothetically speaking, if someone who was brought up in a all-Cantonese speaking environment, and being billingual, this person speaks good English (i.e. no "lah", "leh" , "lor", etc.). Would you agree that a westerner will find it difficult to make out the words that this person is speaking? ... He will be replacing "R" sounds with "L", most of the time... e.g. "I like to lun in the morning... and then lide my bicycle to wok"...
*** In case you don't know, Cantonese has little or no words that starts with the consonent "R" ***
I am glad you use the word "hypothetically".... the scenario you paint is only in a place where English is not a mainstay, eg Hong Kong and only when stereotyped....
I am Cantonese myself, and speak fluent Cantonese so much so that my HK colleagues has always commended that sometimes I sound better than them..... but never have my English sounded like the HK version.
How we enunciate may be determined on whether we think in one language and speak another....