Originally posted by Kuali Baba:I pity you, because you either have some problem with Peranakans or your hatred for Lee Kuan Yew has blinded you to the fact that he is one and did not learn Mandarin or speak it at home when he was young.
Kids in other countries also learn 2 languages or more in school when they are small, and many are effectively multilingual. Some can speak and write English better than chavs from GB.
I think the trouble is with kids who speak broken English at home, and then bring it to their social spheres. It is a lot easier to pick up a language from scratch than to unlearn flawed structures that one is used to. Singlish then becomes a way of communicating with everyone from different backgrounds, because it incorporates words from other languages AND their sentence structures (even if they are unsound).
I'm not sure about Tamil, but I had difficulties learning Mandarin because one can't pronounce the characters or derive their meanings just by looking at them. It's more abstract in that sense to one who comes from an English-speaking home. On the other hand I found it more straightfoward to read German and adjust the sentence structure accordingly. That is just my experience.
Our language education could provide better grounding (and don't just bring in foreigners to teach without ensuring that the standards of other teachers subsequently rise), but having said that, when we have a good mix of kids from different ethnic and home backgrounds, we have a harder task than more homogenous societies.
We have to let go of the habit of championing people who can switch between both Singlish and standard English, because not everyone has the ability to switch codes or a firm grasp in the latter or the sensitivity to be able to do so. And yes, please drop the false accents and the bombastic sentences if that is what one thinks good English is about.
Peranakans and the Chinese "helicoptor" are the result of the circumstances of the past. correct me if I am wrong about Peranakans, the true peranakans were chinese who married local girls and they spoke Malay and Hokkien. Chinese who went back to China to get married continued to speak only Chinese dialects.
The use of English came in when Peranakans and Chinese went to English schools set up by the British government. And some Chinese continued to study in Chinese schools set up by the chinese community. The diversion among the Chinese is therefore not among the Peranakans and others, it is between the English educated and the Chinese educated. Many peranakans I know continue to speak Hokkien at home, and their observance of Chinese traditions and culture is even more strongly rooted than many other Chinese.
Unlike Taiwan and Hong Kong Chinese immigrants, Singapore Chinese immigrants did not come from educated families, most of our ancestors were very very poor farmers, mainly from the poor southern China. any child who went to english school will go home and speak with their parents in dialect, how to learn english at home? got money to let you tuck che, jin ho liao. If the children continued their english education till O level, last time level 9, gao ho, you can become government officers liao, then you can continue to speak english. If you stop at primary six and go back to help your parents, or flunk during secondary school, then you use the little english you learned, the balance substituted with hokkien...hence singlish. These people represents a much larger segment of the society, compared to those who learned proper english.
the important thing about singlish is that we speak english when we think in chinese, "you go where", "wait lah" are Chinese sentence structure.
The difference between Chinese language and english, or german, french is the origins of these languages. Chinese language developed from oracle, the shape of the words tell the meaning. So you have the word 船，made up of a sampan 舟, with eight persons 八�, very much in line with the history of Noah recorded in the Bible. German and English are originated from Latin, hence you find much more similarity between the two languages. If you learn Japanese and Korean, you will also find it a lot easy if you know Chinese.
I am glad that today there is no distinct Chinese and English educated, but we have Singaporeans who know both English and Chinese, but good at neither. When I auntie told me my nephew, who scored A in Chinese, said to the waiter "ä½ ä¸�ç»™å¸�å�•ï¼Œæˆ‘æ€Žæ ·èµ”é’±ã€‚"" You don't give me the bill how do I pay money?" we have problem.
what to do and where to go from here, I really don't know. I only ask my kids to study well in both languages and if possible, they should spend sometime in China and UK, or may be america, for a short period of time, exchange program, may be, to feel the language environment. After that what they learn and speak, I really don't know.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
I am glad you use the word "hypothetically".... the scenario you paint is only in a place where English is not a mainstay, eg Hong Kong and only when stereotyped....I am Cantonese myself, and speak fluent Cantonese so much so that my HK colleagues has always commended that sometimes I sound better than them..... but never have my English sounded like the HK version.
How we enunciate may be determined on whether we think in one language and speak another....
Cantonese is the only dialect group I know who treasure their dialect. Almost all the Cantonese I know are like you, continue to speak fluent cantonese while using English as your dominant language for work and business. Many other dialect groups have given up their dialect in trying to speak good English.
Poh Ah pak is a fucking idiot.
Originally posted by Articulation:"Its singlish which makes us Singaporean" i'm sure many if not most of you find this phrase starkingly familar. Singlish is definately one of a kind. It reflects on our nation as a country with diverse multi-racial and multi-religious culture.
No doubt what XenStar says is true about sounding uncouth, but one can also see it as an intra-singapore language bridging across generations both young and old alike. Like how the chinese in China all speak different kinds of chinese with their different accents and words from their dialects but they too have a common chinese languange also known as 'pu tong hua' ( common language ). They too, use their own variations of chinese to identify people from their own groups who share a common root with them. We could do likewise and take singlish as our own unique variation of english. At the same time making the switch to use proper english to converse with our foreign counterparts.
Furthermore it gives us a common sense of belonging, especially when we're overseas, its more heartening to know that there's this stranger you've met who share something in common with you. That kind of 'qing qie gan' ( familiarity ) can only be felt.
Its just how we want to view singlish as; a cultural jewel or a rotten apple? You decide
Fine. Perhaps, you want to use Singlish to write composition for "O" level.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:If PAP regime is serious about improving english standard, then they better be sincere and go reform the education system that is able to train good speakers.
If they continue to push the blame on the people and launch futile campaign and refuses to admit that their system is the root of the problem, I will continue to despise PAP regime.
Objectively speaking, speaking good English benefits the people, nothing political about it. What is contradioting is some members of the ruling party don't speak good English, for eg, Lee Hsien Loong. Lee Hsien Loong is the mascot for the Speak Good English Movement this year but . . .
Originally posted by Rednano:
damn... u everything all blame PAP... ur parents born u also blame PAP... sometimes ur arguements makes no sense at all.
Once LKY dies, he will be back to normal.
hello fantagf.
Originally posted by Beautiful951:hello fantagf.
Hello, beauty. I am not against Singlish when it is used among Singaporeans purely for entertainment, interaction. Use proper English when required. I am one who is unconsciously easily influenced.
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Hello, beauty. I am not against Singlish when it is used among Singaporeans purely for entertainment, interaction. Use proper English when required. I am one who is unconsciously easily influenced.
Oh I see.
“correct me if I am wrong about Peranakans, the true peranakans were chinese who married local girls and they spoke Malay and Hokkien. Chinese who went back to China to get married continued to speak only Chinese dialects.”
Only part of what you said about Peranakan is correct.
Long before the arrival of European, trade between India and China when as far back as 1500 years. Before the invention of insurance and while it is true that Chinese and Indian trader married local lady as a hedge against thief of good left behind as the trader set sail, this only part of the reality.
The arrival Chinese in SE Asia came mainly in waves.
The first significant wave of Chinese traders came after the founding of Malacca. Malacca, unlike other Malay sultanates was founded and administered with the help of the rich and powerful Muslim Indian traders and the initial few Bandahara (chief Ministers) were all Indian in origin.
With the help of the rich and powerful Muslim Indian, Malacca quickly rose to prominence, attracting traders all over. Malaya was an equatorial jungle with small pockets of indigenous settlers. The founding brought traders from Indonesia and China. Some came and settled down.
(Historian also debating on the earliest arrival the Chinese because it was a borderless world then. Trader came and went freely and the indigenous population was small, arrival/departure of migrant or trader can tilt racial balance.
Even this first wave is disputed by historian. Before the founding of Malacca, were other historical events, e.g. the founding of Kedah etc.
Kedah appeared more of a settlement for Indian traders than a shipping outpost, benefiting trade across the isthmus of Thailand.
Also, there could be earlier smaller Chinese arrival that historian has no way of finding out.)
The second wave came with the marriage of the Sultan of Malacca with a Ming Emperor’s daughter. This marriage also brought about influx of Chinese court officials, artisans, maids, soldiers, courtesans etc. Historian believes that it was thru this arrival that gave rise to the unique Malacca peranakan culture.
The third wave came with the annex of Malacca by the Portuguese, later the Dutch. These annexations brought about the first direct sea trade route between China and the western powers.
(The previous were the indirect sea route thru middlemen of Muslim Indian and/or Arab.)
The fourth wave came with the discovering of gold, precious metals and tin. Later, cash crops of rubber. This wave was the largest and came about during the heighten crisis in China and with the remedy of malaria – drainage.
Of all the waves, the last were the least peranakan. In the sense that they were cultural affiliation with China and didn’t speak Malay. But older folk will also tell you that it was during this period that the peranakan expanded as the new arrival married the peranakan, giving rise to Hokkien, Teochew, Hakka, Hainan paranakan variants.
Singaporean speak $$ only, even singapore govt also speak $$ only, whatever singlish, inlish, malish english or chinese or hokkien, in singapore, got $$ and speak $$, you are welcome.
damn... u everything all blame PAP... ur parents born u also blame PAP... sometimes ur arguements makes no sense at all.
How, in what way my arguments makes no sense?
Originally posted by Xephone_xenon:Poh Ah pak is a fucking idiot.
Pls refrain from name calling.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:Peranakans and the Chinese "helicoptor" are the result of the circumstances of the past. correct me if I am wrong about Peranakans, the true peranakans were chinese who married local girls and they spoke Malay and Hokkien. Chinese who went back to China to get married continued to speak only Chinese dialects.
The use of English came in when Peranakans and Chinese went to English schools set up by the British government. And some Chinese continued to study in Chinese schools set up by the chinese community. The diversion among the Chinese is therefore not among the Peranakans and others, it is between the English educated and the Chinese educated. Many peranakans I know continue to speak Hokkien at home, and their observance of Chinese traditions and culture is even more strongly rooted than many other Chinese.
Unlike Taiwan and Hong Kong Chinese immigrants, Singapore Chinese immigrants did not come from educated families, most of our ancestors were very very poor farmers, mainly from the poor southern China. any child who went to english school will go home and speak with their parents in dialect, how to learn english at home? got money to let you tuck che, jin ho liao. If the children continued their english education till O level, last time level 9, gao ho, you can become government officers liao, then you can continue to speak english. If you stop at primary six and go back to help your parents, or flunk during secondary school, then you use the little english you learned, the balance substituted with hokkien...hence singlish. These people represents a much larger segment of the society, compared to those who learned proper english.
the important thing about singlish is that we speak english when we think in chinese, "you go where", "wait lah" are Chinese sentence structure.
The difference between Chinese language and english, or german, french is the origins of these languages. Chinese language developed from oracle, the shape of the words tell the meaning. So you have the word 船，made up of a sampan 舟, with eight persons 八�, very much in line with the history of Noah recorded in the Bible. German and English are originated from Latin, hence you find much more similarity between the two languages. If you learn Japanese and Korean, you will also find it a lot easy if you know Chinese.
I am glad that today there is no distinct Chinese and English educated, but we have Singaporeans who know both English and Chinese, but good at neither. When I auntie told me my nephew, who scored A in Chinese, said to the waiter "ä½ ä¸�ç»™å¸�å�•ï¼Œæˆ‘æ€Žæ ·èµ”é’±ã€‚"" You don't give me the bill how do I pay money?" we have problem.
what to do and where to go from here, I really don't know. I only ask my kids to study well in both languages and if possible, they should spend sometime in China and UK, or may be america, for a short period of time, exchange program, may be, to feel the language environment. After that what they learn and speak, I really don't know.
There isn't anything I'd disagree here. I pointed out LKY's background to show PAP how blinded he is. Peranakans also speak Malay (specifically Baba Malay which is a potois of that and Hokkien) at home.
It's not an easy task to break the chain of broken English...the trouble is also with getting students and adults to break out of the habit even if they already have the resouces, and to want to improve their own command of the language.
I pointed out LKY's background to show PAP how blinded he is.
I blind in what?
Blind in Lee Kuan Yew lousy chinese or cannot speak chinese?
Originally posted by 4sg:Pls refrain from name calling.
wha! so serious liao
Originally posted by angel7030:Singaporean speak $$ only, even singapore govt also speak $$ only, whatever singlish, inlish, malish english or chinese or hokkien, in singapore, got $$ and speak $$, you are welcome.
Angel baby, it is the govt who keep speaking $, constantly increasing increasing to suck the Singaporeans dry so how can locals ignore.
Originally posted by angel7030:
wha! so serious liao
the heat is on...got to cool it mah......
the heat is on...got to cool it mah......
Why heat suddenly on?
Strange.
I launch attacks against PAP, some don't like than retaliate against me.
That is normal here wah.
Don't retaliate here, retaliate there, this forum become dead like parliament.
Come come, retaliate on me, retaliate on me.
Just don't fuck me in the backside like Anwar okay already.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Why heat suddenly on?
Strange.
I launch attacks against PAP, some don't like than retaliate against me.
That is normal here wah.
Don't retaliate here, retaliate there, this forum become dead like parliament.
Come come, retaliate on me, retaliate on me.
I no retaliate you. I speak the truth. I no intention to retaliate you.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Why heat suddenly on?
Strange.
I launch attacks against PAP, some don't like than retaliate against me.
That is normal here wah.
Don't retaliate here, retaliate there, this forum become dead like parliament.
Come come, retaliate on me, retaliate on me.
Just don't fuck me in the backside like Anwar okay already.
excuse me Anwar not proven yet. He refuse to approve the DNA law
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Why heat suddenly on?
Strange.
I launch attacks against PAP, some don't like than retaliate against me.
That is normal here wah.
Don't retaliate here, retaliate there, this forum become dead like parliament.
Come come, retaliate on me, retaliate on me.
Just don't fuck me in the backside like Anwar okay already.
You all heard him? retaliate but dun fuck his bs....
Speak "good" english for what?
What is "good" english?
Please lah....
excuse me Anwar not proven yet. He refuse to approve the DNA law
I mean Anwar kenna fucked in the ass, not he fuck others in the ass.
Originally posted by 4sg:You all heard him? retaliate but dun fuck his bs....
He will cool down when the "great" Dictator Lee passes on.