Why do people still vote for PAP?

jojobeach

2 Sep 08, 13:29

Originally posted by Evangel:

in SAF, who dares to defy orders? its their rice bowl, if not DB.

if many people in Singapore still dare not demonstrate here, dont expect SAF men to defy orders. And yes, we have no guts to take the risk to get ourselves in trouble.

I really salute CSJ for trying so hard to let people notice his hard work. I've come to realise that sometimes all talk doesnt work. CSJ is a man with guts, and mind you he is intelligent too, just that the papers always make him sound and look stupid. If he is really stupid, why is the police always tracking him whereever he goes? He must be a big threat right?

You make it sound like SAF personnel are cowards.They are the boys with guns and weapons.. if anything.. the leadership should be afraid of them.. not commoners who can only fight with sticks and stones. And why wouldn't SAF defy orders ? If the leaders order them to rape their own mothers.. will they defy the command ? Please.. SAF are also intelligent people.. they are not robots with no brains.

Have you wondered why there are still so many gurkhas contingents in Singapore ? And they are not cheap.

Yes, I agree.. CSJ is very gutsy.. and he speaks the minds of many Singaporeans. Because of his guts the current leadership are scared of him.. If not LKY will not make him a bankrupt..a bankrupt cannot run for election.

Removal of bankruptcy can be easily done at the top level...But LHL have no guts to face off with CSJ.

If CSJ truly gets defeated via the vote of the people.. I'm sure he will accept the defeat graciously.

Will LHL dare take up the challenge to a fair duel..? I doubt it.

Fantagf

2 Sep 08, 16:26

Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:

You have to go ask Lee Kuan Yew.

Immediately, however, Kuan Yew's attention was concentrated on how he would deal with J.B Jeyaretnam in parliament. I was quite alarmed at some of the things he told me at that lunch. "Look," he said, "Jeyaretnam cant win the infighting. I'll tell you why. WE are in charge. Every government ministry and department is under our control. And in the infighting, he will go down for the count every time." And I will never forget his last words. "I will make him crawl on his bended knees, and beg for mercy."

http://www.singapore-window.org/sw99/90321dn.htm

Contradictly, the son is preaching about graciousness. Lee ah loong should start to educate and make the father a gracious man before speaking to the people.

skythewood

2 Sep 08, 16:31

Court transcript :

CSJ: Mr Lee, we get to meet at last.

LKY: (pause)...Sorry?

CSJ: We get to meet at last.

LKY: I thought we've met many other times across election rallies.

CSJ: Your memory fails you. I've never met you before and you know why? Because you keep avoiding me. (Mr Lee laughs) Well, we have this opportunity right now. Let me ask you this question. You gave an interview saying: "If you defame us, and if I'm involved, I go to the the witness box and you can question me not only on the particular defamation issue, but on all issues in my life." Do you stand by your words?

LKY: I do.

CSJ: Good. In the course of the cross-examination, will you then answer questions not just on this particular defamation issue, but on all issues in your life -- and I don't mean your personal life, I mean your political life? Will you stand by that?

LKY: Your Honour, we appeared in court when the issue was whether or not the summary judgment was proper. That was the time to challenge --

CSJ: Mr Lee, that was not my question.

Judge: Allow the witness to answer. Mr Lee, please go on.

LKY: I have to answer. I'm a lawyer. I no longer practice the law. I know your purpose. You dodged that occasion and you're trying -- Dr Chee is trying today when the issue is the question of quantum of damages, it's not liability. I'm here to answer questions relating to the quantum of damages.

CSJ: Thank you. Then why is it that you say you will go to the witness box --

LKY: I have already explained that, Your Honour --

CSJ: -- and answer questions not just particular to this defamation issue but on all issues of your life. Now tell me, are those just brave words meant for public consumption and in this situation right now you're turning tail and running?

LKY: Ha ha ha, no Your Honour --

CSJ: Good. Then you won't mind me asking you why is it that you make this application to cut short your cross-examination precisely when you walk in at noon and say that you have to be stopped in the cross-examination by 2:15 giving me. the defence, only two hours and fifteen minutes, and then insisting that all of us can't go for lunch. And on top of that refusing to tell the court what this "important matter" you have this afternoon is.

LKY: That's...Your Honour...(pause)

CSJ: I'm lost for words too as I think you are right now.

LKY: ...(pause; Mr Lee was seen opening his mouth to answer but no words came out)

CSJ: Go ahead, Mr Lee.

LKY: ...(pause)

CSJ: No answer? That settles the question then.

LKY: Ha ha ha.

Judge: Dr Chee!

CSJ: Fine, let Mr Lee continue. I'm just waiting. He's probably lost for words because he doesn't quite know what to say at this stage.

Judge: If you keep interrupting the witness...Yes, Mr Lee.

LKY: ...(even longer pause)

CSJ: Please don't run down the clock. I've only got a few minutes.

At this stage, Mr Davinder Singh jumped in to bail out Mr Lee.

Singh: What is the question? Dr Chee has made so many points in his speech. He has already been told that the time to cross-examine the witness was during the summary judgment. If he had leave to defend. All issues would have been open for Dr Chee to have questioned him. The witness said that for Dr Chee to have questioned him. The witness said that Dr Chee had dodged that application and is now trying through the back door to introduce impermissible material. The witness said he is here as he said to answer questions on quantum. Dr Chee should really get on with the issue of quantum.

CSJ: Let me ask the question again. Mr Lee, you have said that you are here to answer these questions and I say that in that case why did you make an application to, halfway through the session, want the court to cut short this entire hearing. Now, I remind you that we have got until the end of tomorow, the end of tomorrow. So we have one-and-a-half days. But you insist that we have to finish by 2:15 for you to attend to some matters that you won't even reveal to the court. Now I ask you now does this sound like somebody who's willing to come to court and meet and resolve the issues?

LKY: Your Honour, I had a message from one of my counsel's aides to say that I should be in court by here 2 o'clock - by 12 o'clock because Your Honour has imposed a guillotine that the cross-examination of the prime minister would end at twelve. So I turn up at twelve. I was told that the guillotine allowed - had already been late he would be given 2 hours. I suggest - I asked my counsel to request the court to finish this two hours so that I can attend to some important matters. There's no disadvantage to anybody to be sitting here and finishing off this cross-examination within the two hours. What I do not want to be a party to is a deliberate abuse of the process, of the proceedings of the court by delaying tactics.

CSJ: So, Mr Lee --

LKY: And by asking irrelevant questions, Dr Chee is running out the gullotine. At the end of the day, we've had this confrontation face to face have you thrown any dirt, have you dug up any scandal? Are you still saying as you've said before that this government is run like the NKF?

CSJ: Now, Mr Lee, let me try to --

LKY: No, we are here because you have said that --

CSJ: Mr Lee, I'm going to ask you this question and I wish you'd just stick to the questions that I pose to you. I'm asking you why did you come to court --

LKY: Because I was asked --

CSJ: Let me rephrase my question. Are you telling the court that you had nothing to do with the curtailment of this entire process?

Singh: Your Honour, I made the application this morning and Your Honour would remembers that I said I was very troubled with what the Chees did yesterday and that it was quite apparent that they had nothing to ask which was of any relevance and that unfortunately or otherwise has been proven in this exchange. And I said, Your Honour, that the whole purpose of the cross-examination was to insult, annoy and to scandalise and that's also been proven true. For that reason, I had asked that there be a guillotine. Your Honour had full powers to control the proceedings. The order has already been made and I don't see why this witness should be asked to explain something that was the subject of my application and Your Honour's order.

CSJ: Do you see the game that's being played here, Mr Lee? Do you see how you are beginning to hide behind your counsel and then claim, "Look, I'm willing to confront them. It's my counsel." Now I'm going to ask you a very simple question: Right here, right now, tell Mr Davnder Singh "Don't interrupt. I will answer these questions as they are put to me right now."

LKY: Heh-heh. Your Honour, I've briefed counsel, I've always found it's never wise to be my own lawyer in my own case. I know that some perople believe that they can do otherwise, and I'm quite sure that Dr Chee is making a very great impression on all the reporters in this court of how he is better than Mr Ravi --

CSJ: I think you meant Mr Singh.

LKY: I believe Mr Singh is better qualified to deal with the legalities of this case.

CSJ: Well, I should hope so with all the training that he's got. Now, coming back to my question, Mr Lee, is your answer no, that you wll not tell Mr Singh: "Stay out of this. Let me answer my question because --

LKY: I --

CSJ: Let me finish my question -- because you have said -- and I repeat to you -- that you will answer not only questions about the "particular defamation issue, but on all issues in my life."

LKY: Yes...as long as that was what was an issue and that was the, it was an issue in the summary judgement was appealed against. [Note how garbled the answer is.] And we turned up for the hearing but you dodged the hearing.

CSJ: Mr Lee, you are not unintelligent.

LKY: Thank you.

CSJ: You knew precisely what you meant and what you mean is: "Come and ask me all these questions that doesn't pertain to this defamation suit and I will answer you because my entire standing, inlcuding the standing of this government, is at stake." Is that not correct?

LKY: I think, Dr Chee, we'll cut short this proceeding to become more relevant.

skythewood

2 Sep 08, 16:32

Chee (to Lee Hsien Loong): Would you refer to pg 192 of your AEIC, para 3 and read it to us.

Mr Lee Hsien Loong starts reading. Just before he gets to the words he uttered about fixing the opposition and buying over his supporters, Mr Davinder Singh stands up.

Singh: Objection, Your Honour.

Judge: I’ll read it.

Chee: Mr Lee, you read it.

Judge: Dr Chee please tell us the relevance.

Chee: This paragraph will show it's true of him -

Judge: Move on, the question is disallowed.

Chee: He has used words like "fix" and "buy votes". He's here to tell me that his reputation is based on so much. I’m here to demolish it, when he buys votes -

Judge: Disallowed.

Chee: Let it be recorded then. Mr Lee, come out and don’t hide behind your counsel. You have every opportunity to answer the questions. You allow your counsel to cover -

Singh: Objection, Your Honour.

Judge: Court has taken note of Dr Chee’s conduct.

Chee: Mr Lee, please refer to pg 39 of your AEIC sub-heading "lack of transparency." Do you agree with the last line and last paragraph that the GIC operates in secrecy?

Singh: Objection. Dr Chee is seeking to reopen the issue. This article relates to the offending words. The meaning has been taken to be false. The question of liability is done.

Chee: Turn then to pg 75 of your AEIC, bottom of the page. Is the Government transparent? Do you agree with this statement?

Singh: I object.

Judge: Irrelevent.

Chee: Do you believe the funds belongs to the people?

Singh: Irrelevent.

Chee: Same line and reason, that he is the Prime Minister and takes pride in the integrity -

Singh: The question is on the matter of Assesment of Damages -

Judge: Move on, Dr Chee.

Chee: You are the Deputy or the Vice Chairman of the GIC?

Singh: Irrelevant.

Chee: I want to establish that he says his reputation is sterling -

Singh: My client didn’t say that.

Judge: Yes.

Chee: How and where you have invested the GIC funds?

Judge: Move on.

Chee: Were you aware of the scandal at NKF -

Singh: Relevancy? NKF is a matter of liability.

Judge: Dr Chee, irrelevant.

Chee: Then you agree that T T Durai's salary was excessive?

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: Do you agree the salary -

Singh: Your Honour, my client was not aware of the NKF scandal -

Judge: Irrelevant.

Chee: If T T Durai had a summary judgement -

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: Do you agree that the openness of the Government -

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: I disagree as the witness was a Prime Minister during the period and argued in Parliament -

Singh: Maybe the Health Ministry was misled and my client did not know. The Government did proceed to investigate the matter.

Chee: The Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Health made comments and continued leading the people to donate to the NKF. You were the Prime Minister -

Singh: Objection.

Chee: Did you know the warning signals -

Singh: Objection.

Chee: These were raised in Parliament and whether he was sleeping like some of his colleagues -

Singh: That is not necessary and insulting -

Judge: Dr Chee, move on.

Singh: I want to remind Dr Chee of the injunction against repeating -

Chee: Do you agree if the salary is too much?

Judge: Disallowed.

Chee: Do you think that your Ministers spend too much -

Judge: Disallowed.

Chee: I put to you that the PAP is bent on greed and power.

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: Refer to pg 9 of your AEIC. Is the information on the cost of labour of building HDB flats available?

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: Is information on the cost of material of building HDB flats available?

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

Chee: Do you agree that the HDB is operating in secrecy?

Singh: Objection.

Judge: Sustained.

-----------------------------------------------------

Dr Chee: He (Mr Lee Kuan Yew) is talking about his integrity. Is this the same integrity that you are referring to when your government in 1963 arrested all your political opponents under Operation Coldstore?

Mr Davinder Singh, counsel for the plaintiffs, rises to object.

Dr Chee (turning to Mr Singh): Let him answer, he wants to answer.

Judge Belinda Ang: Question is disallowed.

Mr Singh: Thank you, Your Honour.

Dr Chee: He wants to talk about integrity and I want to talk about integrity. Let's talk about integrity, Mr Lee. Is this the same integrity as you are referring to when you jailed Mr Chia Thye Poh for 32 years, when you imprisoned Dr Lim Hock Siew for 19 years, and when depriving them all –

Judge Ang: Question is disallowed.

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: May I point out to you what Singapore was when I became prime minister in 1959 and what Singapore is now. We had less than $100 million in the kitty. Now that the assets that we have and I am not disclosing this but Global Financial Services assessed Singapore's sovereign wealth fund at over $300 billion.

Dr Chee: I am impressed. Now –

Mr Lee Kuan Yew: If you are impressed, Mr Chee – Dr Chee, if you're impressed, you would not have made these allegations.

Dr Chee: Mr Lee, is this the same integrity where you're talking about declassified documents from London?

Judge Ang: Irrelevant.

Dr Chee: – that you have –

Judge Ang: The witness is not required to answer.

Dr Chee: And I would like – well, Your Honour, he's brought up integrity and I just want to be able to pursue that line just a little bit more. Is it the same integrity –

Mr Singh: Your Honour, I object to this line of questioning.

Dr Chee: That you are referring to, Mr Lee, where now we begin to know –

Justice Ang: Question is disallowed.

Dr Chee: – and as a young man, I didn't – I believed you but now I'm reading declassified documents from London saying that somehow –

Mr Singh: Your Honour –

Dr Chee: – somehow, Mr Lim Chin Siong –

Mr Singh: Your Honour, please stop him.

Dr Chee: – was in his –

Judge Ang: Dr Chee

Dr Chee: Was in his political situation, and that somehow –

Judge Ang: Your question is disallowed.

Dr Chee: – you had – I beg your pardon, Your Honour?

Justice Ang: The question is disallowed. How is this relevant to the assessment of damages?

Dr Chee: You haven't even heard my question yet. You haven't even heard my question. Let me ask the question and then you can disallow it, Your Honour.

Mr Lee remained quiet.

skythewood

2 Sep 08, 16:33

The following exchange took place after Mr Lee Kuan Yew introduced the award given to him by Transparency International (Malaysia):

CSJ: Are you or are you not depending on this document to show your integrity in this court room. I remind one more time you will need a lot more that this because I can tell you this award is not worth the paper it is written.

LKY: We are also judged by PERC, we also judged by IMD, World Economic Forum and a whole host of other rating agencies.

CSJ: Good. Are you including International Commission Jurists? Are you including Human Rights Watch? Are you including Amnesty International? Are you including Committee to Project Journalists? Are you including International Federation for Free Exchange? Are you including Southeast Asia Press Alliance? Are you including World Movement for Democracy? Are you including Human Rights Defenders? Are you including World Forum for Democratisation in Asia? Are you including National Endowment for Democracy? Are you including Liberal International? Tell me you cited four, I cited you at least ten, Mr Lee. So do me a favour, let us not pick and choose at what endorsements you get because overall if you're trying to show me that your standing in the world is that high you wouldn't be clutching at straws and producing something from Tunku Aziz. I had a conversation with him -

Singh: Your Honour, what is the question?

CSJ: The question is why is Mr Lee depending on such a slipshop - when it is not a verifiable - if you come and tell me that you have been awarded the Nobel Prize I would accept it because that has been vetted. Tell me, who is in this organisation called Transparency International Malaysia. Tell me who are the officer here and when they make awards such as these, what vetting process do they go through?

Singh: Can we ask the cross examiner if he has a question? If he has not and he wants to make a speech and maybe for the next one hour left he can make his political speech. If he has no more questions for the witness he should say so.

CSJ: Your Honour, my question is this: Mr Lee has brought this ridiculous piece of paper and tells me that he is depending on this to prove his reputation. I'm asking him, does this plaintiff know who is behind this Transparency International Malaysia?

LKY: Your Honor, the man is on the Internet and the organisation is also on the website. They asked me in a private letter if I would receive this letter, There were wanting to score a point that it is possible to have in Southeast Asia a clean government. I agreed and I assume he would not sign a document citing TI which rates us always among the top 5 unless it had been authorised to do so. And now you are saying that he is liar, that he has falsely attributed this paragraph to Dr Eigen. Well then I say if you brought Dr Eigen here with an affidavit, then you can demolish Mr Adnan (should be Aziz) but not demolish me because I do not depend on Transparency International. I'm just putting this as an example of what PERC, IMD -

CSJ: But we haven't got the records of PERC, IMD and so in line with what Mr Singh said, let's dispense with it. Because if you did, you would produce them.

LKY: Ha. The simple answer really is between the competing NGOs, one for HR, one for liberal ideas of how governments should be and rating agencies concerned with actual assessment of government performance - where do investors put their money in. hey have not put their money in, if you study the World Bank and IMF reports in countries which are unable and corrupt -

CSJ: I think you're deliberately running down the clock. Let me ask you this question -

LKY: You are asking me this question -

CSJ: Let me pose this question. You had mentioned the Political and Economic Risk Consultancy -

Judge: Dr Chee! The witness, continue, finish -

CSJ: Let me ask you this question -

Judge: Dr Chee! I would like to hear this witness. Please continue.

LKY: There are liberal organisations which disagree with the way Singapore runs its social system but we believe we know better. Otherwise we wouldn't be here, otherwise we wouldn't have this courtroom, otherwise you wouldn't be able to be living in an HDB flat. That's the final test.

CSJ: I think you're making this leap of logic that even Bruce Hawking would find did hard to follow. You are saying that without you without this entire government, we wouldn't be here? A little presumptuous, don't you think?

LKY: Your Honour, I'm saying -

CSJ: You see, Mr Lee, in Hong Kong people thrive without you and your system, in Taiwan people thrive without you and your system, in Korea people thrive without you and your system, and you are coming to this court and telling me that what we have right now is all because of you and your system that you have created. I think you are making too much of a presumption.

Judge: "Dr Chee, I'm going to stop this line of cross-examination."