Do you think the doctor is guilty too ?
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Just read in the paper that the CK Tang boss has just hopped in and out of jail for trying to buy a kidney ...
personally, i think both the sellers and this buyer were victims of their circumstances ...
one side was trying to make better lives for themselves, to dig their way out of poverty ... the other was just fighting to live ......
so if organ trading is a crime, and the middle man who brought the two sides together has been punished too, what about the doctor in question ? ....
I find his defense of being just the unknowing party a bit weak ... from the straits times feature a little while back, it appears that it's not the first time he's performed such an operation ? ... does he have a duty and responsibility to find out if the ops he's performing contravenes the law or not ? ....
or the medical establishment protects their own ? ...
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wanna bet
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What to do. Doctors just have to follow SO CALLED protocol and they are mostly safe. Like my dad, the surgeon operating on him told us that he had to make certain decisions while operating on my dad and those decisions killed my dad in the OT. We asked them why did not they ask us first since we are just outside the OT, they told us it is within the protocol that in those situations, the surgeons can make certain decisions without consulting the family. Now my dad is gone, who to blame? Their so called protocol has protected them but it killed my dad.
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Originally posted by gasband:
What to do. Doctors just have to follow SO CALLED protocol and they are mostly safe. Like my dad, the surgeon operating on him told us that he had to make certain decisions while operating on my dad and those decisions killed my dad in the OT. We asked them why did not they ask us first since we are just outside the OT, they told us it is within the protocol that in those situations, the surgeons can make certain decisions without consulting the family. Now my dad is gone, who to blame? Their so called protocol has protected them but it killed my dad.
Cant even sue them? Im sure there wll b loopholes somewhere..
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the straits times expose was very illuminating ....
apparently, there's a veritable organ trading industry in indonesia .... wretched poor indonesians would get flown to singapore, have one of their kidneys taken out, be paid a sum of money, and then fly back to a better life .....
well ... these chaps could not have had their kidneys taken out by a butcher with a carving knife right ? ....
so what has been happening all along ? ... or the docs who performed such ops chose to just shut eye and close both ears ? .....
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Originally posted by RedizAlertz:
Cant even sue them? Im sure there wll b loopholes somewhere..
Unless I am rich like the chairman of Tangs, where can I afford the legal fees cos as the police told us, it will take a very long tussle. Furthermore, why would I want to put my mother through the agony again.
Right now, it is under the Coroner's Court, if the Coroner decides the Hospital is liable, the Police will take it up as a criminal case, if not, it will be case closed after the Coroner make his decision.
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Originally posted by gasband:
Unless I am rich like the chairman of Tangs, where can I afford the legal fees cos as the police told us, it will take a very long tussle. Furthermore, why would I want to put my mother through the agony again.
Right now, it is under the Coroner's Court, if the Coroner decides the Hospital is liable, the Police will take it up as a criminal case, if not, it will be case closed after the Coroner make his decision.
Damn..
Im sorry to hear that.. -
Originally posted by Fatum:
the straits times expose was very illuminating ....
apparently, there's a veritable organ trading industry in indonesia .... wretched poor indonesians would get flown to singapore, have one of their kidneys taken out, be paid a sum of money, and then fly back to a better life .....
well ... these chaps could not have had their kidneys taken out by a butcher with a carving knife right ? ....
so what has been happening all along ? ... or the docs who performed such ops chose to just shut eye and close both ears ? .....
I guess thats the gray area. THey are supposed to have some common sense. Who would not doubt if we see a chinese guy bring in a malay guy and say "take his kidney, he is my relative". But as I said, all they need to do is to get them to sign a declaration form and they are protected, whether it makes common sense or not.
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Originally posted by RedizAlertz:
Damn..
Im sorry to hear that..Well it is coming to 6 months, and to be honest...i Just want to move on and hope the case is closed sooner rather than later, regardless what the result is.
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Originally posted by gasband:
I guess thats the gray area. THey are supposed to have some common sense. Who would not doubt if we see a chinese guy bring in a malay guy and say "take his kidney, he is my relative". But as I said, all they need to do is to get them to sign a declaration form and they are protected, whether it makes common sense or not.
wham ! ... nail on the head .....
that's why i'm so cynical of docs .... and lawyers ... even those I count as my friends ...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
wham ! ... nail on the head .....
that's why i'm so cynical of docs .... and lawyers ... even those I count as my friends ...
I guess doctors still is a noble job. They still do save lives. I guess they dun feel good seeing people die under their hands too. But there are some who get indifferent and they take it as a job. As for me, it is hard for me to criticise doctors. I have a very good doctor now taking care of my diabetic condition but I guess it will take a long time for me to be able to step into that hospital again or even consider to go for any major surgery.
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Originally posted by gasband:
I guess doctors still is a noble job. They still do save lives. I guess they dun feel good seeing people die under their hands too. But there are some who get indifferent and they take it as a job. As for me, it is hard for me to criticise doctors. I have a very good doctor now taking care of my diabetic condition but I guess it will take a long time for me to be able to step into that hospital again or even consider to go for any major surgery.
well ... there ARE good lawyers too you know ...
i don't think too many people actually choose to study law or medicine for noble reasons anymore, certainly not in Singapore ....
they all want that beemer and condo too badly .... nothing wrong with that, i want them too ... but the very nature of their profession calls for higher ethical considerations and personal convictions ...
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Originally posted by Fatum:
well ... there ARE good lawyers too you know ...
i don't think too many people actually choose to study law or medicine for noble reasons anymore, certainly not in Singapore ....
they all want that beemer and condo too badly .... nothing wrong with that, i want them too ... but the very nature of their profession calls for higher ethical considerations and personal convictions ...
Its true. Nothing wrong with wanting to be rich. But being a doctor requires more than just the skills to be rich, it needs a person with high morals and ethics.
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I onli respect those docs & lawyers with integrities...IMO, the real doctors are the one who offer to help in the 3rd world country with no obligations.
The rest are simply in the occupation of the doctor.
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another glaring question that I think has to be answered ....
wat was the ethics committee doing ? ....
if every organ transplant donation has to pass through the scrutiny of the ethics committee .... why wasn't any of the cases caught before ? ...
who actually sits on the ethics committee ? ... more doctors ? ....
did they just glance at the statutory declarations and let everything slide by ? ....
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Singapore retail tycoon Tang Wee Sung was on Wednesday jailed for two hours and fined S$17,000 for lying to get approval for a kidney transplant and for organ trading, the Straits Times newspaper said.his conviction last week, was given a short sentence due to his "extreme ill health", the Straits Times cited the sentencing judge as saying.
does that mean a ill health person can get pardon everytime he commit a crime?
to me it is illogical that the person who donating it is sentence for 2 weeks, which he could not have know that it is offence in singapore to sell a kidney.
while the person who is singaporean is sentence to only 2 hrs? just check in , bath and check out.!!!
rich man power???
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personally think it is ok.. willing buyer n willing selling. mistake is the process should have done oversea since it is against the law here.
The doc infact is trying to save another live (expensive one).
but the middle man is trying to make such hi profit is not justifiable!!
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Define ethics.
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Hmm... dun get me wrong but i think that it is not wrong to actually purchase an organ from the person him/herself.
forgive me as i did not read the article on this news and thus what i said might not relevent to the this thread itself.
I do find that it is wrong to purchase an organ from the black market where you do not have any idea where it came from but if you are actually purchasing from the person him or herself... why would it consitute as a criminal offence in logical sense?
Maybe i need to read up the law books to find the logic of this proceeding...
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Originally posted by reyes:
does that mean a ill health person can get pardon everytime he commit a crime?
to me it is illogical that the person who donating it is sentence for 2 weeks, which he could not have know that it is offence in singapore to sell a kidney.
while the person who is singaporean is sentence to only 2 hrs? just check in , bath and check out.!!!
rich man power???
I know how it looks, that the rich can get away with everything, but to me, he's as much the victim as the organ sellers .... one's just trying to live, the other's trying to make their way out of poverty ... we can't fault them for that ...
it's the middlemen, the doctors, who skimmed off both sides, and the ethics committee that did nothing all this while ... that are the diabolical ones ... can the doctors hide behind the statutory declarations that appeared to be so blatantly false, and absolves themselves of all responsibilities that way ? .... I find it all very very suspicious .... especially when it appears that we have an entire industry in indonesia all geared towards transferring organs from person A to person B in Singapore .... it's not a one off special case at all ....
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Ironic.
Someone has caught the government/doctor/somebody is always at fault virus.
"I think it really boils down to your attitude ... stop blaming others and circumstances, and strive more for yourself, you'd be a happier person ...."
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"back to the same advice for you boy ... don't blame your surroundings for your circumstances, including the goverment, you try to blame them for expensive ipods today, you'd blame them for rain tomorrow, or you not being able to find a girlfriend a few years down the line ? ... trying to prove the link won't make you any more cleverer, not with google and wiki around, but it does reflects a lot on your attitude towards life ....
you want something, a better life for yourself, you work for it, don't ack too much about how the grass is greener on the other side and how your path could have been paved better for you ...."
So somebody is pointing fingers now?
Some hypocrite huh?
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Oooo ... that still hurts you so much eh ? ....
maybe it's time to grow up, small boy ....
but perhaps drawing the distinction between the two cases in that small cranium is a bit difficult for you .....
after all, you are the sort who blame the goverment for the price of ipods and for tree branches falling onto cars .....
you know, it's really nut cases like you, poh ah pak, and andrew who stiffles the real issues that crop up ... but tis alright ... I suppose as the country opens up, people would learn to filter out all the white noises from the likes of you ....
so you're hungry for more ? ...
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Next time when folks go service their cars or go see a doctor, they will be required to undertake a polygraph.
Who knows? According to Fatum, they are also guilty.
Somebody buys a car, takes it to the mechanic for servicing, finally found out the car was stolen. Then mechanic liable?
Maybe you can also apply this "logic" to banks. Not too long ago, loan sharks used bank accounts of victims to collect money from debtors. The loan shark was liable to be prosecuted, so are the victims. Taking your advice into consideration. Maybe it's time they enact laws to make banks liable for such transactions.
If you had the brains to understand the case, it was clearly stated in the news that transplants needs approval from the ethics committee. These days difficult to be surgeon.
Not only you have to be good in your skills, but you also need to be a CSI, a lawyer and a judge. Your cognitive skills are extremely screwed, can't seem to differentiate and analyse issues objectively.
Hahaha.......so which of my post is without evidential backing? Did I use profanities liberally?
If you take time to look at my post, I seldom use expletives, unless maybe to Gazelle. If you have problems understanding economic issues, suggest you pick up an economic textbook to read before you start discussing.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Next time when folks go service their cars or go see a doctor, they will be required to undertake a polygraph.
Who knows? According to Fatum, they are also guilty.
Somebody buys a car, takes it to the mechanic for servicing, finally found out the car was stolen. Then mechanic liable?
Maybe you can also apply this "logic" to banks. Not too long ago, loan sharks used bank accounts of victims to collect money from debtors. The loan shark was liable to be prosecuted, so are the victims. Taking your advice into consideration. Maybe it's time they enact laws to make banks liable for such transactions.
If you had the brains to understand the case, it was clearly stated in the news that transplants needs approval from the ethics committee. These days difficult to be surgeon.
Not only you have to be good in your skills,
but you also need to be a CSI, a lawyer and a judge. Your cognitive skills are extremely screwed, can't seem to differentiate and analyse issues objectively.
Hahaha.......so which of my post is without evidential backing?
so now I talk about A, you're just going to sing the direct opposite tune right ? .... this is getting cute ... but it shows how juvenile you are ... trying to do this out of spite, eh ? ...
if you know how to read at all ... i did mention that transplants requires approval from an ethics committee .... so the ethics commitee would simply take the declarations of a chinese tycoon in singapore and an indonesian peasant farmer that they are relatives by blood or marriage and just rubber stamp things ? ... a doctor is not a vehicle mechanic, they are professionals who are required to uphold a higher set of ethics and standards .... in any case, the mechanic example is quite frankly, stupid, for you to compare buying a car, taking it to the mechanics, and to try and blame the mechanics after finding out it's stolen is like blaming the doctor who delivers your wife's baby after finding out that you're not the child's father .... a child would know to go and blame the fellow whom you've brought it from, no ? ..... but then again ....since it came from you, a fellow who blames the goverment for falling tree trunks and pricey ipods ... no wonder you'd go barking up the wrong tree ...
btw ... you know, if you knowingly handle stolen goods, or a bank knowingly launders dirty money, it's a crime too ....