Sg Locals flowing Out
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Your unemployment figure in the other thread is still showing 2-3% unemployed people. Why do u bring in local to foreigner ratio ? R they the same thing ?
If u talk unique singapore culture, u seemed to be assuming most people r emigrated out while most people r immigrated in. However fact is tat most people in singapore stay in singapore and therefore a unique culture can exist.
1) I brought in the post for this statement:
So we got PHANTOM JOBS being created for the local workforce and got VIRTUAL improvements in unemployment figures
2) Seemed to be assuming?
What's wrong with asking for views by using an "if" scenario?
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
In a globalized environment, it is indeed very difficult for any particular way of life to develop into a unique culture, more so in the future than it was in the past. If somebody started doing something that is worthwhile emulating, then it is emulated everyway, not just Singapore. If it is difficult for Singapore to develop its own culture because of moving population, then this moving population is also affecting the culture of others.
As it is, new cultures evolved for people of all countries, the Generation Y, the yuppies and so on...and this is borderless. but, there would still be something that would be peculiar to a particular place, due to its weather, the profile of its population...
it really didn't take very long for Singlish to evolve into something uniquely Singaporean.
Some cuisines popular among Singaporean are being identified as Singaporean, even though you still find Laksa in Penang but they have to call it Penang Laksa.
Even food court is something many foreigners would associate with Singapore even though we find such places in many other Asian countries.
May be Singapore would become a city so international that you see images of every other nations here, in that case, even the local born would have to be international to survive. It is not only the foreign born kids who prefer McDonalds, and the local kids want only chwee Queh.
Interesting, and especially good point about the Singlish part
This reminds me of a recent news article about Sg food in Russia :D
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Some may think that those who emigrated are the better educated ones.
However, they are those who had 'mediocre' exam results based on Singapore's meritocracy system. They couldn't go further after their ITE education but they are accepted by colleges and universities in other countries. They found jobs after graduation and eventually decided to settled overseas.
Had they stayed on in Singapore, they would have been branded as losers.
Googoomuck,
I can assure you that most of the Singaporeans in the UK work for international companies that are well recognised in the world. I had qualified to enter NUS but chose to pursue my education abroad anyways. This is also similar to the Singaporeans I have met here and we are lucky to have study abroad because either we are on full scholarship or our parents saved money for us to study abroad.
I now work for one of the leading aircraft manufacturer (OEM) in the world. My salary is almost 3 times the salary of an aerospace engineer in ST Aerospace in Singapore. I think your comment about overseas Singaporeans is unfair and unjust.
Cheers
Danny
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Originally posted by klokey:
Googoomuck,
I can assure you that most of the Singaporeans in the UK work for international companies that are well recognised in the world. I had qualified to enter NUS but chose to pursue my education abroad anyways. This is also similar to the Singaporeans I have met here and we are lucky to have study abroad because either we are on full scholarship or our parents saved money for us to study abroad.
I now work for one of the leading aircraft manufacturer (OEM) in the world. My salary is almost 3 times the salary of an aerospace engineer in ST Aerospace in Singapore. I think your comment about overseas Singaporeans is unfair and unjust.
Cheers
Danny
Googoomuck did not say all, he is referring to some. -
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Sad. Thanks to the ruling party, leehsienlong, dictator lee. When I walk on the street and notice so many foreigners makes me think if I am in my own country at all.No need to travel overseas to see another culture now. They have all landed on our shores.. I think my major concern is the bad 3rd world, selfish, greedy, low class habits they are bringing with them while they come here expected to be treated like kings and queens cause our government made it so. But then who am i to complain when there are also some local women/men with the same thing kind of greedy, selfish, 3rd world, the world owes me a living mentality that makes living in Singapore such a chore.
I blame it on parents who teach their kids to ignore other people to do whatever makes them happy and to grab whatever is available when it is available even when they do not need it just cause it free or they paid minimum for it. Have you seen old people, parents teaching the kids to grab seats on the bus when other old people needed it.I had even see one kid, all able bodied, threw a tantrum to get a seat from a seated passenger. In the end an old person and the neighbouring passenger gave up the seat for the kid and his parent who were ungracious and took the seat like its their entitlement. look at the new parents now with their prams, expecting others to give way to them and the mothers giving off that vibe that they have given birth and therefore, they expect to be treated with the deference of a queen. If this is the type of future we are building here with our own people, then I rather give up my place here, and live in some place with more charm, grace and civility.
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Originally posted by mistyblue:
No need to travel overseas to see another culture now. They have all landed on our shores.. I think my major concern is the bad 3rd world, selfish, greedy, low class habits they are bringing with them while they come here expected to be treated like kings and queens cause our government made it so. But then who am i to complain when there are also some local women/men with the same thing kind of greedy, selfish, 3rd world, the world owes me a living mentality that makes living in Singapore such a chore.
I blame it on parents who teach their kids to ignore other people to do whatever makes them happy and to grab whatever is available when it is available even when they do not need it just cause it free or they paid minimum for it. Have you seen old people, parents teaching the kids to grab seats on the bus when other old people needed it.I had even see one kid, all able bodied, threw a tantrum to get a seat from a seated passenger. In the end an old person and the neighbouring passenger gave up the seat for the kid and his parent who were ungracious and took the seat like its their entitlement. look at the new parents now with their prams, expecting others to give way to them and the mothers giving off that vibe that they have given birth and therefore, they expect to be treated with the deference of a queen. If this is the type of future we are building here with our own people, then I rather give up my place here, and live in some place with more charm, grace and civility.
Dear mistyblue, it has got to do with culture, upbringing, individuals' character/personality as well.
True of what you said. I have met with a fair share of such people you mentioned. Many people just want their ways at the expense of others. Perhaps, people like that should think of what happen if others do the same to them.
So are you planning to migrate?
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Originally posted by mistyblue:
No need to travel overseas to see another culture now. They have all landed on our shores.. I think my major concern is the bad 3rd world, selfish, greedy, low class habits they are bringing with them while they come here expected to be treated like kings and queens cause our government made it so. But then who am i to complain when there are also some local women/men with the same thing kind of greedy, selfish, 3rd world, the world owes me a living mentality that makes living in Singapore such a chore.
I blame it on parents who teach their kids to ignore other people to do whatever makes them happy and to grab whatever is available when it is available even when they do not need it just cause it free or they paid minimum for it. Have you seen old people, parents teaching the kids to grab seats on the bus when other old people needed it.I had even see one kid, all able bodied, threw a tantrum to get a seat from a seated passenger. In the end an old person and the neighbouring passenger gave up the seat for the kid and his parent who were ungracious and took the seat like its their entitlement. look at the new parents now with their prams, expecting others to give way to them and the mothers giving off that vibe that they have given birth and therefore, they expect to be treated with the deference of a queen. If this is the type of future we are building here with our own people, then I rather give up my place here, and live in some place with more charm, grace and civility.
I agree what you say, but there is not point of blaming the old generation for all this.
I suggest probably you can propose some solution to prevent it getting worse..
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Originally posted by Fantagf:
Dear mistyblue, it has got to do with culture, upbringing, individuals' character/personality as well.
True of what you said. I have met with a fair share of such people you mentioned. Many people just want their ways at the expense of others. Perhaps, people like that should think of what happen if others do the same to them.
So are you planning to migrate?
I always think that Sinagpore, its impossible to retire. I never wanted to work till the day i step into my coffin if I can afford one by the end of my days. I had toyed with migrating but i know I am tied here due to family. If I am alone, I would have choosen to work overseas maybe HK, London or SF. My last trip to SF, when I was heading to fly back to Singapore, it felt as if I was leaving my home going back to a foreign land call Singapore.
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Originally posted by Chunseah:
I agree what you say, but there is not point of blaming the old generation for all this.
I suggest probably you can propose some solution to prevent it getting worse..
I can only influence and choose what I do with myself. Proposing is like empty talk that the govt do without fully understanding the situation and root cause. I choose not to feel so much for the transgressions from fellow Singaproean and foreigners. But it is hard not to feel disappointed that for all our achievements, some of our people seemed to have regressed and lost their meaning as a part of humanity to the materialism that Singapore promotes. If only you had heard of the way the people in other countries view about life and living. Maybe this is what really, people wanted after all and Singapore offers only materialism with little cultivation on the spirit and soul. It feels empty in this land. A sense of disconnectedness. Feeling of uncaring from everyone around you that you are not important enough for the system, the people, fellow members of society to even have a though about that you are taken as an economic number and a wiget in the Singapore Inc. to help someone else make more money with your life.
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Originally posted by mistyblue:
I always think that Sinagpore, its impossible to retire. I never wanted to work till the day i step into my coffin if I can afford one by the end of my days. I had toyed with migrating but i know I am tied here due to family. If I am alone, I would have choosen to work overseas maybe HK, London or SF. My last trip to SF, when I was heading to fly back to Singapore, it felt as if I was leaving my home going back to a foreign land call Singapore.
Singapore is not a good place for retirement. Keep your fingers crossed that one day you will have opportunity to migrate overseas. Can't imagine the future in Singapore. Life is getting more and more tough here.
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Originally posted by klokey:
Googoomuck,
I can assure you that most of the Singaporeans in the UK work for international companies that are well recognised in the world. I had qualified to enter NUS but chose to pursue my education abroad anyways. This is also similar to the Singaporeans I have met here and we are lucky to have study abroad because either we are on full scholarship or our parents saved money for us to study abroad.
I now work for one of the leading aircraft manufacturer (OEM) in the world. My salary is almost 3 times the salary of an aerospace engineer in ST Aerospace in Singapore. I think your comment about overseas Singaporeans is unfair and unjust.
Cheers
Danny
A typo error may have caused a misunderstanding. It should be "there", not "they"
Fantagf is right. I'm saying some of those who emigrated are 'mediocre' ones who made it good overseas because these are ordinary people who can do extraordinary things if they are given the opportunities. In Singapore, It's The End for these ITE grads who could not make it to Polys, JCs or Uni.
<Some may think that those who emigrated are the better educated ones.
However, they are those who had 'mediocre' exam results based on Singapore's meritocracy system. They couldn't go further after their ITE education but they are accepted by colleges and universities in other countries. They found jobs after graduation and eventually decided to settled overseas.
Had they stayed on in Singapore, they would have been branded as losers.>
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... it doesn't take an opposition party, nor is it affirmative that an opposition party will ruin SIngapore in 5 years... because the FAP, is doing exactly just that - progressively ruining Singapore in untold numbers of years...
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
A typo error may have caused a misunderstanding. It should be "there", not "they"
Fantagf is right. I'm saying some of those who emigrated are 'mediocre' ones who made it good overseas because these are ordinary people who can do extraordinary things if they are given the opportunities. In Singapore, It's The End for these ITE grads who could not make it to Polys, JCs or Uni.
<Some may think that those who emigrated are the better educated ones.
However, they are those who had 'mediocre' exam results based on Singapore's meritocracy system. They couldn't go further after their ITE education but they are accepted by colleges and universities in other countries. They found jobs after graduation and eventually decided to settled overseas.
Had they stayed on in Singapore, they would have been branded as losers.>
well, in most countries, there are urban area where the rat race is on, and there are rural area, where the cost of living is low and the way of life is relaxed. The people who can't stay competitive in the urban area will than have an option to live in the rural area, and provide their service which is essential to a small town community. Having a degree in law wouldn't be very useful in the rural area, as compared to a mechanic.
For Singapore, there aren't really any rural area though...
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Originally posted by HyperFocal:
... it doesn't take an opposition party, nor is it affirmative that an opposition party will ruin SIngapore in 5 years... because the FAP, is doing exactly just that - progressively ruining Singapore in untold numbers of years...
REad : http://business.theage.com.au/business/doubt-lingers-for-abc-and-d-for-debt-20080911-4er7.html one of the ways to ruin. -
So we got PHANTOM JOBS being created for the local workforce and got VIRTUAL improvements in unemployment figures
So u r saying the "phantom jobs" can be so statistically significant tat it can adjust the percentage of unemployment rate completely ?
Seemed to be assuming?
What's wrong with asking for views by using an "if" scenario?
Then I am right u r assuming since the word "if" is already stating assumptions. Furthermore, your scenario tat EVERYONE moves out of singapore is really far fetched and completely un-realistic
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
So u r saying the "phantom jobs" can be so statistically significant tat it can adjust the percentage of unemployment rate completely ?
Then I am right u r assuming since the word "if" is already stating assumptions. Furthermore, your scenario tat EVERYONE moves out of singapore is really far fetched and completely un-realistic
So u r saying the "phantom jobs" can be so statistically significant tat it can adjust the percentage of unemployment rate completely ?
That's not what I said. That's what I quoted from another forum. Don't put words into my mouth saying that I said it. You really have a tendency for such things.
And with ~3 mil labour force in Sg, 0.1% is about 3000 pple hor. And assuming half must be locals and half foreigners, that is about 1500 pple... With so many SMEs and small companies in Singapore, reaching 1500 is not hard at all.
Then I am right u r assuming since the word "if" is already stating assumptions. Furthermore, your scenario tat EVERYONE moves out of singapore is really far fetched and completely un-realistic
Did I say you are wrong? Duh... You are of course right... (Yeah, go celebrate)
And where in the world can you find a rule that an "if" scenario cannot be far fetched???
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Then wat r u trying to say ? First u pull in foreign to local ratio, then u pull in phantom employees tat change the figure then u tell me u r not talking about these things. SO wat is your point in pulling these 2 issues into the picture ?That's not what I said. That's what I quoted from another forum. Don't put words into my mouth saying that I said it. You really have a tendency for such things.
And with ~3 mil labour force in Sg, 0.1% is about 3000 pple hor. And assuming half must be locals and half foreigners, that is about 1500 pple... With so many SMEs and small companies in Singapore, reaching 1500 is not hard at all.
Wat r u trying to say here ? If 3 million people r in singapore labour force and if suddenly the 1 million foreigner disappear, who r gonna take over these 1 million jobs ? Even if everyone, including 12 years - 70 years r working, they probably cannot cover up such numbers.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Then wat r u trying to say ? First u pull in foreign to local ratio, then u pull in phantom employees tat change the figure then u tell me u r not talking about these things. SO wat is your point in pulling these 2 issues into the picture ?
Wat r u trying to say here ? If 3 million people r in singapore labour force and if suddenly the 1 million foreigner disappear, who r gonna take over these 1 million jobs ? Even if everyone, including 12 years - 70 years r working, they probably cannot cover up such numbers.
Then wat r u trying to say ? First u pull in foreign to local ratio, then u pull in phantom employees tat change the figure then u tell me u r not talking about these things. SO wat is your point in pulling these 2 issues into the picture ?
I'm wondering why this is affecting your mental state so much when I merely quoted a post from elsewhere.
You mean I need to give reasons why I post something? Who gives you the right and authority to request so?
Anyway, the main reason has been stated by another forumer who understood.
Wat r u trying to say here ? If 3 million people r in singapore labour force and if suddenly the 1 million foreigner disappear, who r gonna take over these 1 million jobs ? Even if everyone, including 12 years - 70 years r working, they probably cannot cover up such numbers.
I'm doing some calculations. Again, does this affect you mentally again?
Why suddenly ask me what if 1 million foreigners suddenly disappear? Did my post above in anyway says that they should????
Or are you (yet again) trying to quote my post, and refer to something else in another thread?
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Wat r u trying to say here ? If 3 million people r in singapore labour force and if suddenly the 1 million foreigner disappear, who r gonna take over these 1 million jobs ? Even if everyone, including 12 years - 70 years r working, they probably cannot cover up such numbers.
short answer, nothing. singapore will not sink if 1m leaves. in fact, it takes the weight off the island. what a reprieve!
i won't want to go into lengths explaining myself, but just mentioning the below to explain me saying so:
there are as many variables as fixed factors that will mold the nation to sustain itself. you are assuming everything is transfixed in the present infrastructure that will cause singapore to fall thru' the cracks.
if you earns $3.5k/mth now and next month, your pay is halved. would you die?
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One thing for sure, when i was studying and doing a project on the GDP of singapore, i found that in the 70s, 80s and 90s the GDP are all double digits except for oil crisis, financial crisis and 85' crisis, and at that time we dun much foreigner here, except our tradition Malaysians helping us out, we dun even have FTs to churn us up, but today, which is my generation, we see a drop in GDP to single digits even with high tech industry and a full force of over a million foreigners (not malaysians), so what are we looking at, do foreigners and FT really help us???
There is a saying goes, if your stomach cannot take so much food, take it light, you will be strong and healthy, but if you eat and eat, you become unhealthy with a fat belly stomach and other problems.
I would say that our govt are over aggressive in their pursue of economy excellent, and the backlash side effect are begining to show as economy become bearish.
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Originally posted by wheelcamp:
So it is not right to state "There has always been one identity, Singaporean, in four different versions, the Chinese, the Malays, the Indians and the Others." Identity is more than just looks. Include accent, cultural level, mindset etc. Many similarities developed and unique and part of Singapore identity.If I understand what you are saying, then NO, there will never be a uniquely Singaporean identity. There never was (so there is no back to square 1) and there will never be.
simply because we are a multi racial multi religious society. culturally we are different and we respect and accept such difference. In our early history we had Chinese (mostly accestor worshippers) married local Malay and then became Peranakan (don't know why then they did not have to be converted to Muslim). There is still some interracial marriages, but I can't see how a new race could be evolved in the future called Singaporean.
We will only have Singaporean who would identify themselves as Singaporean. The day they migrate to Australia, they become Australian, what Singapore identity can you find in them?
When we talk about developing Singaporean identity, we are talking about those identified by place of birth alone.
If you were born in Singapore, what Singaporean identity comes with you?
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Originally posted by redDUST:
short answer, nothing. singapore will not sink if 1m leaves. in fact, it takes the weight off the island. what a reprieve!
i won't want to go into lengths explaining myself, but just mentioning the below to explain me saying so:
there are as many variables as fixed factors that will mold the nation to sustain itself. you are assuming everything is transfixed in the present infrastructure that will cause singapore to fall thru' the cracks.
if you earns $3.5k/mth now and next month, your pay is halved. would you die?
if you earns $3.5k/mth now and next month, your pay is halved. would you die?
depends on whether you have taken any loan, how many people you have to support, how long is this "halved" going to last, what is the chance of you earning $3.5K/mth again?
if 1 million foreign workers disappear from Singapore today, will Singaporeans fill in the gap and provide the services? these 1 millions aren't tourists here having fund leh. hehehe....
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
If I understand what you are saying, then NO, there will never be a uniquely Singaporean identity. There never was (so there is no back to square 1) and there will never be.
simply because we are a multi racial multi religious society. culturally we are different and we respect and accept such difference. In our early history we had Chinese (mostly accestor worshippers) married local Malay and then became Peranakan (don't know why then they did not have to be converted to Muslim). There is still some interracial marriages, but I can't see how a new race could be evolved in the future called Singaporean.
We will only have Singaporean who would identify themselves as Singaporean. The day they migrate to Australia, they become Australian, what Singapore identity can you find in them?
When we talk about developing Singaporean identity, we are talking about those identified by place of birth alone.
If you were born in Singapore, what Singaporean identity comes with you?
I'm thinking now... I should have came here to source for information when I did my politics SS module 2 years ago... on the part of identity and culture
:D
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
if you earns $3.5k/mth now and next month, your pay is halved. would you die?
depends on whether you have taken any loan, how many people you have to support, how long is this "halved" going to last, what is the chance of you earning $3.5K/mth again?
if 1 million foreign workers disappear from Singapore today, will Singaporeans fill in the gap and provide the services? these 1 millions aren't tourists here having fund leh. hehehe....
There are just too many factors to talk about these.
True, some FWs and FTs are definitely needed and required. But all 100% of them??? Question would then be... how many of these 1 million can we not do without?
Anyway, there are still good and friendly FWs around, and these are definitely very welcomed, as least to me. Eg yesterday at Boon Keng KFC, there was this PRC lady serving us at the counter. Somehow, I can see her enthusiasm in serving, and her quick smile and everything you can expect of from a service staff. This is someone indeed better than quite a number of local service staff.
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Originally posted by angel7030:
One thing for sure, when i was studying and doing a project on the GDP of singapore, i found that in the 70s, 80s and 90s the GDP are all double digits except for oil crisis, financial crisis and 85' crisis, and at that time we dun much foreigner here, except our tradition Malaysians helping us out, we dun even have FTs to churn us up, but today, which is my generation, we see a drop in GDP to single digits even with high tech industry and a full force of over a million foreigners (not malaysians), so what are we looking at, do foreigners and FT really help us???
There is a saying goes, if your stomach cannot take so much food, take it light, you will be strong and healthy, but if you eat and eat, you become unhealthy with a fat belly stomach and other problems.
I would say that our govt are over aggressive in their pursue of economy excellent, and the backlash side effect are begining to show as economy become bearish.
While I agree with you that the govt may be a little too agressive in their pursue of excellence, there are some points you need to note.
1. GDP was growing at double digits in the beginning, but the bases were low. From 1896 billion US in 1970 to 11,730 billion US in 1980, the increase of 9834 billion was 6 fold! but from 36,843 billion US in 1990 to 92,720 billion US in 2000, the increase was a hefty 55,886 billion, but in terms of percentage, but it was 2.5 times.
2. Last time Singaporeans have many children, and their parents worked as hawkers, cashiers, teachers...that time O level already can become government officers, U grad really big thing. Now our generation, dont want to have many children, even with incentives, running hawkers stall is very time consuming, I understand every years there are over 2000 A levels with 3 to 4 As. Our generation, or rather your generation, are more highly qualified, more choices of higher levels jobs.....times have changed.
As long as the foreign workers are here to do what we don't want or can't do, I have no complain, even malaysia is getting in over 2 millions foreign workers otherwise their rubber and palm oil plantations would be left to the monkey.