I'm wondering why this is affecting your mental state so much when I merely quoted a post from elsewhere.
You mean I need to give reasons why I post something? Who gives you the right and authority to request so?
If tat is the case then I can also post why do u write something totally out of point int he discussion and if u fail to substantiate, then u just proved to others u r a troll and disrupting the flow of the argument
Why suddenly ask me what if 1 million foreigners suddenly disappear? Did my post above in anyway says that they should????
No, but why can't I repeat a point which i had said before which is relevant to the discussion ? Who gives u the right and authority of u to request I give reasons for posting something ?
short answer, nothing. singapore will not sink if 1m leaves. in fact, it takes the weight off the island. what a reprieve!
i won't want to go into lengths explaining myself, but just mentioning the below to explain me saying so:
there are as many variables as fixed factors that will mold the nation to sustain itself. you are assuming everything is transfixed in the present infrastructure that will cause singapore to fall thru' the cracks.
if you earns $3.5k/mth now and next month, your pay is halved. would you die?
I appreciate u giving out a short answer but it is too optimistic to think tat 1 million job holder dissappear and business will be as usual for singapore in the long run. If there r too little job holder, growth is stiffened and businesses r affected. Cost spiralled out of control, constructions r halted project r postponed and probably relocated. Then u will see singapore really sinking in economy after a period of time. If u talk about your pay, lets say your pay is reduced halved in the long run. Wat will happened to u ? U will probably go out lesser, enjoy a lesser quality of life.
One thing for sure, when i was studying and doing a project on the GDP of singapore, i found that in the 70s, 80s and 90s the GDP are all double digits except for oil crisis, financial crisis and 85' crisis, and at that time we dun much foreigner here, except our tradition Malaysians helping us out, we dun even have FTs to churn us up, but today, which is my generation, we see a drop in GDP to single digits even with high tech industry and a full force of over a million foreigners (not malaysians), so what are we looking at, do foreigners and FT really help us???
developing countries get a high rate of growth easier. The more developed u r the less u can grow. If u realy wanna see the rate of growth it is really relatively about the same level except at crisis period
http://indexmundi.com/singapore/gdp_real_growth_rate.html
Why don't we ask the following... if too little job holder in singapore, will it cause the companies to move out. Yes because the cost is gonna be much more expensive. If there r no foreign workers will we be forcing singaporean to do jobs they do not like ? Yes because someone has to built buildings etc
Put it tis way... economist put us as no unemployment rate and any lower it is bad for economy. The balance can be striked by controlling flow of foreigners. Should we follow academics or not in employment rate ?
Originally posted by eagle:There are just too many factors to talk about these.
True, some FWs and FTs are definitely needed and required. But all 100% of them??? Question would then be... how many of these 1 million can we not do without?
Anyway, there are still good and friendly FWs around, and these are definitely very welcomed, as least to me. Eg yesterday at Boon Keng KFC, there was this PRC lady serving us at the counter. Somehow, I can see her enthusiasm in serving, and her quick smile and everything you can expect of from a service staff. This is someone indeed better than quite a number of local service staff.
I will say that we need FWs, but the FTs need to be carefully qualified. Maids, construction workers, those doing jobs such as rubbish collectors, cleaners..and now even the copi ah soh are those I have no problem with.
But those in the office, the none expats (meaning they are not senior enough even in their own organisation to be given housing), or foreigners here on local term, are the ones I really have problem with. Some Australians are here on local term, live in HDB. Some PRC here on tourist visa, got job on local term and squeezed in some HDB to reduce costs, some local companies, recruited philippino architect as cheap assistant, but 4 to 5 into one small condo ....all these people, regardless of whether they come from....are called FT and not much of a talent to me.
If tat is the case then I can also post why do u write something totally out of point int he discussion and if u fail to substantiate, then u just proved to others u r a troll and disrupting the flow of the argument
Somehow, only you fail to notice the reason.
Any reason why in your quote above, you failed to quote too that I mentioned some other forumer has already given the reason? Selective quoting and reading from you for some unknown purposes it seems.
No, but why can't I repeat a point which i had said before which is relevant to the discussion ? Who gives u the right and authority of u to request I give reasons for posting something ?
Of course. You have all the right to quote my post, and post something totally not related to my post at all.
Go ahead. It's not the first time you done it anyway. I presume you are quoting my post but not asking me anything at all.
Nobody's asking the 1 million foreigners to leave en bloc. Now that the economy depends on them, it's quite redundant to ask such a qn right. This is like a chicken and egg issue. Why even have so many foreigners in the first place if most jobs created have gone to them? The answer is so as to maintain Sg's vibrant economy. More companies, more economy growth, more tax revenue in the coffers and Sg looks gd still.
Ever wondered why the govt only releases unemployment rate for residents (prs included)? Because the stats for the no. of Singaporeans unemployed would be too embarassing. The unemployment percentage is also reduced by the massive numbers of new PRs employed.
Foreigners are here to depress wages so that Singapore remains a popular destination for foreign investment. The tax collected from such FDIs contribute greatly to govt revenue. Such a strategy is only for developing countries like Msia. The idea was to receive the expertise and stand on our own but Sg has hardly ever done so. The rote learning environment due to our education system has hardly helped entrepreneurship either. We will forever remain a hunting ground for cheap labour if this strategy continues. Rich poor divide can only widen.
Vote wisely the next election and blood a new generation...very slowly but surely in the next 10 years to form the next govt.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:If I understand what you are saying, then NO, there will never be a uniquely Singaporean identity. There never was (so there is no back to square 1) and there will never be.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:simply because we are a multi racial multi religious society. culturally we are different and we respect and accept such difference. In our early history we had Chinese (mostly accestor worshippers) married local Malay and then became Peranakan (don't know why then they did not have to be converted to Muslim). There is still some interracial marriages, but I can't see how a new race could be evolved in the future called Singaporean.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:In our early history we had Chinese (mostly accestor worshippers) married local Malay and then became Peranakan (don't know why then they did not have to be converted to Muslim). There is still some interracial marriages, but I can't see how a new race could be evolved in the future called Singaporean.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:We will only have Singaporean who would identify themselves as Singaporean. The day they migrate to Australia, they become Australian, what Singapore identity can you find in them?
Originally posted by sgdiehard:When we talk about developing Singaporean identity, we are talking about those identified by place of birth alone.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:If you were born in Singapore, what Singaporean identity comes with you?
Kiasu-ism!
Originally posted by eagle:Kiasu-ism!
I dont know about you guys but for one of the graduating classes i was in, it is easier to count those that have stayed in SG(with my two hands) than to count those that have already flown out.. And even now those that remained in SG are finding ways to get out..
At this rate i'm pretty sure SG will bleed to death.. Perishing slowly from hemophilia, losing the best of her economic blood consisting of the middle class and the competent, leaving only the foreigners and those too poor to get out.. Its only a matter of time..........
THE fast pace of population expansion is beginning to show up in the daily lives of Singaporeans.
People are feeling the pinch of insufficient hospital beds and doctors, delayed buses and cramped trains, which runs counter to the city’s traditional image of efficiency.
Some public services are facing stresses in the wake of a 60% surge in the population in the past 16 years.
In 1990, there were only 2.7 million people living here; today there are 4.3 million,
one of the fastest rates of increase in the world.
This exerts pressures on space and manpower – resulting in shortages and over-crowdedness in some areas – and, of course, on cost structures.
Last year, the country – one of the most densely populated in the world – granted permanent residence to 58,200, and citizenship to 13,900 foreigners.
The crowds in the streets haven’t reached the frantic levels of that in Tokyo, Shanghai or Hong Kong – but given the ambition to push for a population to 6.5 million, it may not be too far away.
Another source could be the expected rise in the number of tourists from 9 million to 18 million after 2010, when two casino resorts start operation. The size of land, on the other hand, remains static.
A small-time businessman told me over lunch last week: “Almost every day, we read of public services being over-extended by higher demand. I think it’s an omen of things to come.”
His comment came after he had just gleaned the following news – all in one day – that reflected the impact of the expansion, and the government’s urgent efforts to cope with it:
> Hospitals. A serious shortage of beds led to a decision to build two more hospitals. This followed complaints about sick patients having to wait months before they got a specialist appointment or a bed.
> Public transport. More cases of late buses or overcrowded trains at peak periods. The bus company responded by setting up a
website to inform passengers how long they would have to wait for their next bus.
> Energy. The government reported it was seeking alternative energy sources and amended the Gas Act to guarantee all players open access to the gas pipeline network here.
> Imported sand. A 300-foot barge arrived with 7,000 tonnes of sand from Cambodia, to replace banned imports from Indonesia.
A population two-thirds larger than today’s size, planned for 25 years’ time, would require a revamp of the state’s security needs, as well as to source for more daily necessities – like oil and gas, water and foodstuff – than currently imported.
For example, providing security for 6.5 million people, considered a medium-size global city by 2030, will be beyond what the police force can now provide.
Last week, Parliament passed a law that will allow the military to conduct civilian security operations.
Apart from the two new hospitals, the government also gave the green light to build a new 40km, 33-station Downtown Line by 2018 to cater for the rising population.
It is building more roads, underground storage caverns and more schools. In fact, almost every public service is coming under study.
The mega concerns are, of course, for the government to resolve; the ordinary folks are preoccupied with not losing out to the foreigners in jobs, a nice home and a good education.
Take healthcare, which was marked by a recent spate of public complaints about shortage in hospitals of beds and doctors.
The National University Hospital (NUH) is said to be “filled to the brim”.
A doctor said: “We have been told to hold off elective day surgeries, and every day we’re urged to discharge patients quickly if they are fit enough to go home.”
The largest, Singapore General Hospital, reports critical occupancy of up to 97%. Two other hospitals, Tan Tock Seng and Changi, are not much better.
One patient said he had to wait from 5pm to 3 am before being warded. “I was luckier. There were families of patients who had been waiting since 9am”, he said.
In these critical times, long waiting times are a common feature.
“I’ve tried visiting the hospital from 10am in the morning and by the time I’m home, it’s already 3am,” exclaimed another.
“The worst thing is when they tell hospital cases that they have run out of beds.”
These tales have come as a shock to Singaporeans who are used to reading media praises on their public healthcare as among the best in the world.
Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew once described Britain’s public healthcare as below Singapore’s standards.
Some shortages are happy problems.
Last week officials announced the projected creation of 450,000 jobs over the next five years; it says there are not enough Singaporeans to fill them, so more foreign workers are needed.
Among the jobs are for 54,000 engineers, technicians and research scientists.
Other worries are more fundamental.
Today’s population of 4.3 million is made up of about 2.5 million Singaporeans, one million permanent residents and 800,000 foreigners.
This could make original Singaporeans an endangered species in a future expanded Singapore in 2030. By then it will be one-third locals and the rest immigrants.
Some pre-university students, in a seminar last week, raised concerns about a national loss of common purpose with the ebb and flow of peoples.
A government official said a cultural mix would take two or three generations to take root. “I’m hopeful it will be like a gentle blending of two streams rather than the churning of murky water,” he said.
INSIGHT DOWN SOUTH
By SEAH CHIANG NEE
YEARS of strong economic growth have failed to stem Singapore’s skilled youths from leaving for a better life abroad, with the number topping 1,000 a year.
This works out to 4%-5%, or three in 10, of the highly educated population, a severe brain drain for a small, young nation, according to Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew.
Such high-end emigration is usually associated with less better-off countries where living conditions are poor. Here the opposite is the case.
Last year the economy created almost 200,000 jobs, far in excess of the 38,000 births recorded.
The future doesn’t look better, either, despite Lee holding out promises of “a golden period” in the next five to 10 years.
Lee believes the exodus, which has been worrying him for two decades, could only grow because “every year, there are more people going abroad for their first or second degree.”
The emigration rate, one of the highest in the world on a per capita basis, is a blow to the government, particularly to Lee, who takes pride in building up this once poor squatter colony into a glittering global city.
They are people who abandoned their citizenship for a foreign one, mostly in Australia, the United States and Canada.
It is particularly serious for two reasons. First, Singapore is a young nation that is working hard to consolidate its nationhood and its people, and second, its defence lies in a reservist army.
This is made up of young men who have served two years of compulsory military training when they reach the age of 18. Any big outflow will badly affect security, not to mention the economy.
Adding to a declining birth rate, the problem of emigration, which appears to have worsened during the past few decades as people became better educated, will further reduce the base of this well-trained people’s army.
Hundreds of thousands of foreigners and permanent residents who have come to Singapore help make up the numbers, but they do not have to serve national service.
The emigrants, mostly professionals, don’t leave Singapore out of poverty but to seek a better, less pressurised life.
Lee recently said the brain drain is touching close to this family.
Lee’s grandson, the elder son of Prime Minister Hsien Loong, who is studying in the United States, has indicated that he may not return.
Over the years, the children of several Cabinet ministers have also made Britain or the US their home.
Lee, aged 84, has often spoken on the issue with emotions, once tearing when referring to the losses.
However, he has offered no reasons for the exodus beyond economic opportunities, although the government more or less knows what they are.
Singaporeans who have or are planning to emigrate are given a host of 10 questions and asked to tick the three most important ones. They include the following: -
> High costs of living
> Singapore is too regulated and stifling
> Better career and prospects overseas
> Prefer a more relaxed lifestyle
> Uncertain future of Singapore.
Some liberal Singaporeans believe Lee himself, with his authoritarian leadership and unpopular policies, is largely to blame.
Singapore’s best-known writer Catherine Lim calls it a climate of fear that stops citizens from speaking out against the government, saying it could eventually lead to the decline of the state.
She praised the government for its economic achievements but added: “A compliant, fearful population that has never learnt to be politically savvy could spell the doom of Singapore.”
Globalisation, which offers opportunities in many countries like never before, is a big reason for the outflow.
Many countries, including populous China, are making a special effort to attract foreign talent.
Others who leave were worried about the future of their children living in a small island, and look for security and comfort of a larger country.
The exodus is more than made up – at least in numbers – by a larger intake of professionals from China and India.
“The trouble is many of the Chinese then use us as a stepping stone to go to America, where the grass is greener, Lee said.
“But even if we only keep 30%-40% and lose 60%-70%, we’re a net gainer,” he added.
He believed, however, that the Chinese would cease to come in 20 to 30 years’ time, when China’s living standards rise to match Singapore’s.
Some feel the large presence of foreigners, and the perks they enjoy over locals in military exemption as well as in scholarships, are themselves strong push factors.
They see the foreigners as a threat to jobs and space, undermining salaries and loosening the nation’s cohesion.
“I just feel very sad to see the Singapore of today with so many talented, passionate Singaporeans moving out and being replaced by many foreigners,” said one blogger. “I feel sorry for the future.”
Others point out the danger of an easy fix in numbers without regard to quality.
“Foreigners treat this place as a hotel, when the economy turns they will leave,” said a teacher who is seeing more and more foreign students in his class.
Lee recently made a passionate appeal to youths to think hard about their country. He said they had received education and opportunities provided by Singaporeans who had worked hard for it.
“Can you in good conscience say, ‘Goodbye! Thank you very much?’ Can you leave with a clear conscience? I cannot,” he said.
Goodbye and thank you INSIGHT DOWN SOUTH
BY SEAH CHIANG NEE
Each year there is said about 1 0 0 0 people migrate.
Imagine if these 1000 cumulate to 2 or 3 years time and then do it one more time of being involved in election, what will be the effect?
1 last effort.
For example, providing security for 6.5 million people, considered a medium-size global city by 2030, will be beyond what the police force can now provide.
6.5?
What sort of horseshit policy is that?
This could make original Singaporeans an endangered species in a future expanded Singapore in 2030. By then it will be one-third locals and the rest immigrants.
Some pre-university students, in a seminar last week, raised concerns about a national loss of common purpose with the ebb and flow of peoples.
A government official said a cultural mix would take two or three generations to take root. “I’m hopeful it will be like a gentle blending of two streams rather than the churning of murky water,” he said.
More horseshit.
Really opposed to their bullshit plans on future development of Singapore.
I firmly, strongly and completely opposed to PAP regime's population policy.
Uh huh...the usual astuteness by Seah Chiang Nee. Did LKY actually tear to know of highly educated Singaporeans leaving by the numbers? So why continue to hang on to power....
From the baby policies, tight control of the media and massive import of foreigners etc etc..they still dun get it huh.
If importing of foreigners is the way to sustain the economy, then 2030 projected to have 6.5 million people, wat abt 2100? 15 million? Then we have to invade Johor liao lol.
Why still impose consrciption on the nation and do long cycles of reservist too.
Opposition members should block PAP regime's population policy in parliament.
It will result in annihilation of Singapore identity.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Opposition members should block PAP regime's population policy in parliament.
It will result in annihilation of Singapore identity.
opposition vote count... = 3....
I am completely and totally opposed to PAP regime's plans to increase population to 6.5 million by 2030.
SDP, please raise this issue up for discussion, mainstream propaganda media will not touch this topic.
Originally posted by Rock^Star:Uh huh...the usual astuteness by Seah Chiang Nee. Did LKY actually tear to know of highly educated Singaporeans leaving by the numbers? So why continue to hang on to power....
From the baby policies, tight control of the media and massive import of foreigners etc etc..they still dun get it huh.
If importing of foreigners is the way to sustain the economy, then 2030 projected to have 6.5 million people, wat abt 2100? 15 million? Then we have to invade Johor liao lol.
Why still impose consrciption on the nation and do long cycles of reservist too.
for conscription, south korea and taiwan also...
opposition vote count... = 3....
Then why you support PAP?
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Then why you support PAP?
then y u dont emigrate to Micronesia Islands?
Lee recently made a passionate appeal to youths to think hard about their country. He said they had received education and opportunities provided by Singaporeans who had worked hard for it.
Then what the fuck is up with below:
NUS officials stop Democrats from distributing flyers
http://www.yoursdp.org/index.php/news/singapore/1036-nus-
then y u dont emigrate to Micronesia Islands?
Why you keep telling me to go micronesia?
You give me one million dollars I will go.
Originally posted by Rednano:
for conscription, south korea and taiwan also...
Yeh true but south korea got threat from the north, taiwan has threat from China. We got threat from Malaysia? No way we are in their scale.
Originally posted by Rock^Star:Yeh true but south korea got threat from the north, taiwan has threat from China. We got threat from Malaysia? No way we are in their scale.
consider the racial tension still present up north...
consider the racial tension still present up north...
So? That is their business.
Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:Why you keep telling me to go micronesia?
You give me one million dollars I will go.
after all these years u slogged, u r still a poor man?