Can MINDEF be trusted ?
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After the death, ppl will most probably forget in a month's time... But the family member will not forget they lost a son during NS.. The previous one was my friend,(the one who die in Brunie) that is why i so angry.. Seems like they nv took it seriously...if the MOD gets murder one day , i wun be surprise..cuz he has kill too many NS guys and make them suffer too much. I am one of them.
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maybe the mo don wanna endorse the mc??? mo think tat he was only excuse for lower limb?? u haven seen how F up some mo is...
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by the time Singapore actually uses the SAF, more people would have been KIA'd in training than at the conflict =D
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Originally posted by angel7030:
SAF no celebrate 7th month one meh?? hmmm..i go tell my Uncle Rear Admire Teo, defence minister to set up a committee to look into itRear Admiral.
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Originally posted by SPLIT SECOND:
i have seen it during NS, when a private in under MC , he is asked to come back and do SOC, IPPT ect and such stuff.
So what if Mindef investigates, the NSF's officers will get punishment and part of negligence or abuse of authority?
U cant bring back a son's life to the family. A family has lost their son.
Sometimes, it could also be mutual. Like the commanders asked if he can still continue since its lower limb, and that if he dont feel well during the training, he can stop anytime. That kind of agreement.
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Seriously, I've seen some commanders who are like that.
People who report sick due to URTI, kena called "pussy" or "ku niang." So sometimes, we'd just suck it up and don't report sick. "Pain is temporary, Pride is forever."
Or sometimes on att B, we'd just insist on participating. Sort of "indirecT" pressure.
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Commanders will say, excuse lower limb(leg excercise) , does not mean upper limb(pull ups) cannot do right?
For his case is quite sad, never do strenous excercise will also have cardiac arrest. People call it suay or whatever...man.....it's fate. Life is short.
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that's when the ECG test conducted are not comprehensive enough.
Medic A to another medic B: "eh, this curve correct shape right?"
Medic B :"I think so"
PES A.
wth... that's what i overheard during my med screening, about the other guy taking the test.
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If MINDEF could be trusted, they wouldn't have to build it up in the first place.
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So... how many more isolated cases will it take for NS to close down? Btw do they have another three-day holiday for "investigations" this time?
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MC for hamstring condition means excuse lower limb exercise. if you are the sergeant, you will encourage your men to participate when ever possible.
if the guy is going to report sick, he will stay one side with the report sick people and wait to report sick.
it is damn demoralizing to see a whole bunch of people sit out on exercises...
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Orthopedic specialist gave me 3 months of MC to excuse from IPPT. I endorse it with my NS unit medical centre. Less than a month's time, a letter came from the medical centre declaring I am 'fit for duty'.
How's that?
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Originally posted by angel7030:
SAF no celebrate 7th month one meh?? hmmm..i go tell my Uncle Rear Admire Teo, defence minister to set up a committee to look into it
got celebrate one lah usually the canteen staff from the commercial sector de will do some prayers de la -
wow...sometimes i'm realli amazed at the narrow point of view of some people who post on forums..and i realised how comfortable youngsters...or if there are adults here...how these adults get so comfortable with life..don't start pointing and blaming without using the pile of soft tissue in that skull of urs...
when u're in NS..u have to be responsible for what u do..if what the report from mindef is right..then more than 50% of the fault lies with the deceased..i apologise on my remarks...but it's true..it's the responsibility of the men to look after themselves on their own side..and ur commanders can onli do it to a certain extent...if u got att C and don't tell anyone...juz go for training..u wanna blame who...?the commander..?the MOD..?the officer..?ur bunkmate..?or urself..?no one knows ur body better than u do..if u know there's something wrong...don't go ahead and push urself..there's no meter on our foreheads to show our condition or rpm..anyone here managed to install one..?can suggest to the SAF...but till then..i think it's truly the men's responsibility to care for themselves..
no commanders will force u to participate..they care for u also...they will encourage u..juz like ur parents might encourage u to eat more vege...coz it's ur own good..but they don't tied u down and inject vege juice into ur veins..ask the commanders.."sir, isit ur responsibility to encourage the men to participate in the activities more..?"..a responsible commander would always say yes..but if "sir..do u ask ur sick or unfit men to participate in the activities?"..they will say.."yes..but onli if it doesn't involve risking them and if they themselves feel that they can deal with the activity at their status"...so some responsibility lies with the commander..especially when the commander has so many men to look after..the men themselves have responsibility too..another point to note and question...where is the deceased's buddy...`?we have a buddy when we're in army don't we..?this buddy got to care for u and u got to care for ur buddy too..where did this guy go...?so who's fault isit...?the MOD...?he wasn't even there..?u ever heard the CEO of HP suddenly out of the blue call a front sales staff to ask if he is okie and ask him to step off duty..?
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Originally posted by Dr Who:
Do you think MINDEF will cover up the commanders who made this NS man do exercises when he was on MC?
SINGAPORE: 20—year—old Private Joe Foo Wei Rong who died at Lim Chu Kang Camp on Tuesday morning had been given three days of medical leave on Sunday for a hamstring strain.
Relatives and friends learnt of this as they paid their last respects to the full—time National Serviceman at the Ubi Teochew Parlour on Wednesday afternoon.
Private Foo collapsed while doing chin—ups at Lim Chu Kang camp. The Ministry of Defence said he was brought to hospital where he died shortly after.
It’s learnt that Mindef is investigating why Private Foo was training while on medical leave.
Private Foo will be cremated at Mandai Crematorium on Thursday morning.
Many remember him as an athletic young man who liked to play basketball.
Clifton Seah, the cousin of Private Foo, said: "I’m very shocked. He was a fine young man. My brother was on the phone with him barely 12 hours before he died. It’s a great loss." — CNA
Will they examine policies and Standard operating procedures? Will they just take action against the platoon commander and cover up cock ups in higher management? Can MINDEF be trusted?
Or is Pte Foo expendable.......just another person to be stepped on by those who grow fat on their superscale salaries?
TS...can u change ur name to Mr Who..?coz u don't give intelligent questions at all...
maybe in this situation u should ask..can the men be trusted..?y didn't the deceased excuse himself from the exercise..?who was the commander in charge of the deceased..?
could there be more to be done to educate the men on the their own safety...?
i juz hate the way u post ur question ready to blame people on the higher level management..have u even serve NS yet...?u know what's the significance of NS..?what role does the SAF play in this country...?what's the bigger question here..?can u be trusted to protect singapore in the times of uncertainty..?can u run the extra km knowing that the lives of ur own family and wife and kids are at risk...?or will u sit on the battlefield playing ur psp...?could u as a top management of a big company protect every single employee from getting fired if the employee don't even care about themselves..?
and what expendable..?u think the saf realli treat their men as expendable..?u ever saw foreign armies..?u're talking about the army...the defence of the country..but if they think nsmen like us are expendable..u think they will have a term called "peace-time-training"..?then again..u should ask urself..do u treat urself as expendable..?and..u know what is chain of command...?u submit ur MC to ur form teacher or direct to ur principal..?or direct to Minister of Education..?
it is a tragic loss..truly i feel it..but maybe we shouldn't start blaming people for it..someone alive may hold a small responsibility..but ultimately..we have to look deeper and still open our eyes to the big picture...
and i forget to mention this in my previous post..i first apologise to who it may concern..maybe the parents and friends around him could have done more to caution him and warn him on such health hazards..but who wans to get blamed..?
could u DR Who...?could u have done more to prevent his fate..?should the blame be placed on u too..?
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Originally posted by Tycoapollo:
Another poor NS guy dies..number 4 dis year..but there are many more suffering outside. I urge all those who care to protest to the Government as death during NS is a Very Big issue. Since i am also a NSF, i know there are just so many gaps in the training. I took MC and was really sick..i must go to jalan Beser to submit the MC and go back home (stay in Tampines)as i am a scdf. During the moring training, the instructor will always ask who is not feeling well infront of 100hundreds of other trainnes..how can anyone dare to voice out??
I am really very angry with the Government as they only give the Family a little bit of $$ and shut their mouth up and bring the issue to an end.
Remember this is already the number 4 death..we NS guys a treated like Bangaldash worker.. i die die also have a Diploma. F the Government.Protest Prtoest Protest..The Ministry Of Defense pls step down..
think it's a good point u bring up here..about the reporting of the MC..maybe more can be done..but then again...i have a question for u...
would u risk ur life or would u juz jolly well step out...?pride or life..?
and to everyone one out there..would u rather this guy step out and step aside..?or would u rather this guy die in ur camp's training session..?he might juz be standing beside u and collapse...think about it...
there maybe more than a way to ask if anyone is not feeling well..but we're all men..all born different..even our eyeballs are different in size..so u wanna blame someone for not feeling well..?would u laugh at someone who stands out and excuse himself from the training..?then maybe u would be the one who should be blame for such instances...because u've created a mockery out of these people such that others dare not step up even if their life is at risk..tycoapollo...think about it the next time u walk into the training ground with ur buddy...
about ur money from the government issue..u got to ask..who's responsibility isit..?totally the government...?is the family onli getting that single amount from the government for it..?the family didn't buy insurance for the deceased..?who's responsibility is it for buying insurance for the deceased..?the family..?or the government..?coz as far as i know..the government has already educate it's people to buy insurance..did u buy any..?if u have a road accident and pass on, yet don't have any insurance..u blame LTA...?and what exactly is the use of this insurance money when u get it..?u get ultimately rich and gain a profit out of someone else's death...?or is it for the family to deal with the after expenses of the deceased and to cope with the sudden turn of financial burden in the next few years to come..?
lastly..there's a phrase that i learnt some years ago..and it has brought mi good ever since..
"Treat onto urself how u want others to treat onto u."
if u treat urself like a bangladesh..people will treat u like one...if u treat urself like a soldier..u will be treated like a soldier..what do u treat urself as..?
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Much as I sympatise with him, I have to say he is partially for his own death.
If he has an MC. why didn't he sound out and be excused instead of going through the morning exercise? He should be responsible enough for his own health to not push himself. Now his parents are the only ones that mourn his death. Is that the way he account to his parents? He would rather have 'face' among his peers then think of his family? That's the mentality of so many youths nowadays.
I
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Originally posted by HyperFocal:
It is HIGH TIME Mindef wakes up their old stuffy ideas, and re-assess the general health of enlistees before they further reduce the population of True Blooded Singaporeans. Spend some money to advertise on TV encourage schooling teens who are at least 3 years to enlistment to watch their diets, & exercise often in order to have a strong heart so that they don't friggin drop dead during training. Generally EDUCATE the young society to prepare for NS and not let their health sink to a dangerous point.
Where the hell are the government's foresight??? Afterall this is not like the first case, or as they would love to phrase "isolated case". Friggin learn from it for once for Christ sake! Get it right for crying out loud.
People aren't Guinnea Pigs for Trial and Error approach to defense force buidling!
WTH...
Sheesh man Hyperfocal...every guy in Singapore has to go to the army..u have to remind them that...?go army means training..but...u have a point there..make an effort to advertise and educate..~good point...
i truly think this is isolated..how many such freak accidents have u seen so far..?jus go for chin up and pass away one..?plus with such instances that the deceased did have an att C but didn't submit..not isolated enough..?u see a lot of people die from doing chin ups..?
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Originally posted by harrymushroom:
wow...sometimes i'm realli amazed at the narrow point of view of some people who post on forums..and i realised how comfortable youngsters...or if there are adults here...how these adults get so comfortable with life..don't start pointing and blaming without using the pile of soft tissue in that skull of urs...
when u're in NS..u have to be responsible for what u do..if what the report from mindef is right..then more than 50% of the fault lies with the deceased..i apologise on my remarks...but it's true..it's the responsibility of the men to look after themselves on their own side..and ur commanders can onli do it to a certain extent...if u got att C and don't tell anyone...juz go for training..u wanna blame who...?the commander..?the MOD..?the officer..?ur bunkmate..?or urself..?no one knows ur body better than u do..if u know there's something wrong...don't go ahead and push urself..there's no meter on our foreheads to show our condition or rpm..anyone here managed to install one..?can suggest to the SAF...but till then..i think it's truly the men's responsibility to care for themselves..
no commanders will force u to participate..they care for u also...they will encourage u..juz like ur parents might encourage u to eat more vege...coz it's ur own good..but they don't tied u down and inject vege juice into ur veins..ask the commanders.."sir, isit ur responsibility to encourage the men to participate in the activities more..?"..a responsible commander would always say yes..but if "sir..do u ask ur sick or unfit men to participate in the activities?"..they will say.."yes..but onli if it doesn't involve risking them and if they themselves feel that they can deal with the activity at their status"...so some responsibility lies with the commander..especially when the commander has so many men to look after..the men themselves have responsibility too..another point to note and question...where is the deceased's buddy...`?we have a buddy when we're in army don't we..?this buddy got to care for u and u got to care for ur buddy too..where did this guy go...?so who's fault isit...?the MOD...?he wasn't even there..?u ever heard the CEO of HP suddenly out of the blue call a front sales staff to ask if he is okie and ask him to step off duty..?
So far, their 'investigations' only claims that the deceased was issued an MC for 3 days, and that it was kept & found in the deceased locker.
My curiosity is; DID they asked the deceased closest in-camp buddy/buddies, WHY his MC was kept in the deceased locker, or why and whether did the deceased submit the said 3 days MC to the MO or Medical Center for approval or endorsment?
To me, this finding is One Sided. Where are the details from his peers? If the deceased parents knew that he was issued 3 days MC, wouldn't he have been advised to present the MC to the camp's Medica Officer or Medical Center?
The report is too brief, and too loosely composed.
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Originally posted by harrymushroom:
Sheesh man Hyperfocal...every guy in Singapore has to go to the army..u have to remind them that...?go army means training..but...u have a point there..make an effort to advertise and educate..~good point...
i truly think this is isolated..how many such freak accidents have u seen so far..?jus go for chin up and pass away one..?plus with such instances that the deceased did have an att C but didn't submit..not isolated enough..?u see a lot of people die from doing chin ups..?
Go look through the Straits Times or any local Forums' archives on reports of NS related deaths, and you tell me just how ISOLATED this is. And estimate for yourself how much SAF/Mindef have so far compensated (if amount is S$111k) to local parents for the loss of sons to date.Short-sighted, and complacent is what I think of the government in many areas... not to mention the lack of transparency.
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of course they asked the peers. the platoonmate was at the funeral being the pallbearers. if they had known something they would have told the father about it.
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Originally posted by Dr Who:
Do you think MINDEF will cover up the commanders who made this NS man do exercises when he was on MC?
SINGAPORE: 20—year—old Private Joe Foo Wei Rong who died at Lim Chu Kang Camp on Tuesday morning had been given three days of medical leave on Sunday for a hamstring strain.
Relatives and friends learnt of this as they paid their last respects to the full—time National Serviceman at the Ubi Teochew Parlour on Wednesday afternoon.
Private Foo collapsed while doing chin—ups at Lim Chu Kang camp. The Ministry of Defence said he was brought to hospital where he died shortly after.
It’s learnt that Mindef is investigating why Private Foo was training while on medical leave.
Private Foo will be cremated at Mandai Crematorium on Thursday morning.
Many remember him as an athletic young man who liked to play basketball.
Clifton Seah, the cousin of Private Foo, said: "I’m very shocked. He was a fine young man. My brother was on the phone with him barely 12 hours before he died. It’s a great loss." — CNA
Will they examine policies and Standard operating procedures? Will they just take action against the platoon commander and cover up cock ups in higher management? Can MINDEF be trusted?
Or is Pte Foo expendable.......just another person to be stepped on by those who grow fat on their superscale salaries?
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Your question has implication to many many other aspects. Its like asking the many other things the same.
1 thing for sure, I believe the majority believe.
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Originally posted by HyperFocal:
So far, their 'investigations' only claims that the deceased was issued an MC for 3 days, and that it was kept & found in the deceased locker.
My curiosity is; DID they asked the deceased closest in-camp buddy/buddies, WHY his MC was kept in the deceased locker, or why and whether did the deceased submit the said 3 days MC to the MO or Medical Center for approval or endorsment?
To me, this finding is One Sided. Where are the details from his peers? If the deceased parents knew that he was issued 3 days MC, wouldn't he have been advised to present the MC to the camp's Medica Officer or Medical Center?
The report is too brief, and too loosely composed.
the report says that there was no documentation of the MC at the Medical centre..the procedure as all of us know is to go back to camp..submit and approve MC at medical centre then go home and start ur rest..but the question lies with the deceased..y didn't he submit the MC to Medical Centre..?and it's an MC from SGH...so it was a legimate MC on standard terms..and it's 3 days somemore..u don't get 3 days MC for a small flu or fever..so what happened on the deceased side..?did the deceased inform anyone else about the MC..?if someone known..they would have said something..maybe it's the parents' fault for not keeping him back..?or the buddy's fault for not bao-toh him...?or the commander's fault for not doing a full trashing of the bunk so that he might have noticed about the MC...?either one of them is rubbish..the onli question is y the deceased himself didn't do anything about it..?
this is the question..if u didn't wear seat-belt..who do u blame..?the car..?the driver..?or LTA..?
like i said..the responsibility lies with oneself..
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Originally posted by skythewood:
of course they asked the peers. the platoonmate was at the funeral being the pallbearers. if they had known something they would have told the father about it.
No worries on that as the CO of the unit will tell these fresh soldiers not to say anything unnecessary.
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FYI people, the MC is 1day att c(usually ALLOWED TO SERVE IN CAMP), and 2 days excuse lower limb. which brings to point. HOW THE HELL IS THAT RELATED TO THE DEATH CAUSE? WHICH IS CARDIAC???? point is, if his heart is to declare " thats it! enough for me, i quit". it would do it weather he is doing pull ups, he is eating, sleeping, playing psp, watching tv. the problem lies in the screening system. NOT WITH THE GROUND LEVEL MEDICAL STAFF which have to take shit like
"aiya MO dunno anything one lah"(this people happens to be House Officers in structure hospitals for 1 freaking year, IE to say you admit to hospital and stays in subsidies ward, there is a high percentage of, oh wait, scratch the percentage, ITS 100% this guys would be the trustable faces looking at you. so quit complaining on their "inexperience".)