Originally posted by HyperFocal:
Go look through the Straits Times or any local Forums' archives on reports of NS related deaths, and you tell me just how ISOLATED this is. And estimate for yourself how much SAF/Mindef have so far compensated (if amount is S$111k) to local parents for the loss of sons to date.
Short-sighted, and complacent is what I think of the government in many areas... not to mention the lack of transparency.
like i said..the circumstances is that MC not submitted, 3days given, SGH MC, light daily exercise, no sound off from deceased...chin ups..come on..i do chin ups every day at least 2 sets when i was in army..i didn't die..and i haven't heard of chin up deaths at all..not isolated enough...?
think of it...111k..not enough..?it is extra above what the family have prepared for the deceased..a death in army is as uncertain as u crossing the road..in fact..u have a higher risk of death on the road than in army..so it's a sign of condolence..let's say if it's death due to accident knocked down by military vehicles or by shot of ammunition..maybe u'll have a better arguement..
plus..i told u that the family is not receiving juz the amount of money that the government gives..but also with the rest of the amount that they will receive from the insurance they have bought..
and put urself in the shoes of the government..u have tons tons tons of things to look into at the same time..and u're not the main cause of the death..but he happens to be in army..he happens to do chin ups..so..?think of it this way..u will always invite all ur friends to ur birthday chalet..and every year u will have games to get everyone involved..someone who had MC died during ur games..u paying 500k for him to his family...?look...he could have neglected his health anytime else..and if it's any time else..no one at the basketball court or soccer field or physical corner will pay a single cent..one have to be responsible for oneself..~
Army don't cock-up then it is not the army....
Originally posted by snk86:FYI people, the MC is 1day att c(usually ALLOWED TO SERVE IN CAMP), and 2 days excuse lower limb. which brings to point. HOW THE HELL IS THAT RELATED TO THE DEATH CAUSE? WHICH IS CARDIAC???? point is, if his heart is to declare " thats it! enough for me, i quit". it would do it weather he is doing pull ups, he is eating, sleeping, playing psp, watching tv. the problem lies in the screening system. NOT WITH THE GROUND LEVEL MEDICAL STAFF which have to take shit like
"aiya MO dunno anything one lah"(this people happens to be House Officers in structure hospitals for 1 freaking year, IE to say you admit to hospital and stays in subsidies ward, there is a high percentage of, oh wait, scratch the percentage, ITS 100% this guys would be the trustable faces looking at you. so quit complaining on their "inexperience".)
lolz..good one..~i agree..~if he's playing psp at the time of death...sony paying..~?lolz..u know the answer...
Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:
Army don't cock-up then it is not the army....
at least u it's not the army that cock up this time...
and put urself in the shoes of the government..u have tons tons tons of things to look into at the same time..and u're not the main cause of the death..but he happens to be in army..he happens to do chin ups..so..?think of it this way..u will always invite all ur friends to ur birthday chalet..and every year u will have games to get everyone involved..someone who had MC died during ur games..u paying 500k for him to his family...?look...he could have neglected his health anytime else..and if it's any time else..no one at the basketball court or soccer field or physical corner will pay a single cent..one have to be responsible for oneself..~
how abt not have a chalet anymore?
Since it a mandatory NS and not voluntary NS, thus MOD should be responsible for the wellbeing of all NSmen and their family during their time with the various defence force.
in the case of playing basketball for leisure, of course one had to be responsible for own safety. But if u r playing basketball for the country and injured, do the Singapore baseketball association has a responsible for you? your comparison has to be relevant.
MC for hamstring condition means excuse lower limb exercise. if you are the sergeant, you will encourage your men to participate when ever possible.
i do not discourage ppl going to report sick.
anyway, report sick doesnt mean weak right? michael owen also always injury prone but still run fast.
when u're in NS..u have to be responsible for what u do..if what the report from mindef is right..then more than 50% of the fault lies with the deceased..i apologise on my remarks...but it's true..it's the responsibility of the men to look after themselves on their own side..and ur commanders can onli do it to a certain extent...if u got att C and don't tell anyone...juz go for training..u wanna blame who...?the commander..?the MOD..?the officer..?ur bunkmate..?or urself..?no one knows ur body better than u do..if u know there's something wrong...don't go ahead and push urself..there's no meter on our foreheads to show our condition or rpm..anyone here managed to install one..?can suggest to the SAF...but till then..i think it's truly the men's responsibility to care for themselves..
i beg to differ.
i somehow wish to relate it to the recent DBS note 5 , triple happeninese fund or watever.
Investor as a part to play, but the financial instituition has responsible too. whether they hide the truth or intentional sending misguide information to investor. that is why the relevant authority is assigning 3 person to oversea this matter. Can you blame it solely at the investor fault? if yes, why still bother to assign the 3person to oversea this matter? govt stupid?
We should also look at whether there is culture in the army to purpsely put recuit who report sick to shame. Yes, both MOD and deceased has a responsibility, since he pass away in the army camp.
while we shouldnt put blame solely on MOD, but MOD should conduct a thorough investigation so that this mishap , shall not happen again.
Originally posted by reyes:how abt not have a chalet anymore?
Since it a mandatory NS and not voluntary NS, thus MOD should be responsible for the wellbeing of all NSmen and their family during their time with the various defence force.
in the case of playing basketball for leisure, of course one had to be responsible for own safety. But if u r playing basketball for the country and injured, do the Singapore baseketball association has a responsible for you? your comparison has to be relevant.
responsible means even if the cause is by the deceased neglecting himself also means the fault of MOD...?we're not serving the government onli..we're serving the country..consist of u and mi...and all the girls, women, and aunties...so don't put the weight on jus the MOD..u have a role to play as a friend and family member...did u play ur part..?much has already been done..and though still can improve..the best can onli be achieve if everyone play their part..including u..the onli things that we cannot control is the responsibility that is held by others..can u be blame totalli for something that is no fully ur in ur responsibility...?think about it...
it's the same..if u play basketball for the United States also the same..if u neglect ur health and juz play..who's responsible..?u or the country...?who's injecting the basketballs and fusing it to ur hands..?the main point is relevant..u have to be responsible for urself..if the injury is as a result of the game..no issue..medical will be paid by the basketball association..that's y SAF pay for the basic health care needs..but this is not an injury..it is a negligence of own health..this comparison is relevant.
Originally posted by reyes:i beg to differ.
i somehow wish to relate it to the recent DBS note 5 , triple happeninese fund or watever.
Investor as a part to play, but the financial instituition has responsible too. whether they hide the truth or intentional sending misguide information to investor. that is why the relevant authority is assigning 3 person to oversea this matter. Can you blame it solely at the investor fault? if yes, why still bother to assign the 3person to oversea this matter? govt stupid?
We should also look at whether there is culture in the army to purpsely put recuit who report sick to shame. Yes, both MOD and deceased has a responsibility, since he pass away in the army camp.
while we shouldnt put blame solely on MOD, but MOD should conduct a thorough investigation so that this mishap , shall not happen again.
good point made there...financial inst has a part to play as well..but ultimately it's the investor's money..and negligence of info, insufficient research, and not making an intelligent decision will still be a responsibility held by the investor..plus we're speaking about the army here..instructions are made clear about mc and medical conditions..always sound off...and yes..u're right..maybe something more can be done...~
on the MOD side..i agree..a more detailed report should be made..but..er..it's juz been a few days..the MOD came up with a statment..report not out yet..so maybe we should be more patient for the report...
Point to Note: Past accident reports of past accidents might already be out, but it's juz that it's not open to public or we don't seem to take much notice into it.
good point made there...financial inst has a part to play as well..but ultimately it's the investor's money..and negligence of info, insufficient research, and not making an intelligent decision will still be a responsibility held by the investor..plus we're speaking about the army here..instructions are made clear about mc and medical conditions..always sound off...and yes..u're right..maybe something more can be done...~
on the MOD side..i agree..a more detailed report should be made..but..er..it's juz been a few days..the MOD came up with a statment..report not out yet..so maybe we should be more patient for the report...
Point to Note: Past accident reports of past accidents might already be out, but it's juz that it's not open to public or we don't seem to take much notice into it.
the banks definitely should bear a big chunk of the risk. since they are acting as an agent. in fact most agent such as Parallel importers should also bear the risk if you car is under warranty.
the DBS bank exploit the ignorance of the normal investor but emphasis that it is guarantee return and safe whilst they themselves are pretty ignorant about the products.
DBS and haohang bank are already in aribitration in HK. i think DBS is going to pay compensation as consumer rights have a bigger role and presence in HK than singapore.
responsible means even if the cause is by the deceased neglecting himself also means the fault of MOD...?we're not serving the government onli..we're serving the country..consist of u and mi...and all the girls, women, and aunties...so don't put the weight on jus the MOD..u have a role to play as a friend and family member...did u play ur part..?much has already been done..and though still can improve..the best can onli be achieve if everyone play their part..including u..the onli things that we cannot control is the responsibility that is held by others..can u be blame totalli for something that is no fully ur in ur responsibility...?think about it...
it's the same..if u play basketball for the United States also the same..if u neglect ur health and juz play..who's responsible..?u or the country...?who's injecting the basketballs and fusing it to ur hands..?the main point is relevant..u have to be responsible for urself..if the injury is as a result of the game..no issue..medical will be paid by the basketball association..that's y SAF pay for the basic health care needs..but this is not an injury..it is a negligence of own health..this comparison is relevant.
firstly, you shouldnt jump into conclusion whether he did submit the MC or not? thus it is also too early to jump into the defence of MOD.
for once, i think MOD is not saying they are not taking responsible.
once NSmen is enlisted, the MOD or govt cannot say, they are not responsible. this is different if a NSmen drive a motorbike and get kill in traffic accident outside the camp. he did while doing a exercise within the compound of a military camp.
in PR or political view, MOD cannot denied they had responsible and they should bear some responsibility. how much the responsibility, we shall wait and see.
anyway, it is too early to judge how much responsibility should be bear each party. nevertheless, MOD did not denied the possibility abuse of SOP.
totally off topic;
reyes, why do you put a picture of Hitler as your avatar?
Originally posted by harrymushroom:wow...sometimes i'm realli amazed at the narrow point of view of some people who post on forums..and i realised how comfortable youngsters...or if there are adults here...how these adults get so comfortable with life..don't start pointing and blaming without using the pile of soft tissue in that skull of urs...
when u're in NS..u have to be responsible for what u do..if what the report from mindef is right..then more than 50% of the fault lies with the deceased..i apologise on my remarks...but it's true..it's the responsibility of the men to look after themselves on their own side..and ur commanders can onli do it to a certain extent...if u got att C and don't tell anyone...juz go for training..u wanna blame who...?the commander..?the MOD..?the officer..?ur bunkmate..?or urself..?no one knows ur body better than u do..if u know there's something wrong...don't go ahead and push urself..there's no meter on our foreheads to show our condition or rpm..anyone here managed to install one..?can suggest to the SAF...but till then..i think it's truly the men's responsibility to care for themselves..
no commanders will force u to participate..they care for u also...they will encourage u..juz like ur parents might encourage u to eat more vege...coz it's ur own good..but they don't tied u down and inject vege juice into ur veins..ask the commanders.."sir, isit ur responsibility to encourage the men to participate in the activities more..?"..a responsible commander would always say yes..but if "sir..do u ask ur sick or unfit men to participate in the activities?"..they will say.."yes..but onli if it doesn't involve risking them and if they themselves feel that they can deal with the activity at their status"...so some responsibility lies with the commander..especially when the commander has so many men to look after..the men themselves have responsibility too..another point to note and question...where is the deceased's buddy...`?we have a buddy when we're in army don't we..?this buddy got to care for u and u got to care for ur buddy too..where did this guy go...?so who's fault isit...?the MOD...?he wasn't even there..?u ever heard the CEO of HP suddenly out of the blue call a front sales staff to ask if he is okie and ask him to step off duty..?
at the end of the day...its how the NS guy wants to serve his NS...
from my personal experience...if U keng at every opportunity...then of course ur commanders will try to push U harder...
if U put in ur fair share of work...then no commander in his right mind will try to fark around with ur Att B/excuse/off-days/leave/guard duty/extras/etc...tried and proven.
now the life how nice already... I wish i only have to serve 2 years too...
Originally posted by harrymushroom:like i said..the circumstances is that MC not submitted, 3days given, SGH MC, light daily exercise, no sound off from deceased...chin ups..come on..i do chin ups every day at least 2 sets when i was in army..i didn't die..and i haven't heard of chin up deaths at all..not isolated enough...?
think of it...111k..not enough..?it is extra above what the family have prepared for the deceased..a death in army is as uncertain as u crossing the road..in fact..u have a higher risk of death on the road than in army..so it's a sign of condolence..let's say if it's death due to accident knocked down by military vehicles or by shot of ammunition..maybe u'll have a better arguement..
plus..i told u that the family is not receiving juz the amount of money that the government gives..but also with the rest of the amount that they will receive from the insurance they have bought..
and put urself in the shoes of the government..u have tons tons tons of things to look into at the same time..and u're not the main cause of the death..but he happens to be in army..he happens to do chin ups..so..?think of it this way..u will always invite all ur friends to ur birthday chalet..and every year u will have games to get everyone involved..someone who had MC died during ur games..u paying 500k for him to his family...?look...he could have neglected his health anytime else..and if it's any time else..no one at the basketball court or soccer field or physical corner will pay a single cent..one have to be responsible for oneself..~
There are two shadows of doubts no matter how sympathize with the givernment. Don't give me or us, the crap about "so much other matters to look into", they are over paid to run a really small island country.
Doubt 1: who is to say he did not cubmit the MC. I am sure the 'investigations' would also have questioned his in-camp buddies, where's the input on that?
Doubt 2: chin ups although do not generally kill a healthy person, but if SAF/Mindef did not do a thorough enough health screen (heart checks, no cholesterol or blood pressure checks, or incompetent MO) even standing still can kill someone with a heart condition or blocked artery!
My point is, they have not been THOROUGH in these small details of enlistees' health status. You can't compare a BBQ party invite to something as officious and authoritative as conscription.
Read this:
Tranparency and openness
Obligation in Singapore seems to be a one-way street. While the Government holds the people accountable for their NS liabilities, the Ministry of Defence remains non-transparent and non-accountable in their dealings with the public.
The recent deaths of National Servicemen have opened a can of worms on training safety. In addition, the number of training fatalities and injuries are not made known to the public as a matter-of-course. The Government which compels the people to give their lives for the country are obliged to be absolutely transparent with information pertaining to safety issues. Compensation for deaths and injuries must also be reviewed and revised upwards.
The Government must also not exploit NSmen as cheap labour during major events such as the WB-IMF meeting or, possibly, the upcoming Youth Olympics. In must be remembered that the Enlistment Act was enacted for a specific purpose and any detraction from that purpose must be shunned.
Conclusion
When citizens are forced to serve in the military with the possibility of being killed if called to war, it is imperative that the government is a democratic one where citizens can hold the government accountable for its decisions and actions. Otherwise we may end up in a situation where wars are waged for the ruling elite rather than for the security and sovereignty of the nation.
Once and for all, Mindef should and MUST review and improve Medical Screenings of new enlistees, for the following conditions:
>> High Cholesterol - assess how high and risks of stroke
>> Heart Conditions - ultrasound scan will reveal whether one's heart is heavily cloaked in fatty tissues or not, DON'T be stingy Mindef, pay for what you want
>> Start TV education segments to encourage and remind teens who are 3 years approaching enlistment to watch their Diet, Exercise more, and pre-condition themselves - a government should know its people well, young ones these days spend plenty of time on the chair playing PC games, as such most may bot have good cardiovascular system.
>> Start preventing these sort of unneccessary deaths, by being proactive and pre-emptive about enlistees' health status
Ultimately, STOP BEING A SCROOGE!!!
Air force trainee felled by heatstroke: Coroner
Here's another one skillfully dodged.
Fri, Oct 03, 2008
The Straits Times
AN AIR Force trainee who collapsed during a fitness test last year and later died in hospital was felled by heatstroke, a coroner ruled yesterday at an inquiry into his death.
Corporal Ricky Liu Jun Hong, 20, had pneumonia and suffered from multiple organ failure after overheating during a 2.4km run in Paya Lebar on Nov 15. He died 10 days later, devastating his family who, just days earlier, were hopeful when his condition seemingly stabilised.
Yesterday, State Coroner Victor Yeo ruled the death an accident, concluding there were no lapses in the conduct of the air force officers overseeing the fitness test Cpl Liu was taking at the time.
totally off topic;
reyes, why do you put a picture of Hitler as your avatar?
another quick off topic answer.
I love history and did my own research on WWII topic. just found hitler rise to power, amazing, thrilling.
I m not Nazi.
The MOD should also reconsider to do revision on the IPPT test system for NSmen.
if u take your IPPT at all army camp, you will be ask before commencing 2,4Km. who is not feeling well. more than often, no one will raise their hand not because they are scare. but the fear of failing the IPPT struck most of us.
The trouble to book any test date, the trouble to travel to the test center, the trouble of end up of RT which will cause more trouble for ppl like us working in the private sector. If the MOD think IPPT test will make us fitter, i beg to differ. it will generate more stress among NSmen like myself to pass ASAP. such thoughts whether feeling well 100% at the time, will soon be forgotten.
We had already sacrifice the best of my 2,5 years to the army. and had continue to contribute all these years of ICT. i hope the MOD can start to think for us.
Originally posted by reyes:The MOD should also reconsider to do revision on the IPPT test system for NSmen.
if u take your IPPT at all army camp, you will be ask before commencing 2,4Km. who is not feeling well. more than often, no one will raise their hand not because they are scare. but the fear of failing the IPPT struck most of us.
The trouble to book any test date, the trouble to travel to the test center, the trouble of end up of RT which will cause more trouble for ppl like us working in the private sector. If the MOD think IPPT test will make us fitter, i beg to differ. it will generate more stress among NSmen like myself to pass ASAP. such thoughts whether feeling well 100% at the time, will soon be forgotten.
We had already sacrifice the best of my 2,5 years to the army. and had continue to contribute all these years of ICT. i hope the MOD can start to think for us.
That's why I aim to leave Singapore if I am able to grab that opportunity!
RT only made me weaker. I'm already very heavy then made to run more. Medical specialists already told me not to do running/jogging, should go swimming instead as it won't hurt the joints.
"But can 2.4km run in IPPT change to swimming or not?" I said.
"Oh...that one bor bian, just try your best" came the reply.
So I end up anticipating going to waste time on RT. And my RT is zun zun 2 months before my exams, lagi sian!
sigh. those fit, healthy sportsmen, all can drop just like that. Yet those heavy drinkers/late nights/heavy smokers in army, macam like bo taiji. I told my friend about this and she said 'those guys passed away without suffering. You this kind will suffer tons of pain before you die." wah lan eh.
to harrymushroom,
did you ever consider the scenario where the commander reject the MC, prevent foo from submitting the MC, before foo completes some of the activities of the day?
it is known that commanders have made men participate in war games, even though when their men are not fit (e.g. PES C, obviously-sprained ankle, high fever).
the old "assume chao keng until proven otherwise", where commander will make you participate even when you are really feeling unwell.
Originally posted by reyes:another quick off topic answer.
I love history and did my own research on WWII topic. just found hitler rise to power, amazing, thrilling.
I m not Nazi.
Yes, my fooler had do his full time research on the Fuhrer during his tenor at the IMH.
Originally posted by reyes:The MOD should also reconsider to do revision on the IPPT test system for NSmen.
if u take your IPPT at all army camp, you will be ask before commencing 2,4Km. who is not feeling well. more than often, no one will raise their hand not because they are scare. but the fear of failing the IPPT struck most of us.
The trouble to book any test date, the trouble to travel to the test center, the trouble of end up of RT which will cause more trouble for ppl like us working in the private sector. If the MOD think IPPT test will make us fitter, i beg to differ. it will generate more stress among NSmen like myself to pass ASAP. such thoughts whether feeling well 100% at the time, will soon be forgotten.
We had already sacrifice the best of my 2,5 years to the army. and had continue to contribute all these years of ICT. i hope the MOD can start to think for us.
My dear Fooler, since you are an advocate of our famous Fuhrer, you should hv embraced NS, our Fuhrer served in WW1 as a corporal, he was good and efficient, from there he learned alots about the Army that later helped him in the conquest of the West.
If i am not wrong IPPT also got monetary award for guys, i saw some guys flavoured IPPT, they told me it is rare to earn a few hundreds buck in just under 30 minutes in SIngapore, very seldom got this chances. So, not all people hate IPPT. We the Waffen SS gals troop also got no IPPT, damn sian.
Originally posted by Xcert:at the end of the day...its how the NS guy wants to serve his NS...
from my personal experience...if U keng at every opportunity...then of course ur commanders will try to push U harder...
if U put in ur fair share of work...then no commander in his right mind will try to fark around with ur Att B/excuse/off-days/leave/guard duty/extras/etc...tried and proven.
I believe what most commanders mentality about excuses and MC belong to the story of "the boy who cried WOLF", so everytime a guy goes up and tell him about his sickness or excuses, he first thought without further research was, another boy crying wolf. And that is very wrong