Taiwan vs Singapore
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
The taiwanese are mad about politics and so-called democracy. Their constant bickering has paralyzed the Parliament and their economy.
Another gullible psuedo-intellect who believe the PAP lie - that democracy will lead to constant bickering and is bad for the economy.Despite 51 years of Politics dominated by a single Political Party - Singapore was the first Asian country to declare it is in recession.
With 51 years of a monolithic political party in power, this Singapore Government has created a rich Reserve by sucking the hard earned monies of the Citizens, all of whom are made dependent on a sole source for employment and for all the essential services - all owned by Government Linked Companies.
For all its supposed bickering, Taiwan has been able to throw out a corrupt political leadership and yet the Government is not paralysed.
For all its supposed bickering, the Taiwanese economy has given opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs - earning Foreign Exchange to boost its Reserves.
Has Singapore any World Leading Consumer brand names or products comparable to the Taiwanese that are sought after by World-wide consumers ?
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Originally posted by Atobe:
With 51 years of a monolithic political party in power, this Singapore Government has created a rich Reserve by sucking the hard earned monies of the Citizens, all of whom are made dependent on a sole source for employment and for all the essential services - all owned by Government Linked Companies.
Has Singapore any World Leading Consumer brand names or products comparable to the Taiwanese that are sought after by World-wide consumers ?
these two depends on who you ask and what criteria.if you ask someone like me i really don't know but if you ask sg govt they'll tell you sg passport is recognised everywhere. and sg name has reputation.
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Originally posted by youyayu:
if singapore were to be like a taiwan..
we should be protesting like fudge almost every month!
how come taiwanese raise price they can protest like fudge...
Singaporeans just seem to accept every price hike?
Cos Singaporean have more grace, tolerance, culture and identity as compared to Taiwanese.Don't you know that?
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Another gullible psuedo-intellect who believe the PAP lie - that democracy will lead to constant bickering and is bad for the economy.Despite 51 years of Politics dominated by a single Political Party - Singapore was the first Asian country to declare it is in recession.
With 51 years of a monolithic political party in power, this Singapore Government has created a rich Reserve by sucking the hard earned monies of the Citizens, all of whom are made dependent on a sole source for employment and for all the essential services - all owned by Government Linked Companies.
For all its supposed bickering, Taiwan has been able to throw out a corrupt political leadership and yet the Government is not paralysed.
For all its supposed bickering, the Taiwanese economy has given opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs - earning Foreign Exchange to boost its Reserves.
Has Singapore any World Leading Consumer brand names or products comparable to the Taiwanese that are sought after by World-wide consumers ?
For all its supposed bickering, Taiwan has been able to throw out a corrupt political leadership and yet the Government is not paralysed.
This is not the whole story, and not the true story. Ah Bian was not ousted because he was found to be corrupt, just his ill management of Taiwan affair in general, from economy to education. His corrupt practice, money laundry was discovered after KMT came into power. Now the opposition party want to cut ties completely with this "son of Taiwan".
The whole story started from some 8 years ago, when Taiwan made history with the tiny opposition party ousting the KMT government which was said to be corrupt, blah,blah, blah....great day for demoncracy, example for all undemocratic countries to follow. The fact is, when ah bian took over the government, nobody from the ex government was found to be corrupt. But for the next 8 years....the Sogo's saga involving the first lady, the insider trading involving the president's son in law..... all these appear to be just tips of the iceberge. Was it democracy in Taiwan that has allowed the president to use government funds to pay for his dog food.....
hail, taiwanese democracy....
For all its supposed bickering, the Taiwanese economy has given opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs - earning Foreign Exchange to boost its Reserves.
opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs? hahaha...the small and medium size companies in taiwan are nowhere to be found today. Nothing to do with politics, it is globalization and economic of scale. The successful and the non successful taiwanese companies are all in China today. The economic miracle of Taiwan started when the Jiang junior ruled the country, and LKY learned much from him. The success has nothing to do with the politics, definitely not the current 民进党。
gullible psuedo-intellect who believe ... dont' use such statement liberally, it ends up describing yourself.
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- constant bickering
The very basis of democracy is going to lead to bickering, that's the point of it all isn't it? You really think you can get mature individuals to talk nicely in a room through a system where it's the person who shout the loudest that get the votes?
Singapore is nothing more than a harbor port, every major companies we have here caters to the world market and thus if the world goes into a recession, we automatically go into a recession. It's pretty simple logic isn't it?
It's the price of globalisation.
You know, the reason why you can get a cheap Made-In-China PC at home to talk to us on this forum? The reason why you can get a job to even pay for this Made-In-China PC?
This "rich" reserve you talk about is the primary reason why Singapore is not loaded down with debt like Japan and Korea.
Taiwanese entrepreneurs? I wonder if you've actually talk to Taiwanese before. So far only their IT industry is still going strong. That, at least is the impression i got from the Taiwanese on the ground, not through the global media.
Hong Kong and Taiwan has this huge thing next to them called C-H-I-N-A. Somehow you always fail to factor that into your statements.
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Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
these two depends on who you ask and what criteria.if you ask someone like me i really don't know but if you ask sg govt they'll tell you sg passport is recognised everywhere. and sg name has reputation.
If you measure politics with the accessibility that your Passport brings, but foresake the political freedom that you are entitled - what is the values that you have for Singapore's political future beyond LKY and the PAP ? -
Forget all the rubbish quotes and definition by others.
For those who hate PAP because they destroy true democracy,tell us ur definition of democracy!
For those who loves PAP, tell us ur criteria to be fulfilled by a governing body in order to love that government?
Dont cut and paste from Wiki or such!
If u are only capable of reading other ppl definition and other ppl point of views and u come here to KPKB with other ppl point of view, u are no better than a parrot!
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
For all its supposed bickering, Taiwan has been able to throw out a corrupt political leadership and yet the Government is not paralysed.
This is not the whole story, and not the true story. Ah Bian was not ousted because he was found to be corrupt, just his ill management of Taiwan affair in general, from economy to education. His corrupt practice, money laundry was discovered after KMT came into power. Now the opposition party want to cut ties completely with this "son of Taiwan".
The whole story started from some 8 years ago, when Taiwan made history with the tiny opposition party ousting the KMT government which was said to be corrupt, blah,blah, blah....great day for demoncracy, example for all undemocratic countries to follow. The fact is, when ah bian took over the government, nobody from the ex government was found to be corrupt. But for the next 8 years....the Sogo's saga involving the first lady, the insider trading involving the president's son in law..... all these appear to be just tips of the iceberge. Was it democracy in Taiwan that has allowed the president to use government funds to pay for his dog food.....
hail, taiwanese democracy....
Taiwan's political system at least allowed for open debate and access by the press to investigate and publish the details of ‘Taiwan’s Chen in corruption case’ - compared to Singapore's muzzled press, and the Singapore Government habit to sue for self-assessed injury from self-assumed defamatory statements even when the details are well known concerning the FIRST Family appointment to Government Linked Companies.
Are you now claiming that the Taiwanese political system do not give the Taiwanese Citizens wider political latitude compared to Singaporeans ?
For all its supposed bickering, the Taiwanese economy has given opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs - earning Foreign Exchange to boost its Reserves.
opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs? hahaha...the small and medium size companies in taiwan are nowhere to be found today. Nothing to do with politics, it is globalization and economic of scale. The successful and the non successful taiwanese companies are all in China today. The economic miracle of Taiwan started when the Jiang junior ruled the country, and LKY learned much from him. The success has nothing to do with the politics, definitely not the current 民进党。
Did LKY learn how to run Singapore's economy from Chiang Ching-kuo ?
Where did you get your information from, or did you depend on your own interpretation of history in the same manner that LKY re-wrote Singapore's history ?
LKY was in the political hot seat since 1957, when Chiang only assumed political office in 1972 till 1978 - a time when Singapore was already into industrialisation with Jurong being reclaimed as early as the late 1960s.
Can any economy thrive without the existence of SME's today ?
Even as the Singapore Government has belatedly recognised the role of the SME - which it had discouraged in the 1970s in favor of supposedly larger enterprises that they claimed offer economies of scale, the Taiwanese government had formed a Taiwan Ministry of Economic Affairs committed to legal advocacy for SMEs.
Taking an extract from an Asian Development Bank report, it indicated that in 2006 the Taiwanese had ‘Services accounting for 73% of GDP dominated by small and medium enterprises’.
The success of Taiwanese enterprise was not a result of politics, in the same manner as the heavy handed Political Interference of the PAP in every aspect of Singapore's Life had allowed the PAP Government to monopolise the political and economic spectrums for their own selfish benefit.
After 51 years, we now know the ultimate goal - Ministerial appointment and GLC appointment that pays millions.
gullible psuedo-intellect who believe ... dont' use such statement liberally, it ends up describing yourself.
When using such a term to criticise others, I try to spit it in the right direction and to be certain that it is not against the wind.
Do you know which side the wind is blowing before attempting to spit yours ?
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Taiwan's democratic is an absolute disgrace to the word democracy.....losing party does not want to admit lose. I believe in demostration but when the peaceful demostration turned into violent. What will the world see in this type of democracy...barbarian.....
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Another gullible psuedo-intellect who believe the PAP lie - that democracy will lead to constant bickering and is bad for the economy.Despite 51 years of Politics dominated by a single Political Party - Singapore was the first Asian country to declare it is in recession.
With 51 years of a monolithic political party in power, this Singapore Government has created a rich Reserve by sucking the hard earned monies of the Citizens, all of whom are made dependent on a sole source for employment and for all the essential services - all owned by Government Linked Companies.
For all its supposed bickering, Taiwan has been able to throw out a corrupt political leadership and yet the Government is not paralysed.
For all its supposed bickering, the Taiwanese economy has given opportunities to all her citizens to succeed as entrepreneurs - earning Foreign Exchange to boost its Reserves.
Has Singapore any World Leading Consumer brand names or products comparable to the Taiwanese that are sought after by World-wide consumers ?
What a fool Atobe is! Taiwan is a laughing stock of Asia! I must admire President Ma's patience with these hooligans who use violence in the guise of 'protests'. They do not respect the law and deserves to be treated according to the full measure of the law. Taiwan is a good lesson to us: western-style liberal democracy is not suitable for us. With the likes of fools like Atobe around, we are just not ready for it.
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For all its public protests and all-day political commentaries on TV, despite all its so-called transparency and a fiercely critical and highly intrusive media, has Taiwan got rid of corruption? It is more than a tad ironical that the president who constantly claims to espouse democracy, liberty and human rights has turned out to be the most corrupt taiwanese leader of recent history.
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i dont like singapore, but taiwan gives me the impression of country of uncivilised hooligans
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I guess the problem with our asian gahmen thing is no want like to lose. See thailand, select the party now protesting over the party just months after election. Taiwan worst, they expecting drastic changes within months of the new party take over and the opposition instead of talking in the parliament, they took their action to the streets. Maybe they cannot do it because their parliament is simply like WWE, now they changing the street into a wrestling ring too. No wonder they are still not recognise world wide as a country yet.
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Please, a Taiwanese said this before Politics in Taiwan is a national sports down there.
The only difference is, instead of having fans rooting for manchester United and Liverpool, you have fans rooting for the KMT and the DPP.
Even if the ideas brought forward by one party sucks, peopl will still support them for the sake of supporting them.
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There's lots of hooligans in Taiwan alright and it starts from the government. I think got to do with the history of Taiwan itself. They used to be run by gansters and hooligans from KMT under chang kai shek. The current demonstration to the China visit is quite a show.
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Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:
i dont like singapore, but taiwan gives me the impression of country of uncivilised hooligans
prc girls actually say they like tw men more because they appear more cultural compared to prc men
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
What a fool Atobe is! Taiwan is a laughing stock of Asia! I must admire President Ma's patience with these hooligans who use violence in the guise of 'protests'. They do not respect the law and deserves to be treated according to the full measure of the law. Taiwan is a good lesson to us: western-style liberal democracy is not suitable for us. With the likes of fools like Atobe around, we are just not ready for it.
Only a fool will believe that everyone is a fool.
Can we believe the foolishness of a parasite ?
You claim that Taiwan is a laughing stock of Asia, but will immediately in the next sentence described that "I must admire President Ma's patience with these hooligans".
Is President Ma not part of Taiwanese politics that you claimed to be "the laughing stock of Asia" ?
Only the foolishness of a parasite will propagate indiscriminately as much as it will undiscerningly consume all that is offered by others - who have more superior cunning than what a parasitical spore can only hope to have.
With the stunted mind of a parasitical spore - that depend on others for its own survival - can anyone expect it to have higher expectations or ambitions for a better life, when all that it prefer is the status quo that will not disrupt its parasitical life ?
Edible mushrooms are meant to be consumed, poison ones to be destroyed - should anyone listen to the loud foolishness of big headed mushrooms ?
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Taiwan's political system at least allowed for open debate and access by the press to investigate and publish the details of ‘Taiwan’s Chen in corruption case’ - compared to Singapore's muzzled press, and the Singapore Government habit to sue for self-assessed injury from self-assumed defamatory statements even when the details are well known concerning the FIRST Family appointment to Government Linked Companies.
Are you now claiming that the Taiwanese political system do not give the Taiwanese Citizens wider political latitude compared to Singaporeans ?
Did LKY learn how to run Singapore's economy from Chiang Ching-kuo ?
Where did you get your information from, or did you depend on your own interpretation of history in the same manner that LKY re-wrote Singapore's history ?
LKY was in the political hot seat since 1957, when Chiang only assumed political office in 1972 till 1978 - a time when Singapore was already into industrialisation with Jurong being reclaimed as early as the late 1960s.
Can any economy thrive without the existence of SME's today ?
Even as the Singapore Government has belatedly recognised the role of the SME - which it had discouraged in the 1970s in favor of supposedly larger enterprises that they claimed offer economies of scale, the Taiwanese government had formed a Taiwan Ministry of Economic Affairs committed to legal advocacy for SMEs.
Taking an extract from an Asian Development Bank report, it indicated that in 2006 the Taiwanese had ‘Services accounting for 73% of GDP dominated by small and medium enterprises’.
The success of Taiwanese enterprise was not a result of politics, in the same manner as the heavy handed Political Interference of the PAP in every aspect of Singapore's Life had allowed the PAP Government to monopolise the political and economic spectrums for their own selfish benefit.
After 51 years, we now know the ultimate goal - Ministerial appointment and GLC appointment that pays millions.
When using such a term to criticise others, I try to spit it in the right direction and to be certain that it is not against the wind.
Do you know which side the wind is blowing before attempting to spit yours ?
To be honest, I haven't read LKY's menoir. I heard about Singapore and Taiwan relationship, LKY and Jiang JK in the following Taiwanese program, presented by Taiwanese political analysts. Apparently Singapore built the jurong industrial estate, like the xinzhu industrial estate in Taiwan. In a certain year, in a regional economic downturn, Singapore had no growth but Taiwan maintained a 6% growth, that was when Jiang told LKY the secret, investment in research and development in Technology and in Human Resources. I guess this is extended to these days, when we are putting so much emphasis on the elites, the FT, and for the same reason, countries like Malaysia can dedicate a big piece of land called Multi Media Corridor, or logistic hub,...but cannot succeed. The original idea came from Jiang JK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0TSNy3Yk50&fmt=18
I stand corrected for the statement on the taiwanese SME. I do recognise the fact that in Singapore, young people come out from colleges and universities to look for employment, while Taiwanese come out hoping to start new businesses. Singaporeans, because we speak english, there are many opportunities in the MNCs, but there are few Taiwanese who graduate speaking english (only those who went overseas), so they either work in the local companies or start their own.
In the early days of development, the Taiwanese could start small factories in the remote areas outside Taichung, to manufacture products for export, or nearby Xinzhu or Yunlin to support the big manufacturers in those industrial estates. No expensive rentals, no rules, not even the environmental protection rules to follow, could employ farmers nearby, if not just buy some local made machineries (copied). Besides, they have sizable local markets.
There are reasons why Taiwan develops the way they do. Their government played a part but not all. The big taiwanese conglomerates started during the rule of KMT, but we don't hear any new taiwanese companies developed during the rule of ah bian, democratically elected, ruled with full democracy, but did nothing for the economy.
Singapore government is playing a much bigger role in trade and economic development in Singapore, for Singapore. From the start, the then english speaking elites didn't need to start own business, those from RI went to government service, those from ACS went to become lawyers and accountants, the Chinese speaking businessmen ended up dealt with Indonesians and Malaysians... besides, the market in Singapore was not big enough for SME to do local business. So is it right or wrong for the government to play a bigger role? I am not an enterpreneur myself, I hope my sons can be...but if they wait for the government, they will never be...
Finally, the direction of the wind here in this forum is against everything and anything, closely or remotely linked, or no linked to PAP. Luckily I don't spit, so I don't care whichever is the wind directiion.
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
For all its public protests and all-day political commentaries on TV, despite all its so-called transparency and a fiercely critical and highly intrusive media, has Taiwan got rid of corruption? It is more than a tad ironical that the president who constantly claims to espouse democracy, liberty and human rights has turned out to be the most corrupt taiwanese leader of recent history.
Are you implying that a closed society in Singapore have eradicated corruption completely ?At least, open democracies have allowed "the critical and highly intrusive media" to expose the corruption - compared to the events in Singapore where scandolous events are hidden and kept under wraps until the matter is leaked out and cannot be further suppressed.
A determined thief will be able to break into the strongest bank - with your level of intelligence - can you hope to stop the thief in any foolproof manner ?
In 51 years of parliamentary democracy - LKY style - he could not prevent two of his hand-picked ministers and his senior Party executive member from corruption, and had to resort to appeasing the human corruptible instinct with money.
The Taiwanese experience with democracy is far shorter than Singapore's.
Is it not ironical that despite your self-acclaimed western education, you will deride the Taiwanese for their immature political behavior when you are no better than the Taiwanese in your slanderous political attitude towards Singaporeans - who dare offer themselves to represent Singaporeans - as seen in your attitude being no better than the disrespectful and slanderous politics practised by the Taiwanese ?
Taiwan is not the only democracy that has problem with corruption, as scandals have occurred in democracies older than Taiwan's - such as in France, Italy, and the USA.
Checks and balances exist in mature First World societies that have allowed their respective citizens to enjoy the liberties and higher quality of Life - that encompasses not merely the material spectrum alone.
Can we hope for a parasite to appreciate such nuances when all it can do is survive in a parasitical form ?
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
To be honest, I haven't read LKY's menoir. I heard about Singapore and Taiwan relationship, LKY and Jiang JK in the following Taiwanese program, presented by Taiwanese political analysts. Apparently Singapore built the jurong industrial estate, like the xinzhu industrial estate in Taiwan. In a certain year, in a regional economic downturn, Singapore had no growth but Taiwan maintained a 6% growth, that was when Jiang told LKY the secret, investment in research and development in Technology and in Human Resources. I guess this is extended to these days, when we are putting so much emphasis on the elites, the FT, and for the same reason, countries like Malaysia can dedicate a big piece of land called Multi Media Corridor, or logistic hub,...but cannot succeed. The original idea came from Jiang JK.
Seriously, if you believe the trivial self-aggrandizing gossip programs of Taiwanese broadcast, you can then believe almost every gossip on earth.
Singapore's economic success was the brain child of Dr Goh Keng Swee advised by a Dutch national Dr Albert Winsemius - who arrive into Singapore in 1960 - and not some myth that LKY being the prime mover by listening to Chiang Ching-kuo.
I stand corrected for the statement on the taiwanese SME. I do recognise the fact that in Singapore, young people come out from colleges and universities to look for employment, while Taiwanese come out hoping to start new businesses. Singaporeans, because we speak english, there are many opportunities in the MNCs, but there are few Taiwanese who graduate speaking english (only those who went overseas), so they either work in the local companies or start their own.
In the early days of development, the Taiwanese could start small factories in the remote areas outside Taichung, to manufacture products for export, or nearby Xinzhu or Yunlin to support the big manufacturers in those industrial estates. No expensive rentals, no rules, not even the environmental protection rules to follow, could employ farmers nearby, if not just buy some local made machineries (copied). Besides, they have sizable local markets.
There are reasons why Taiwan develops the way they do. Their government played a part but not all. The big taiwanese conglomerates started during the rule of KMT, but we don't hear any new taiwanese companies developed during the rule of ah bian, democratically elected, ruled with full democracy, but did nothing for the economy.
In any political forms, Government will always have a part to play in developing and providing the space for enterprise and enterpreneurship - as it must provide the infrastructure and some sense of security for investment to take place.
While the Taiwanese Government provide the frame work for private enterprise to succeed, it also participate in the competitive environment of free enterprise, which is unlike that of the Singapore circumstance where Government Linked Companies will trample the small and medium businesses.
'Ah Bian' had his own political obligations to fulfill after stepping into the Presidency, as his political agenda was not his own but that of previous President Lee Teng-hui - whose main goal was to strive for the independence of Taiwan.
This explains for Ah Bian's wasted two terms of economic inactivity which resulted in Taiwan's economy floundering on its own strength from Private Enterprise that allowed Taiwan to stay afloat even as Singapore was the FIRST Asian country to declare going into recession.
After experiencing the second and third economic downturns, each time Singapore had organised Economic Review Committee - in 1997 and repeated again in 2002; with both reports encouraging the lower absorption of private money into the CPF and allowing private capital to release the entrepreneurial spirit of Singaporeans.
Both reports had reasoned that small and medium enterprise should be encouraged to grow as it can provide employment opportunities that are more resilliant towards changes in economic circumstances.
Singapore government is playing a much bigger role in trade and economic development in Singapore, for Singapore. From the start, the then english speaking elites didn't need to start own business, those from RI went to government service, those from ACS went to become lawyers and accountants, the Chinese speaking businessmen ended up dealt with Indonesians and Malaysians... besides, the market in Singapore was not big enough for SME to do local business. So is it right or wrong for the government to play a bigger role? I am not an enterpreneur myself, I hope my sons can be...but if they wait for the government, they will never be...
I believe that the correct statement made was that RI students go into government and hold political power, while ACS students go into commerce to hold economic power.
Some students from both schools became very good lawyers and accountants, as well as engineers and other professions as Singapore's economic growth opened up alot more employment opportunities, at the expense of small and medium business. whose growth were stifled by the unfair competition from GLCs.
GLCs have been discovered to plagiarised local designers' patents through reverse engineering and modifying the product designs to by-pass patents. If not for some other Government agencies acting as "angel investors" in new enterprises, the fight with the mamoth GLC would have been lost from the start.
Government involvement should be limited to infrastructure and strategic industries that are seen to be vital to the interest of the country, and should not use Public Funds to set up enterprises that swamp Private Enterprise.
Finally, the direction of the wind here in this forum is against everything and anything, closely or remotely linked, or no linked to PAP. Luckily I don't spit, so I don't care whichever is the wind directiion.
Yaks, if you do not spit, then you will have to swallow your phlegm.
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Taiwan has more political freedom than us but some ppl abuse that freedom to commit crime such as fighting in the legislature and violent protests on streets.