Two party system cannot work here
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Originally posted by Meat Pao:
Make two parties system for what...?
It will bring factionalism.
Factionalism is a serious cost and will render Singapore worse off than before.
First, let us think clearer.....in my opinion, these ideas about two-parties system, or other permutations and ideas, are being discussed due to a general feeling that there is a disconnect between the government and the governed. Some people are bored and want to see change. However, it cannot be assumed that two-parties system or more vibrant political landscape will bring political contentment, or results. It cannot be assumed that this is the pill, the prescription.
We just need to look at factionalism and party politics in other countries and see what the result is, and how it affects common people. Are ordinary people in those countries neccessarily more politically contented, and feel more in touch and connected with the government elites..?
I just dont think so.
This is not the solution. Maybe there is no solution.
But one thing is for sure, more factionalism = more chaos, slower decision making, it is bad for Singapore.
Fractionalism?
Then remove partisan politics and let MPs vote on issues based on it's own merits.
Fractionalism is another lame excuse to propagate a dictatorial regime.
Maybe you can propose monarchy, where the Emperor rules by mandate of heaven, therefore no fractionalism will occur. But frankly, is such a rule beneficial to the citizens? If it was, then the monarchys in China, Russia, etc would have continued with their rule and democracies would have been a wild musing.
The way I see it, fractionalism is another lame excuse for the Lee Dynasty to perpetuate.
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Why does it have to be Lee Dynasty this....Lee Dynasty that...
Lets leave that issue aside for a moment.....or ok...lets talk about it....
In my opinion, people should not overemphasize on this issue, because there are certain human limitations that we are functioning in as a society. I think we just have a natural tendency in this matter.
For example, it is common to see a doctor father, son becomes a doctor too. Or a soldier father, son become a soldier.
In terms of social acceptance, a family connection does have its effect. It does have an influence, and I see it work as recently as in US election (Hillary Clinton, wife of a president, and George.W.Bush, son of a president) , so in this case, Singapore is not much different than the so-called democratic country like USA, or Philipines, where senator son become senator. Or Pakistan, where a husband of a leader become a leader himself.
So what does it all mean...? It means there is something intrinsic, innate, about family connections and how we function as a society. For better or worse, this is just how we are as humans, and how we view other people. Just accept it. For thousands of years we are like this, and we will be like this for thousands years more.
Now to come back to the issue of two-party system. In my opinion, this will be probably the most foolish non-solution ever to be devised. You will sabotage yourself severely. Because this situation will bring factionalism. If you have people grouped into two groups, give it two banners, two names, they will start to fight each other. It is very simple. Just like two group of football fans who support two different teams. Sometimes if you watch hooligans videos fight each other, you would wonder, why in the world they fight each other, no rhyme no reason, just different banners and names and colours.
But the factionalism in football hooligan fights is the same with factionalism in politics.
We just see countries like USA, Democrats vs Republicans, or Taiwan KMT vs DPP, or even like India with its multi-party, or Indonesia, Thailand, all the same, I guarantee you the same will happen in Singapore, in fact it has already happened and is happening and ongoing in Singapore, but with a smaller scale, because there is one much dominant party. But it has in fact manifested itself, and brought costs to Singapore and its ordinary people. One example is the selective upgrading, no rhyme no reason, poor people cannot have better HDB or better street lights because of factionalism in parliament. This is one concrete example. There will be more such cases if two-party system ever were to be foolishly created in Singapore.
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maybe that why hilary clinton din won the dual with obama.
maybe that why Bush was very much hatred by Americans and cant wait for him to go.
maybe thaksin bro in law is deem to fail in thailand.
maybe in americans they call the Bush dynasty?
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Fractionalism?
Then remove partisan politics and let MPs vote on issues based on it's own merits.
Fractionalism is another lame excuse to propagate a dictatorial regime.
Maybe you can propose monarchy, where the Emperor rules by mandate of heaven, therefore no fractionalism will occur. But frankly, is such a rule beneficial to the citizens? If it was, then the monarchys in China, Russia, etc would have continued with their rule and democracies would have been a wild musing.
The way I see it, fractionalism is another lame excuse for the Lee Dynasty to perpetuate.
i believe the behaviour of the people around me best reflects society, whenever there's no strong visible leader who can strong arm people to do what they want, a lot of trouble start coming up. during my work also this kind of stuff happen. politics happen where i look unless manager strong enough to imprint his/her ideas
even playing soccer same thing, the people i play with day in day out keep losing to much weaker teams because everyone have their own ideas on how their team should play. ironically the better players had to bow to the weaker ones to keep the team together.
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I am partly responsible for creating the society around me, either one where "leader who can strong arm people to do what they want", or one where "better players had to bow to the weaker ones to keep the team together"
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i believe the behaviour of the people around me best reflects society, whenever there's no strong visible leader who can strong arm people to do what they want, a lot of trouble start coming up. during my work also this kind of stuff happen. politics happen where i look unless manager strong enough to imprint his/her ideas
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Originally posted by Meat Pao:
Why does it have to be Lee Dynasty this....Lee Dynasty that...
Lets leave that issue aside for a moment.....or ok...lets talk about it....
In my opinion, people should not overemphasize on this issue, because there are certain human limitations that we are functioning in as a society. I think we just have a natural tendency in this matter.
For example, it is common to see a doctor father, son becomes a doctor too. Or a soldier father, son become a soldier.
In terms of social acceptance, a family connection does have its effect. It does have an influence, and I see it work as recently as in US election (Hillary Clinton, wife of a president, and George.W.Bush, son of a president) , so in this case, Singapore is not much different than the so-called democratic country like USA, or Philipines, where senator son become senator. Or Pakistan, where a husband of a leader become a leader himself.
So what does it all mean...? It means there is something intrinsic, innate, about family connections and how we function as a society. For better or worse, this is just how we are as humans, and how we view other people. Just accept it. For thousands of years we are like this, and we will be like this for thousands years more.
Now to come back to the issue of two-party system. In my opinion, this will be probably the most foolish non-solution ever to be devised. You will sabotage yourself severely. Because this situation will bring factionalism. If you have people grouped into two groups, give it two banners, two names, they will start to fight each other. It is very simple. Just like two group of football fans who support two different teams. Sometimes if you watch hooligans videos fight each other, you would wonder, why in the world they fight each other, no rhyme no reason, just different banners and names and colours.
But the factionalism in football hooligan fights is the same with factionalism in politics.
We just see countries like USA, Democrats vs Republicans, or Taiwan KMT vs DPP, or even like India with its multi-party, or Indonesia, Thailand, all the same, I guarantee you the same will happen in Singapore, in fact it has already happened and is happening and ongoing in Singapore, but with a smaller scale, because there is one much dominant party. But it has in fact manifested itself, and brought costs to Singapore and its ordinary people. One example is the selective upgrading, no rhyme no reason, poor people cannot have better HDB or better street lights because of factionalism in parliament. This is one concrete example. There will be more such cases if two-party system ever were to be foolishly created in Singapore.
The Lee Dynasty is facts which you can't deny, choose to cover your ears and ignore your cowbells if you want (yan e dao ling), but that doesn't prevent others from hearing the bells.Do you think LHL is the ONLY person in Singapore capable of leading? Think about the Lee family, all the family members who have attained high post. Are their post conferred to them by way of Imperial Decree or based on their own personal merits? He's got a son working as a CEO in a government linked company and wife who is head of Temasek. Are they the only BEST person in Singapore to head these companies? Temasek made substantial losses in most of it's overseas investments, they try to recuperate loses in overseas investments by charging excessively for it's monopoly businesses in Singapore. Is Cronyism the kind of system you want Singapore to propagate? My bet is, you still want to see Hong Yi as the next PM of Singapore.
I don't know what era you belong to, the kind of ideology which prescribes sons to the same profession as the father seemed to have been lost in the last generation. Thanks for bring up Geoge Bush and Hillary Clinton, these are but a small minor percentage of the total population of leaders, therefore it is not representative of the whole population. Else, we would see John Hanson IV still the president of the USA.
True democracies have laws that prevent the a person to perpetuate his/her own family members. Two terms is the maximum for USA, even China has laws governning the perpetual dynastic rule. You might as well bring in the Kims from North Korea, where power is passed on to the son by coronation. I suppose North Korea only has one capable person to lead the country? There is a clear distinction between democracy and dictatorship, but unfortunately you are not able to distinguish the two. For thousands of years? Do you mean the Qing Dynasty?
I agree that there is something "intrinsic" in family connections, it's called cronyism. Where we give high level positions to our sons and daugthers not based on their abilities, but the relationship that exist. That's why you see major overseas investments failing or overpaid for. Look at Global Crossing, Shin Corp and Merill Lynch just to cite afew. Fragmentation? Fight each other? What are they fighting for? Their own personal rewards or Singaporeans?
Ultimately these different party political parties must be fighting for Singaporeans, if a partisan political system is of a big issue to you, then perhaps we should scrap political parties altogether and let candidates vote on issues based on their own merits, let each candidate fight his own battles and stand his own ground in his own district.As we have seen with many cases in politics and businesses, having a sole political party to self govern and regulate itself is impossible. Think of it this way, if you are the CEO of a big corporation with unlimited power. What's there to prevent you from sucking excessively from the corporation? Shareholders? But in Singapore's political context, we have been white washed by the CEO's domineering media, which only shows issues from the PAP perspective.
Think Durai when he had control of the board, how much did he pay himself? Peanuts by comparison to Ministerial pay. If multi party political system is not the vision of the future, then what is? North Korean's single party political system, where Kim regulate Kim?
Look at Switzerland, once the political aspiration of the older Lee.
Politics of Switzerland takes place in the framework of a multi-party federal parliamentary democratic republic, whereby the Federal Council of Switzerland is the head of government. Executive power is exercised by the government and the federal administration. Federal legislative power is vested in both the government and the two chambers of the Federal Assembly of Switzerland. The judiciary is independent of the executive and the legislature. For any change in the constitution, a referendum is mandatory; for any change in a law, a referendum can be requested. Through referendums, citizens may challenge any law voted by federal parliament and through initiatives introduce amendments to the federal constitution, making Switzerland the closest state in the world to a direct democracy.
Do we see fights in the Swiss parliament?
If you look at the broader issues of all these countries which you have cited, Thailand, Taiwan and Indonesia. Why do you think their version of democracy failed? These countries also have widespread corruption and a failed system of checks and balances. You need to set in place a system where a multi political party system exist and give some powers to the president to prevent abuse by the ruling political party. A single dominant party is easier to managed, any skeletons you can just keep it in your backyard and nobody will know of it, you don't even need to keep it in the closet.
Maybe, perhaps the world should seriously consider your proposal, every country should only have ONE party political system, then perhaps we would hear less of scandals and corruption.
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one word....PAP dominate talent...other parties..got no talent
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Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
one word....PAP dominate talent...other parties..got no talent
Can put it another way too.PAP suppress talents from other parties.
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Can put it another way too.PAP suppress talents from other parties.
by $$$$€€€€€€$$$$$$
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I am 100% sure that Kim in North Korea would be ranting about how a multi party political system would be detrimental for the prospects of North Korea too. I think he too would cite examples like Taiwan, Thailand and Indonesia.
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Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
one word....PAP dominate talent...other parties..got no talent
no lah, PAP dominated the fear factor of singapore, they dominated those talents who fear them, for the rest, already pack up and left already.So all of us here are not talented, in singapore hor, u try not to be too talented, or else....
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Originally posted by angel7030:
no lah, PAP dominated the fear factor of singapore, they dominated those talents who fear them, for the rest, already pack up and left already.So all of us here are not talented, in singapore hor, u try not to be too talented, or else....
...in PAP for sure...
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Originally posted by reyes:
maybe that why hilary clinton din won the dual with obama.
maybe that why Bush was very much hatred by Americans and cant wait for him to go.
maybe thaksin bro in law is deem to fail in thailand.
maybe in americans they call the Bush dynasty?
By January 2009, All americans will shave away their body Bushes to show support for Obama. No more Bush liao. -
_|_ also
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Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
...in PAP for sure...
...working on how to suck the citizens dry.By the way, u know the answer very well, u got talent.
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Originally posted by SBS n SMRT:
_|_ also
All Bushes, u understand what is all bushes must be remove by January 2009. Including armpits bushes, leg bushes, ear bushes...rear bushes etc etc -
Originally posted by angel7030:
All Bushes, u understand what is all bushes must be remove by January 2009. Including armpits bushes, leg bushes, ear bushes...rear bushes etc etc
after removing then do waxing -
cannot work? What is CST and LTK? same party as all? It is working and has been working and is working.
The question is "Is the PM gracious enough to appreciate talent and make use of them regardless of political parties like that of other countries.?"
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Originally posted by noahnoah:
after removing then do waxing
laser it. -
Leadership should not be passed down the line of family members. Can see that history taught us all dynasty/empire pass down through generations will eventually be self destruct.
Comic or cartoon version of "Crying Freeman" gives a very good idea how to pass down leadership in the mafia. Meaning cannot passdown family members. Outsiders must be chosen to ensure that NO COMPLACENCY and also to encourage NEW IDEAS and CREATIVITY on how the operations is to be run.
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Originally posted by TemplarKnight:
Leadership should not be passed down the line of family members. Can see that history taught us all dynasty/empire pass down through generations will eventually be self destruct.
Comic or cartoon version of "Crying Freeman" gives a very good idea how to pass down leadership in the mafia. Meaning cannot passdown family members. Outsiders must be chosen to ensure that NO COMPLACENCY and also to encourage NEW IDEAS and CREATIVITY on how the operations is to be run.
Please Dun label our govt as Cartoonist. They are paid more than Mickey Mouse n gangs. -
You miss the point. We are the joke.
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Originally posted by TemplarKnight:
You miss the point. We are the joke.
A defamation charge causing millions and opposition went bankrupt and you said "Joke"?? -
we are the joke of democracy in other countries. Isn't it.
"to build a DEMOCRATIC society, based on JUSTICE and EQUALITY"
Have we achieve any of that? Demonic society more likely. With JUSTICE Kangaroos hoppin around and heads paid world class call EQUALITY. Really joke of the century. Common folk like us hide in forum and KPKB. When ask to take action all pee in the pants. Say later ghamen sued for defamation make bankrupt how? How to support my family etc etc....
It really makes pple laugh. A very ironic and sad joke that is.
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of coz, why share good things in the 1st place