Electricity prices must go down
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Originally posted by skythewood:
let's say start is 100.
after increase ==> 100 x1.22
122after decrease ==> 122 x 0.75
91.5any working error in my maths?
Then 100 at oil price of USD 147?91.5 at oil price of USD 48?
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next month opec meeting, oil supply cut again = our electricity bill gonna rise again..
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Originally posted by skythewood:
If oil price is zero, electricity price drop to zero? there are other factors than the price of oil, such as the salary of the workers converting the oil, cost of maintaining the power plant and so on.
still, oil is a major factor in the pricing. since you mentioned forward price was used to calculate the last increase, what is the forward price now? is it also <50? cos current price is not equal to forward price.
Nope I din say that.
Again, I am just asking you, you agree it's alright that the main factor of increase in our electricity bills is the price of crude oil, and then also agree that the factors of a decrease of our electricity bills becomes a combo of various factors?
Coz, that's the way the govt is selling you those reasons.
Price increase -> Coz crude oil increase, no choice.
Price decrease just a bit -> Coz electricity price is a combo of lots of factors, NOT JUST crude oil. So can't decrease much.
What happened to all the cost effective measures to ensure that even if crude oil price goes up, they can control that so-called 50% of costs so that the people don't get taxed so heavily?
I don't know what is their 'forward' crude oil price now. Coz in my opinion, it's all rubbish. It's just showing how useless our investment experts are.
Last round, hedge oil price at so high a price -> then crude oil price goes down. The whole world, many countries was reducing electricity costs, we are the ONLY one that went up. And you agree?
Then now crude oil price came so low, they are hedging it at a higher price so that results in our electricity costs coming down by so little?
It makes sense to you?
IT doesn't make sense to me.It's all govt propaganda to cover the stupidity of their actions, so that even though they have lost so much $$$ in the financial market, they can still tax more from the citizens again.
Also I would like to enquire if you are working or you are a student?
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Then 100 at oil price of USD 147?91.5 at oil price of USD 48?
is it 122 ==> 147 estimate of future oil price
91.5 ==> some unknown estimate of future oil price?
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
Nope I din say that.
Again, I am just asking you, you agree it's alright that the main factor of increase in our electricity bills is the price of crude oil, and then also agree that the factors of a decrease of our electricity bills becomes a combo of various factors?
Coz, that's the way the govt is selling you those reasons.
Price increase -> Coz crude oil increase, no choice.
Price decrease just a bit -> Coz electricity price is a combo of lots of factors, NOT JUST crude oil. So can't decrease much.
What happened to all the cost effective measures to ensure that even if crude oil price goes up, they can control that so-called 50% of costs so that the people don't get taxed so heavily?
I don't know what is their 'forward' crude oil price now. Coz in my opinion, it's all rubbish. It's just showing how useless our investment experts are.
Last round, hedge oil price at so high a price -> then crude oil price goes down. The whole world, many countries was reducing electricity costs, we are the ONLY one that went up. And you agree?
Then now crude oil price came so low, they are hedging it at a higher price so that results in our electricity costs coming down by so little?
It makes sense to you?
IT doesn't make sense to me.It's all govt propaganda to cover the stupidity of their actions, so that even though they have lost so much $$$ in the financial market, they can still tax more from the citizens again.
Also I would like to enquire if you are working or you are a student?
price go up or go down is the same factor, oil price, and a combo of other factors. before the increase, what was the oil price it was pegged to? 100USD? than after increase it is pegged to 147USD? 47% increase?or was it 120USD go up to 147USD, 20% increase?
i don't want to throw random number around, so maybe someone find the actual number it is pegged to.
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Decrease too little. They thought we are idiots. They just wanted to make us feel that they decrease a lot by decrease a liitle more than 22% (which is 25%).
When that is a increase, they will increase the maximum. When that is a decrease, they will decrease the minimum.
To me they just decrease only 3%.
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Originally posted by skythewood:
price go up or go down is the same factor, oil price, and a combo of other factors. before the increase, what was the oil price it was pegged to? 100USD? than after increase it is pegged to 147USD? 47% increase?or was it 120USD go up to 147USD, 20% increase?
i don't want to throw random number around, so maybe someone find the actual number it is pegged to.
Again, you did not answer my question, nor do you seemed to read the announcements from our govt carefully.
Qn 1. Do you agree with the govt, that the increase in Electric Charges is dependent mainly on the increase in crude oil price? This is THEIR own words, becoz that's how everyone on the streets sees it. Crude oil increase = our bills increase. There is no talk about how to manage the other 50% of costs to help to offset the increase in crude oil
Qn2. Do you agree with the govt, that the decrease in Electric Charges becomes dependent on a combo of all factors, not just crude oil price decrease? So the decrease is limited coz ONLY NOW do they consider the other 50% of costs.
That's all I am asking, whether you accept the way they manipulate data to justify their own means.
So far after so many posts, you haven't replied this yet.
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Originally posted by sunnytv:
Decrease too little. They thought we are idiots. They just wanted to make us feel that they decrease a lot by decrease a liitle more than 22% (which is 25%).
When that is a increase, they will increase the maximum. When that is a decrease, they will decrease the minimum.
To me they just decrease only 3%.
I agree to the point that they decrease too little. Crude oil at 40+ and they only lower 25% from the super high charges they are charging us.
But just to bring to your attention, to be fair, the decrease is more than 3%. Coz the difference btw increase of 22% of a lower base, versus a decrease of 25% from a higher base, is > 3%. Someone in this forum wrote its close to 8.5%.
To me that's still unacceptable.
Oil Price hit a HIGH => Electricity charges hit a HIGH
Oil Price hit a LOW => Electricity charges DID NOT hit a LOW.
Someone in this forum can still accept the above, which is very interesting for me. I would like to question that person whether is he paying for the utility bills, or is someone else paying for it? Coz somehow I feel a lot of people who aren't paying the utility bills aren't as scrutinizing as those who do.
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AFP - Saturday, December 6
LONDON (AFP) - - The price of Brent crude oil slumped to 39.77 dollars a barrel in trading here on Friday -- the lowest point in almost four years -- on prospects of a severe drop in energy demand, traders said.
And there are people in singapore that accept only a 25% decrease in utility bills. No wonder the PAP is still so solidly in power, becoz these people do not know their rights and do not scrutinize the actions of the people at the top properly.
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Think the majority of Singaporeans kenna hustled by SP.
When Crude Oil was trading around US$95 in Jan 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 22.62 cents per kwh.
When Crude Oil was trading at around US$150 in Jun 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 25.07 cents per kwh.
When Crude Oil was trading at around US$75 in Oct 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 30.45 cents per kwh.
Come Jan 2009, they will reduce the price of electricity to 22.93 cents when the current Crude Oil price is below US$40. They are still overcharging us by using around US$95 Crude Oil price. Shouldn't the price of electricity be 16 cents per kwh?
The best part of their pricing strategy is that, THE MAJORITY (80%) OF OUR ELECTRICITY GENERATION COMES FROM NATURAL GAS AND NOT CRUDE OIL.
Singaporeans should wake up from their dreams and start thinking for themselves!!!
http://www.oilnergy.com/1onymex.htm#year
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Any idea where I can see the composition of SP's cost?
There is no talk about how to manage the other 50% of costs to help to offset the increase in crude oil
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NoOooOOooo.
I believe everything the government says.
They will never lie to us.
NOOoOoOoooo.
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Originally posted by charlize:
NoOooOOooo.
I believe everything the government says.
They will never lie to us.
NOOoOoOoooo.
ya ya ya, i hv been paying the bills all these months, they dun lie to us, there are constant supply of electricity all the time.Then i also them when is electricity bills going down, and they told me, "Hey lady, Use less electricity, the cost will go down"
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Hmm.. can't download the annual report from SP website.
Is it my own problem or they are running out of money to maintain website (joking....)
http://www.singaporepower.com.sg/pdf/pdf0708/SP_AR200708.pdf
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Thanks maurizio13 for showing us the data.
This skythewoods guy was still in self-delusion that the govt is fair in bringing it down by 25% and cannot bring down further coz of other costs.
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Electricity is 170...so ex...phone bill 100 plus...
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
Think the majority of Singaporeans kenna hustled by SP.
When Crude Oil was trading around US$95 in Jan 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 22.62 cents per kwh.
When Crude Oil was trading at around US$150 in Jun 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 25.07 cents per kwh.
When Crude Oil was trading at around US$75 in Oct 2008, the price of electricity charged by SP was 30.45 cents per kwh.
Come Jan 2009, they will reduce the price of electricity to 22.93 cents when the current Crude Oil price is below US$40. They are still overcharging us by using around US$95 Crude Oil price. Shouldn't the price of electricity be 16 cents per kwh?
The best part of their pricing strategy is that, THE MAJORITY (80%) OF OUR ELECTRICITY GENERATION COMES FROM NATURAL GAS AND NOT CRUDE OIL.
Singaporeans should wake up from their dreams and start thinking for themselves!!!
http://www.oilnergy.com/1onymex.htm#year
I'm rather curious. Do you think that we pay the price for the oil/NG yesterday, we can immediately put them to use today? The same way we just pick a litre of cooking oil and use them for dinner on the same day?You do realise the oil and NG has to be slowly allocated(You have to reserve some for domestic use) and then transported/funneled to Singapore right?
And you realise, considering the physical amount involved because the whole world wants some too (millions of barrels PER day) there's going to be a massive amount of calculations involved that isn't going to take a few days to resolve.
You also have to plan how you're going to distribute it ( How much barrels do i take from this site and where do i send it to )
You also realise, you need to calculate the amount you are going to use months before hand and pre order them so you won't run out of it while waiting for the next shipment?
You want Singaporeans to wake up and think for ourselves. Well, i did but i'm not so sure that you're doing that as well.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
I'm rather curious. Do you think that we pay the price for the oil/NG yesterday, we can immediately put them to use today? The same way we just pick a litre of cooking oil and use them for dinner on the same day?You do realise the oil and NG has to be slowly allocated(You have to reserve some for domestic use) and then transported/funneled to Singapore right?
And you realise, considering the physical amount involved because the whole world wants some too (millions of barrels PER day) there's going to be a massive amount of calculations involved that isn't going to take a few days to resolve.
You also have to plan how you're going to distribute it ( How much barrels do i take from this site and where do i send it to )
You also realise, you need to calculate the amount you are going to use months before hand and pre order them so you won't run out of it while waiting for the next shipment?
You want Singaporeans to wake up and think for ourselves. Well, i did but i'm not so sure that you're doing that as well.
I am not too concerned with the logistics side of the problem, companies who deal with power generation have the know how to resolve such issues.
What is more frustrating is the way they use forward prices to justify their prices. If you look at my previous comparisons of other countries like Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan and South Korea, all these countries have lower charges for electricity than Singapore. How is it that other countries are able to provide lower charge electricity to their citizens? Don't tell me you want to analyse their supply chain structure?
Something is wrong in Singapore, when government agencies which provide necessities are run as profit maximising monopolies. Monopolies have market power, if they choose to charge you at $1 per kwh, you can do nothing but Pay And Pay.When you look at the spot prices and the forward price, there is a huge discrepancy. Currently the crude oil prices are in the US$40 range, yet they still choose to charge Singaporeans based on an implied crude oil price of US$90.
This exercise is a good method of making up losses in the stock market from Temasek. How much do you think they made from the inflated charges for 3 months?
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Originally posted by maurizio13:
I am not too concerned with the logistics side of the problem, companies who deal with power generation have the know how to resolve such issues.
What is more frustrating is the way they use forward prices to justify their prices. If you look at my previous comparisons of other countries like Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan and South Korea, all these countries have lower charges for electricity than Singapore. How is it that other countries are able to provide lower charge electricity to their citizens? Don't tell me you want to analyse their supply chain structure?
Something is wrong in Singapore, when government agencies which provide necessities are run as profit maximising monopolies. Monopolies have market power, if they choose to charge you at $1 per kwh, you can do nothing but Pay And Pay.When you look at the spot prices and the forward price, there is a huge discrepancy. Currently the crude oil prices are in the US$40 range, yet they still choose to charge Singaporeans based on an implied crude oil price of US$90.
This exercise is a good method of making up losses in the stock market from Temasek. How much do you think they made from the inflated charges for 3 months?
They can have the knowhow, they certainly have the knowledge to make things more efficient they still cannot ignore geological differences and physical constraints (How much barrels you can squeeze on an oil tanker and how much oil tankers you've got)
One main difference between Singapore and the other countries (Taiwan, Hongkong, Korea) is that Singapore relies on LNG and oils for its energy generation while Taiwan, Hongkong and Korea relies on the cheaper, but far more polluting coal fired power plants. You can look this up if you want to, Singapore doesn't use coal fired power plants.
That is the main reason of the difference in power prices. This point here is crucial, because it also account for why our air is not as badly polluted as Hong Kong's.
{editted] I did a quick check, and it turns out the Hua neng owned Tuas Power is planning to build a supposedly 'clean' coal power plant. Whether it is truly clean or not i am not sure. But i just like to say this since i said Singapore doesn't used coal fired power plants.
I already stated the reason why it's at 90 now. Because the oil that we're using now was bought at $90. You need to pre order them a few months before to ensure you do not run out before the next shipment. Unless of course, that they do not furthur adjust the prices next year than your reasoning would hold weight.
How much could they make from the inflated charges? You forget they also had to pay more for the oil too, how much more could they have made?
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
They can have the knowhow, they certainly have the knowledge to make things more efficient they still cannot ignore geological differences and physical constraints (How much barrels you can squeeze on an oil tanker and how much oil tankers you've got)
One main difference between Singapore and the other countries (Taiwan, Hongkong, Korea) is that Singapore relies on LNG and oils for its energy generation while Taiwan, Hongkong and Korea relies on the cheaper, but far more polluting coal fired power plants. You can look this up if you want to, Singapore doesn't use coal fired power plants.
That is the main reason of the difference in power prices. This point here is crucial, because it also account for why our air is not as badly polluted as Hong Kong's.
{editted] I did a quick check, and it turns out the Hua neng owned Tuas Power is planning to build a supposedly 'clean' coal power plant. Whether it is truly clean or not i am not sure. But i just like to say this since i said Singapore doesn't used coal fired power plants.
I already stated the reason why it's at 90 now. Because the oil that we're using now was bought at $90. You need to pre order them a few months before to ensure you do not run out before the next shipment. Unless of course, that they do not furthur adjust the prices next year than your reasoning would hold weight.
How much could they make from the inflated charges? You forget they also had to pay more for the oil too, how much more could they have made?
I don't know why you want to help the ministers think. I also do not know why you want to help the power companies explain this fiasco.
I am a Business IT Expert, my paid job is to ensure my company's processes are optimized. I am not paid to think for the govt. I am not paid to help the power companies explain this fiasco.
All I see, as a layman, and as an honest citizen PAYING my utility bills (which I am not sure you do, since you aren't even scrutinizing the other supposedly 50% of costs as to whether they are optimizing those costs properly or not), is that when other countries electricity bills are lowered, ours went up.
All the talk above about supply chain doesn't concern me. I only see prices down so much, and our charges are still so high. And our electricity bills is one of the highest in the world.
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
I don't know why you want to help the ministers think. I also do not know why you want to help the power companies explain this fiasco.
I am a Business IT Expert, my paid job is to ensure my company's processes are optimized. I am not paid to think for the govt. I am not paid to help the power companies explain this fiasco.
All I see, as a layman, and as an honest citizen PAYING my utility bills (which I am not sure you do, since you aren't even scrutinizing the other supposedly 50% of costs as to whether they are optimizing those costs properly or not), is that when other countries electricity bills are lowered, ours went up.
All the talk above about supply chain doesn't concern me. I only see prices down so much, and our charges are still so high. And our electricity bills is one of the highest in the world.
Wow, someone who presume they know who i am. Just for your information, i do help with the family utility bills and groceries, and i make a point of keeping track of my monthly electrical bills to adjust my usage.
I am not paid to think for the government and i don't see why your job position as a Business IT Expert has anything to do with this discussion. Quite frankly, i'm actually disappointed that such a highly educated individual would fail to see how the world's supply chains would affect us.
Supply chains should concern us because we have to import every single thing we use. Considering that more than 90% of what we own is foreign made, what gives you the conclusion that supply chains would not and should not concern you?
And i've already answered the question of the higher electrical prices. Because we're using LNG for power generation, rather than the cheaper coal. Or would you accept my explanation better if i just said the Singapore ministers want to squeeze more money from us?
I merely offer a more objective reasoning to the raising electrical prices other than "the government is out to get us". If you feel my reasoning is wrong, point out what you feel is wrong.
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Is the demand for oil low because of the economical crisis?
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I would presume yes, considering that the banks aren't able/unwilling to provide the fundings for new projects or existing projects.
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
Thanks maurizio13 for showing us the data.
This skythewoods guy was still in self-delusion that the govt is fair in bringing it down by 25% and cannot bring down further coz of other costs.
do i look like the government? did i say the government is right? fuck you, fuck PAP. why can't i find out the truth instead of simply taking a stand? fuck PAP fuck PAP fuck PAP, why can't i investigate how they tagged the price of electricity before the increase?
Why must i take everything you say to be the truth, and take everything PAP to be false? fuck you.
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Originally posted by soul_rage:
Again, you did not answer my question, nor do you seemed to read the announcements from our govt carefully.
Qn 1. Do you agree with the govt, that the increase in Electric Charges is dependent mainly on the increase in crude oil price? This is THEIR own words, becoz that's how everyone on the streets sees it. Crude oil increase = our bills increase. There is no talk about how to manage the other 50% of costs to help to offset the increase in crude oil
Qn2. Do you agree with the govt, that the decrease in Electric Charges becomes dependent on a combo of all factors, not just crude oil price decrease? So the decrease is limited coz ONLY NOW do they consider the other 50% of costs.
That's all I am asking, whether you accept the way they manipulate data to justify their own means.
So far after so many posts, you haven't replied this yet.
Qns 1. read my post. you ask me if i agree, that means my opinions. did i or did i not say i think increase is a combo of factors?
Qns 2. read my post. you ask me if i agree, that means my opinions. did i or did i not say i think increase is a combo of factors?
why you keep saying i never answer your questions? why you refuse to understand my post? i didn't even say you are wrong. did i say once that fucking PAP who are bastards and fucktards and idiots are right? why are you so anti PAP to the point that you are trying to stop me to understand the rationale? why wh;y ;why?