Religious issues - Better to settle out of Court?
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Doing something does not mean doing it in an agitated way.
Silence is golden some time and some time silence is just being scared.
that's the problem, u get agitated and cannot control yourself, u start to retaliate on people who disturb you, and the trouble start to boil over. So, be cool, u can just walk away, smile or seek clarification in a polite manner, u dun have to bother about other disturbing you when nothing concern u or when there is no interest for you. At time, silence is Golden.
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Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:
In Singapore, muslim missionaries do not engage in active proselytizing of non-muslims. There is a muslim converts association which has an open door policy and there are members of the jamaat tabligh who conduct outreach programs to fellow muslims and encourage them to be more observant. The Majlis Ugama Islam Singapura (MUIS) is a government body and as such muslim activities in Singapore are very much in line with the policies of the Singapore Government. Unlicensed preachers are not allowed to practise in Singapore mosques and the ISD keeps a close tab on foreign and unlicensed preachers. In general, the majority of Singaporean muslims perceive their interests to be in line with that of the majority of Singapore society. Where there are points of friction, a consultative body is usually set up to address the issue with input from the Islamic scholars from MUIS. Madrasahs in Singapore work hand in hand with the MOE in curiculum development in order to produce scholars who are in tune with the Islamic and National development agenda.
Don’t rock the fucking boat assholes.
FIrst of all, thank you for that information. I am sure many who had not kept abreast of events would be gladden to know that efforts to promote religious harmony here is Singapore is working well.However, the fear is not of our fellow singapore citizens of muslim faith, whom we have the utmost trust, of fundamentalist Islam - using words from koran to govern society or the family unit.
It is those outside Singapore and their return to fundamentalism and its effect that will have on our shores that may prove worrisome.
Will it affect the overall community, and gain sympathy for their actions, afterall, they use the words from a similar deity which no mortal man may defy and yet claim faithfulness to its edicts?
Why not representatives be sent to the international communities, on what we had achieved, to around the world to clear misinterpretations of the holy book, and the unnecessary need to revert to fundamentalism to achieve spiritual growth, in both rich and poor or undeveloped areas?
And lastly, do spare us your angst. Calling others derisively who simply seek understanding is an open invitation to promote hate and clouded judgement responses.
Let's all calm down, withdraw all accusations, people from all sides, and rationally work towards a solution, with patience and fore-sightedness, shall we? If not for ourselves, at least for the sake of the next generations?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Wow, you can say that but when your kind FEELS agitated, the last thing they are, is being open-minded and willing to be "educated". Instead you people have to destroy other peoples' lives because they so-called "offended" you. How civilised is that?
Wow... I destroyed people's live... You know, that is defamation is Singapore law...
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I said "you people". Am I wrong in not distinguishing Muslims from Muslims?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
I said "you people". Am I wrong in not distinguishing Muslims from Muslims?
I'm gonna leave it like this... I wanted to make a point about Bigotry but this sentence just speaks for itself...
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Pray enlighten me. I dont have ESP.
I dont hate Islam or Muslims. Never have. But when legal cases like this happens. When a couple gets sued for distributing anti-Islam tracts, it just speaks for society. If the person reading is so offended, just throw the fucking piece of paper away. Why does he have to bring it to court and ruin the life of that couple?
It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper. The only thing it shows is that, that Muslim is so insecure over his faith and his God that he has to defend it by himself and by temporal means.
Its naturally for someone from a religion to think that he's is the one true religion. If not, why should someone believe in a particular religion. That defeats the purpose of a religion. If so, then why, please tell me why, does that man have to sue the couple?
Stepping back, why do Muslims round the world have to get so roused up every time someone criticises them or draws some picture? What does it say? Why preach tolerance when they're being so intolerance? Or is it "Tolerate our intolerance"?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Pray enlighten me. I dont have ESP.
I dont hate Islam or Muslims. Never have. But when legal cases like this happens. When a couple gets sued for distributing anti-Islam tracts, it just speaks for society. If the person reading is so offended, just throw the fucking piece of paper away. Why does he have to bring it to court and ruin the life of that couple?
It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper. The only thing it shows is that, that Muslim is so insecure over his faith and his God that he has to defend it by himself and by temporal means.
Its naturally for someone from a religion to think that he's is the one true religion. If not, why should someone believe in a particular religion. That defeats the purpose of a religion. If so, then why, please tell me why, does that man have to sue the couple?
Stepping back, why do Muslims round the world have to get so roused up every time someone criticises them or draws some picture? What does it say? Why preach tolerance when they're being so intolerance? Or is it "Tolerate our intolerance"?
Since you only joined last month and have never seen the same debate over and over again, I'll will enlighten you just this one time... You ask the same question again, I'll suggest you'll be banned...
(1) Singapore have this thing called the sedition act Chapter 290... Look it up... It protects all religion from lies, not only to muslims... and if you ever seen the publication, you'll know what a big lie it was...
(2) "It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper"... this sentence shows you need some growing up to do since you have never seen defemation in action before...
(3) How the fuck show I know what the so called muslims 30,000++ km away are thinking??? Can you explain to me what the Christian KKK are thinking when they kill black people?
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
Since you only joined last month and have never seen the same debate over and over again, I'll will enlighten you just this one time... You ask the same question again, I'll suggest you'll be banned...
(1) Singapore have this thing called the sedition act Chapter 290... Look it up... It protects all religion from lies, not only to muslims... and if you ever seen the publication, you'll know what a big lie it was...
(2) "It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper"... this sentence shows you need some growing up to do since you have never seen defemation in action before...
(3) How the fuck show I know what the so called muslims 30,000++ km away are thinking??? Can you explain to me what the Christian KKK are thinking when they kill black people?
What is written in paper in hard to put into practice.
Live and let live. There will always be ignorance in this world, afterall, most people have sheltered lives.
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
Since you only joined last month and have never seen the same debate over and over again, I'll will enlighten you just this one time... You ask the same question again, I'll suggest you'll be banned...
(1) Singapore have this thing called the sedition act Chapter 290... Look it up... It protects all religion from lies, not only to muslims... and if you ever seen the publication, you'll know what a big lie it was...
(2) "It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper"... this sentence shows you need some growing up to do since you have never seen defemation in action before...
(3) How the fuck show I know what the so called muslims 30,000++ km away are thinking??? Can you explain to me what the Christian KKK are thinking when they kill black people?
Right, its law. I'm not disputing that. I'm also not going to argue about Muslim beliefs (whether its the 72 virgins myth or not). If you mean "grow up" to learn that pieces of papers are more important than human lives, then I prefer to stay a 'child' (or so you imply). It simple makes one no better than LKY using libel suits to silence opposition. The sentence "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" is thrown around so much, yet never practiced much. Now lets not base this on the LKY context when political power is at stake. In this context, when a Muslim sues a couple (incurring tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees as well as stress, ruining their lives), it is because he feels offended by Jack Chick's (who heads that publication) opinion. If its just that, an opinion, and if that Muslim really feels that his religion is the one true religion, what impact does that piece of paper make?
Christian KKK? Christianity 101: Love thy neighbour as thyself. If I dont expect people to sue me over a piece of paper, I dont do it to other people. If I expect people not to riot over some pictures I draw, I dont do it myself. Hitler professed to be christian, yet gassed 6 million jews. Do you think he was really christian? Anyway, Hitler and the KKK are in the same boat. Both professing to be the master race. An ideology that stems from darwinism and has roots in the occult. After all, the full title to the Origin of Species is "The Preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life". Dont try to lump them under christianity.
I understand Muslims in SG are educated and open-minded. So I assume you disapprove of the violent reaction to Van Gogh's Submission (do you deny the portrayal of women in there?) or to the danish cartoons? Well, in SG's context, the fundamental reaction is still the same. Someone criticised us, they will pay. Am I not right?
Why does Islam come under fire? Well, its not simply a religion. Its an entire way of life (based on 7th Century Arabia). Do you deny that? And of course, some fundamentalist practices have been abandoned to be practical in modern society, but not all. If its simply a personal thing, a matter of personal faith, then it wouldnt pose a problem. Why do people associate Muslim with Malay in SG? Can you respond to this?
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
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Live and let live. There will always be ignorance in this world, afterall, most people have sheltered lives.
Live and let live...
The same thing applies. You're offended by some pieces of paper...its just paper anyway, so live and let live. No point fucking up peoples' lives because of bruised religious pride. Or is there?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Right, its law. I'm not disputing that. I'm also not going to argue about Muslim beliefs (whether its the 72 virgins myth or not). If you mean "grow up" to learn that pieces of papers are more important than human lives, then I prefer to stay a 'child' (or so you imply). It simple makes one no better than LKY using libel suits to silence opposition. The sentence "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" is thrown around so much, yet never practiced much. Now lets not base this on the LKY context when political power is at stake. In this context, when a Muslim sues a couple (incurring tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees as well as stress, ruining their lives), it is because he feels offended by Jack Chick's (who heads that publication) opinion. If its just that, an opinion, and if that Muslim really feels that his religion is the one true religion, what impact does that piece of paper make?
Christian KKK? Christianity 101: Love thy neighbour as thyself. If I dont expect people to sue me over a piece of paper, I dont do it to other people. If I expect people not to riot over some pictures I draw, I dont do it myself. Hitler professed to be christian, yet gassed 6 million jews. Do you think he was really christian? Anyway, Hitler and the KKK are in the same boat. Both professing to be the master race. An ideology that stems from darwinism and has roots in the occult. After all, the full title to the Origin of Species is "The Preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life". Dont try to lump them under christianity.
I understand Muslims in SG are educated and open-minded. So I assume you disapprove of the violent reaction to Van Gogh's Submission (do you deny the portrayal of women in there?) or to the danish cartoons? Well, in SG's context, the fundamental reaction is still the same. Someone criticised us, they will pay. Am I not right?
Why does Islam come under fire? Well, its not simply a religion. Its an entire way of life (based on 7th Century Arabia). Do you deny that? And of course, some fundamentalist practices have been abandoned to be practical in modern society, but not all. If its simply a personal thing, a matter of personal faith, then it wouldnt pose a problem. Why do people associate Muslim with Malay in SG? Can you respond to this?
Ok. Christianity isn't terrorism. Telling people they believe in devils isn't really an act that causes knee jerk reactions. Educating other people's child to tell their parents that they are worshipping devils is acceptable.
Ya. Ya. Ok. That is not wrong. I have many people telling me my father is a devil worshipper. No I am not a Muslim. I don't read the Koran and I don't really need so many morons telling me my dad is doing evil things.
Maybe I should stab my father with a big bad knife and let the old man die so that there is one less devil worshipper.
BTW I haven't got any Muslim or friends into Islam telling me my dad is a devil worshipper.
Hmmm...
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Right, its law. I'm not disputing that. I'm also not going to argue about Muslim beliefs (whether its the 72 virgins myth or not). If you mean "grow up" to learn that pieces of papers are more important than human lives, then I prefer to stay a 'child' (or so you imply). It simple makes one no better than LKY using libel suits to silence opposition. The sentence "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion" is thrown around so much, yet never practiced much. Now lets not base this on the LKY context when political power is at stake. In this context, when a Muslim sues a couple (incurring tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees as well as stress, ruining their lives), it is because he feels offended by Jack Chick's (who heads that publication) opinion. If its just that, an opinion, and if that Muslim really feels that his religion is the one true religion, what impact does that piece of paper make?
Christian KKK? Christianity 101: Love thy neighbour as thyself. If I dont expect people to sue me over a piece of paper, I dont do it to other people. If I expect people not to riot over some pictures I draw, I dont do it myself. Hitler professed to be christian, yet gassed 6 million jews. Do you think he was really christian? Anyway, Hitler and the KKK are in the same boat. Both professing to be the master race. An ideology that stems from darwinism and has roots in the occult. After all, the full title to the Origin of Species is "The Preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life". Dont try to lump them under christianity.
I understand Muslims in SG are educated and open-minded. So I assume you disapprove of the violent reaction to Van Gogh's Submission (do you deny the portrayal of women in there?) or to the danish cartoons? Well, in SG's context, the fundamental reaction is still the same. Someone criticised us, they will pay. Am I not right?
Why does Islam come under fire? Well, its not simply a religion. Its an entire way of life (based on 7th Century Arabia). Do you deny that? And of course, some fundamentalist practices have been abandoned to be practical in modern society, but not all. If its simply a personal thing, a matter of personal faith, then it wouldnt pose a problem. Why do people associate Muslim with Malay in SG? Can you respond to this?
(1) Then go ahead and remain as a child... In the adult world, you words holds value and you are accountable for them... you lie, you must taken to task for spreading those lies... and by words, it means written words too...
(2) Good, now replace Christianity with muslims and replace KKK with Al_quedah...
(3) LOL... that's why I tell people, if you want to learn about Islam, learn from proper sources, the local mosque or a proper teacher... not youtube or some fuddy duddy anti-islam mongering website...
(4) Simple... Most muslims are Malay... what more do you want? There are a minority of Malay that are Jewish so what is your point?
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the qsn to be asked.. is it JUST "some pieces of paper"?
what if it ain't about religion? what if it's about your family? well, it's just a few pieces of paper...
tolerance is not to be taken for granted.. there is a certain limit of tolerance where humans can live and let live.. the issue does not concern you in any way, of course you can say it like that.. that's humans.. its always like that.. the third party never really understand..
my friends make fun of me all the time.. make fun of the halal practice.. its ok to a certain extent.. I dont bring them to court or anything.. thats tolerance.. you breach the threshold, you answer for it.. freedom of speech is a concept that doesn't really exist.. its impossible to exist because eventually, there is a limit of tolerance..
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
Since you only joined last month and have never seen the same debate over and over again, I'll will enlighten you just this one time... You ask the same question again, I'll suggest you'll be banned...
(1) Singapore have this thing called the sedition act Chapter 290... Look it up... It protects all religion from lies, not only to muslims... and if you ever seen the publication, you'll know what a big lie it was...
(2) "It doesnt make any sense to sue someone over a piece of paper"... this sentence shows you need some growing up to do since you have never seen defemation in action before...
(3) How the fuck show I know what the so called muslims 30,000++ km away are thinking??? Can you explain to me what the Christian KKK are thinking when they kill black people?
Hey, have to prove in court that the couple are distributing lies.
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I'm not comparing religions. Thats a personal affair and should stay that way.
Who is threatening to kill you if you dont want to believe it? If you want to kill anyone or sue anyone for saying what offends you, go ahead. You're not the first (fuck to do that).
In the end, its all words right?
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Originally posted by googoomuck:
Hey, have to prove in court that the couple are distributing lies.
Well, its not exactly convenient to detail the prophet's life in 7th Century Arabia (if you get what I mean....). -
Originally posted by MohamedF:
(1) Then go ahead and remain as a child... In the adult world, you words holds value and you are accountable for them... you lie, you must taken to task for spreading those lies... and by words, it means written words too...
(2) Good, now replace Christianity with muslims and replace KKK with Al_quedah...
(3) LOL... that's why I tell people, if you want to learn about Islam, learn from proper sources, the local mosque or a proper teacher... not youtube or some fuddy duddy anti-islam mongering website...
(4) Simple... Most muslims are Malay... what more do you want? There are a minority of Malay that are Jewish so what is your point?
Really? Adults are accountable for their words? Who is holding Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfield and Gonzales for lying about WMDs, 9/11 and torture? I guess the truth doesnt matter here. What matters is who has the gun. Or in this case, who has the ability to run amock and unleash chaos.
I dont know what you mean. My response was meant to show that the KKK aren't christian, in the true sense of the word.
So I want to learn about Islam from a proper source. How does Saudi Arabia sound? Being the birthplace of Islam.
My point is that Islam is an entire way of life, not simply a personal affair. For most Muslims, leaving the faith and becoming an "infidel" could result in being disowned or even killed (in places like Saudi Arabia). Same thing with Sharia, its a religious-political-social system.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Live and let live...
The same thing applies. You're offended by some pieces of paper...its just paper anyway, so live and let live. No point fucking up peoples' lives because of bruised religious pride. Or is there?
Well, if it is propaganda distributed to sources that may inevidently affect lives deeply then we have to make appropriate measures to restrain these actions.
However, justice meted out in the form of punishment is no justice just because an action is wrong. No form of punishment is adequate or appropriate regardless of the effectiveness a punishment is.
Thus, it is outrageous to contemplate punishments against actions since we are of the conscious mind to decide in our lives the rights and the wrongs.
It is only appropriate when we refrain, restrain and educate but such measures are only taken when the other party is of agreeing terms to be taught about acceptable behavior.
There is no way to limit damage or substantiate punishments. It is just a method to bully judgement onto another bully.Inflicting one's sense of justice and causing damage doesn't make you a better person. It only reflects the level of acceptance you are capable of.
Anyway, as I always put it, the judge of a man is the man himself. You decide your actions.
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
Well, if it is propaganda distributed to sources that may inevidently affect lives deeply then we have to make appropriate measures to restrain these actions.
However, justice meted out in the form of punishment is no justice just because an action is wrong. No form of punishment is adequate or appropriate regardless of the effectiveness a punishment is.
Thus, it is outrageous to contemplate punishments against actions since we are of the conscious mind to decide in our lives the rights and the wrongs.
It is only appropriate when we refrain, restrain and educate but such measures are only taken when the other party is of agreeing terms to be taught about acceptable behavior.
There is no way to limit damage or substantiate punishments. It is just a method to bully judgement onto another bully.Inflicting one's sense of justice and causing damage doesn't make you a better person. It only reflects the level of acceptance you are capable of.
Anyway, as I always put it, the judge of a man is the man himself. You decide your actions.
So how would that tract "affect lives deeply"? To the man that received it, would it cause him to question his faith, maybe renouncing it and starting a new chapter with another religion? If he couldnt sue the couple, would he have gone on a rampage together with like-minded people?
Anyway, just to clarify. I assume your use of "propaganda" refers to an organised effort to promote a particular belief. Its technical. These days, "propaganda" refers to lies and deceit even if its subsconscious.
Has that couple demonstrated any malice? Malice that would make any apologies impotent?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Really? Adults are accountable for their words? Who is holding Bush, Cheney, Powell, Rumsfield and Gonzales for lying about WMDs, 9/11 and torture? I guess the truth doesnt matter here. What matters is who has the gun. Or in this case, who has the ability to run amock and unleash chaos.
I dont know what you mean. My response was meant to show that the KKK aren't christian, in the true sense of the word.
So I want to learn about Islam from a proper source. How does Saudi Arabia sound? Being the birthplace of Islam.
My point is that Islam is an entire way of life, not simply a personal affair. For most Muslims, leaving the faith and becoming an "infidel" could result in being disowned or even killed (in places like Saudi Arabia). Same thing with Sharia, its a religious-political-social system.
(1) Glad to know got people who thinks so.... so now lets find someone who wants to start the ball rolling and file a suit against Bush...
(2) Wah... you really mangkok... so obvious also don't know... it means the terrorist are not muslims... you say KKK are not christian but they claim to be christian... same thing...
(3) Saudi Arabia is a good place... make sure you go and learn from the mosque there that have nothing to do with Saudi Arabia culture...
(4) Infidel should be killed... oh I am sick and tired of having to repeat this over and over and over and over and over again... 1. who are infidels? Many people think it means non-muslims but it actually means ENEMY OF ISLAM i.e. people who are going out killing Islam and muslims... 2. Verses from the quran state, Allah hate those who uses excessive force... Is it my fault got mangkoks who misread the quran and made it into a law?
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Now if you excuse me, I have to sleep before night patrol... any other question I'll answer when I'm free... I will not entertain repeated question...
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Actually i think it was a good move, i like it.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
So how would that tract "affect lives deeply"? To the man that received it, would it cause him to question his faith, maybe renouncing it and starting a new chapter with another religion? If he couldnt sue the couple, would he have gone on a rampage together with like-minded people?
Anyway, just to clarify. I assume your use of "propaganda" refers to an organised effort to promote a particular belief. Its technical. These days, "propaganda" refers to lies and deceit even if its subsconscious.
Has that couple demonstrated any malice? Malice that would make any apologies impotent?
Depending on the individual recipient of the objective article and their thoughts during the receiving end, the question which imposes itself is how offensive is the article. I can't possibly anticipate any outcomes.
I won't comment on malice, as I am not on the receiving party of the offense. However, I am of the idea that they do not attempt to show any degree of apologies in defence since they should know what they are distributing (at least their professions speaks volumes)
Like I said, live and let live.
There is no reason to highlight the incident exponentially. It will only bring unnecessary attention and incite more stronger sentiments against each other.
I am of the same idea with the threadstarter to let the information be left out of jurisdication. There will always be people who will perpetuate the incident and use it for their benefits.
I believe you are sharp enough to see that.
I rest my case here.
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
(1) Glad to know got people who thinks so.... so now lets find someone who wants to start the ball rolling and file a suit against Bush...
(2) Wah... you really mangkok... so obvious also don't know... it means the terrorist are not muslims... you say KKK are not christian but they claim to be christian... same thing...
(3) Saudi Arabia is a good place... make sure you go and learn from the mosque there that have nothing to do with Saudi Arabia culture...
(4) Infidel should be killed... oh I am sick and tired of having to repeat this over and over and over and over and over again... 1. who are infidels? Many people think it means non-muslims but it actually means ENEMY OF ISLAM i.e. people who are going out killing Islam and muslims... 2. Verses from the quran state, Allah hate those who uses excessive force... Is it my fault got mangkoks who misread the quran and made it into a law?
Referring to point 3, SA preaches Wahhabism, a fanatical and aggressive form of Islam. A very good place to learn about Islam
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
(1) Glad to know got people who thinks so.... so now lets find someone who wants to start the ball rolling and file a suit against Bush...
(2) Wah... you really mangkok... so obvious also don't know... it means the terrorist are not muslims... you say KKK are not christian but they claim to be christian... same thing...
(3) Saudi Arabia is a good place... make sure you go and learn from the mosque there that have nothing to do with Saudi Arabia culture...
(4) Infidel should be killed... oh I am sick and tired of having to repeat this over and over and over and over and over again... 1. who are infidels? Many people think it means non-muslims but it actually means ENEMY OF ISLAM i.e. people who are going out killing Islam and muslims... 2. Verses from the quran state, Allah hate those who uses excessive force... Is it my fault got mangkoks who misread the quran and made it into a law?
Referring to point 4, what difference does it make?
A kafir(Arabic word for Infidel) is a non-Muslim.
A kafir is an enemy of Allah because he commits a sin of denying Mohammad is the messanger of Allah.
It's a misconception that non-Muslims are not infidels. Both are the same thing - enemies of Islam.
The mention of kafirs in hadiths is negative and full of hate.
It's said that Islam's doctrine can compact a thousand pages into one word - Kafir