Religious issues - Better to settle out of Court?
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Pl exercise your extreme care in this case,especially the trial is still on.
This is a religious issue about insulting other religion.
Did the couple target Muslims with the intentions to convert them?
I dunt know.
MDA is blocking the sites of Chick Productions,The Little Bride etc.
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One thing is sure they sent the offensive booklets to Muslim.
How did they get the names and address?
How many have they sent?Pl note they had 439 copies of 11 tracts
in possession( in their home).
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AG personal approval is needed to prosecute under this charge.
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Leaders of Church and MUIS shall make a statement.
Chick tracts are a waste of earth's natural resources.
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FC, cut that confrontationist stand please.
Do you know that i can just walk up a bookstore, purchase a Koran and then go to the police and lodge a sedition report?
Inside contains passages after passages of accusation that I, a non-believer, is an infidel, and calling for my and others' destruction. Isn't it seditious enough? More so when Fundamentalism - going by the hoy book - an 'in' thing now?
The only reason i don't do such thing is not because of authoritative laws, but because i grew up in Singapore amongst muslims, had them as friends and even collegues, and they had shown no inclination of following such doctrines.
I trust them explicity, and accept their condemnation of terrorists attacks in good faith. These muslims are my people - Singaporeans.
We here should be glad a muslim is taking part in this discussion, equally on a non-confrontational basis, to challenge held assumptions.
These moderates are intelligent people, of javanese heritage and not from the arabian penninsula. They too know it would be strange to revert back to fundamentalism, back to the deserts where Islam was born.
We are no longer living in the desert under imperialism of despotic and cruel Roman governors, but in a era and scientific evolutionary change, and would need to stay relevant.
After 911. muslims had acknowledged that there was 'misinterpretations' in their holy book by even arab moslems. This is a common ground of which we can all accept and agree upon, and work upon it.
Only thing was, it seem this 'misinterpretations' were NOT corrected, for innocents still continued to die hearing screams of a deity being proclaim great. It seem instead of progressing forward, the Islamic faith had regress, back to fundamentalism.
Now that it had occured yet again, this time, lets hold the muslim to their acknowledgement. Let us hear from the moderates, in fairness, from both sides, what misconceptions they had with non-muslims. what are their difficulties they faced, what kind of support they need - funds or volunteers to reach out to undevelope nations and the poor uneducated.
The moderates are our only hope. Lets us for once effect real change through dialogue, and not hide behind so called 'taboos' and leave it for the next generation to sort out the mess that we are responsible for.
Let's be open and rational, instead of confrontational, to find solutions so that more innocents need not die
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Good, I'm glad you plan to be open and rational instead of confrontational and not sueing someone because you are offended over pieces of paper they distribute.
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Originally posted by MohamedF:
(1) Glad to know got people who thinks so.... so now lets find someone who wants to start the ball rolling and file a suit against Bush...
(2) Wah... you really mangkok... so obvious also don't know... it means the terrorist are not muslims... you say KKK are not christian but they claim to be christian... same thing...
(3) Saudi Arabia is a good place... make sure you go and learn from the mosque there that have nothing to do with Saudi Arabia culture...
(4) Infidel should be killed... oh I am sick and tired of having to repeat this over and over and over and over and over again... 1. who are infidels? Many people think it means non-muslims but it actually means ENEMY OF ISLAM i.e. people who are going out killing Islam and muslims... 2. Verses from the quran state, Allah hate those who uses excessive force... Is it my fault got mangkoks who misread the quran and made it into a law?
Dont change the subject. So do adults necessarily take responsibilities for their words? Well, depends who the hell they are.No one said that Muslims were terrorists. This thread was not over whether terrorists are Muslims or vice versa. I wonder why you said that...
And what is Saudi culture? Is Saudi culture stoning women? Or is that merely Sharia in action?
I thought enemies of Allah and non-believers were same. Well googoomuck addressed that for me.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
And what is Saudi culture? Is Saudi culture stoning women? Or is that merely Sharia in action?I thought enemies of Allah and non-believers were same. Well googoomuck addressed that for me.
Kafir technically applies only to atheists and polytheists and to those who subscribe to faiths other than Christianity, Judaism and Zorastrianisms.
The funny thing is that athough stoning has a long history in a number of different traditions (including Jewish and Greek histories) the practice has since grown to be associated with Islam and Muslim cultures.
In fact, there is no mention of stoning in the Quran, and the practice is only implied in the Hadith in the context of the Prophet Muhammad’s dealings with Jewish Law.
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Polytheists are mushrikeen. The people of the book(Jews and Christians) and atheists are kuffar(plural of kafir).
Royfang need to consult Sheikh Muhammad Al-Mukhtar Al-Shinqiti.
Born 04/12/1966 in Islamic Republic of Mauritania
Education
1973-1983: Earned an Ijazah (certificate) of memorization of the Holy Qur’an.
1985-1989: Earned a Bachelors Degree in Islamic Jurisprudence.
1988-1994: Earned a Bachelors Degree in Translation (Arabic – French – English). -
Originally posted by googoomuck:
Polytheists are mushrikeen. The people of the book(Jews and Christians) and atheists are kuffar(plural of kafir).
Okay, you got me on that. There are different interpretions on the word "Kafir" and mine is one of them.
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Assalam mua lai kum
thats what we really need here.
for the record, i m Christian but i personally feel that what these two chrisitans have done is overboard. Yes, evangelicalizing is always a good thing, but unsolicited evangelicalizing is against the law.
If someone expresses interest / is willing to listen to what you have to say about Jesus, then its alright to prostelyize to them.
If someone is not interested/dosent show interest, please respect the person's privacy and right to self-determination.
therein lies the crux of the issue. By sending evangelical "spam", no one is interested. to charge them with sedition, that is really a matter of interpretation. dont think we should go there.
i bet we'd see a media blackout of this case. race and religion very touchy topics still today. cant have an open constructive discussion.
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Originally posted by Nelstar:
Ok. Christianity isn't terrorism. Telling people they believe in devils isn't really an act that causes knee jerk reactions. Educating other people's child to tell their parents that they are worshipping devils is acceptable.
Ya. Ya. Ok. That is not wrong. I have many people telling me my father is a devil worshipper. No I am not a Muslim. I don't read the Koran and I don't really need so many morons telling me my dad is doing evil things.
Maybe I should stab my father with a big bad knife and let the old man die so that there is one less devil worshipper.
BTW I haven't got any Muslim or friends into Islam telling me my dad is a devil worshipper.
Hmmm...
i was thinking the same thing, i've even heard of a colleague trying to bind a temple or something like that when she went past one in a taxi.while i understand its different for islam even just across the causeway, its here that matters. at least with muslims here they talk about their religion only if we want to talk about it. some christians think they're trying to save us from fire and brimestone all the time.
while faith doesn't allow them to accept beliefs that are different, i certainly don't think the bible teaches anyone to be obnoxious. there's no need to be rude if people don't share your faith.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
FC, cut that confrontationist stand please.
Do you know that i can just walk up a bookstore, purchase a Koran and then go to the police and lodge a sedition report?
Inside contains passages after passages of accusation that I, a non-believer, is an infidel, and calling for my and others' destruction. Isn't it seditious enough? More so when Fundamentalism - going by the hoy book - an 'in' thing now?
The only reason i don't do such thing is not because of authoritative laws, but because i grew up in Singapore amongst muslims, had them as friends and even collegues, and they had shown no inclination of following such doctrines.
I trust them explicity, and accept their condemnation of terrorists attacks in good faith. These muslims are my people - Singaporeans.
We here should be glad a muslim is taking part in this discussion, equally on a non-confrontational basis, to challenge held assumptions.
These moderates are intelligent people, of javanese heritage and not from the arabian penninsula. They too know it would be strange to revert back to fundamentalism, back to the deserts where Islam was born.
We are no longer living in the desert under imperialism of despotic and cruel Roman governors, but in a era and scientific evolutionary change, and would need to stay relevant.
After 911. muslims had acknowledged that there was 'misinterpretations' in their holy book by even arab moslems. This is a common ground of which we can all accept and agree upon, and work upon it.
Only thing was, it seem this 'misinterpretations' were NOT corrected, for innocents still continued to die hearing screams of a deity being proclaim great. It seem instead of progressing forward, the Islamic faith had regress, back to fundamentalism.
Now that it had occured yet again, this time, lets hold the muslim to their acknowledgement. Let us hear from the moderates, in fairness, from both sides, what misconceptions they had with non-muslims. what are their difficulties they faced, what kind of support they need - funds or volunteers to reach out to undevelope nations and the poor uneducated.
The moderates are our only hope. Lets us for once effect real change through dialogue, and not hide behind so called 'taboos' and leave it for the next generation to sort out the mess that we are responsible for.
Let's be open and rational, instead of confrontational, to find solutions so that more innocents need not die
Well said.
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Originally posted by sgstars:
Assalam mua lai kum
thats what we really need here.
for the record, i m Christian but i personally feel that what these two chrisitans have done is overboard. Yes, evangelicalizing is always a good thing, but unsolicited evangelicalizing is against the law.
If someone expresses interest / is willing to listen to what you have to say about Jesus, then its alright to prostelyize to them.
If someone is not interested/dosent show interest, please respect the person's privacy and right to self-determination.
therein lies the crux of the issue. By sending evangelical "spam", no one is interested. to charge them with sedition, that is really a matter of interpretation. dont think we should go there.
i bet we'd see a media blackout of this case. race and religion very touchy topics still today. cant have an open constructive discussion.
Heck, as a Christian, I view persistent evangelism as somewhat irritating. It's like spam.I'm of the belief that if you want to convert someone, just live your life as an example to God and religion.
There are ways to spread the good news without denigrating and insulting other religions. That is a highly negative practice. You're supposed to share your religion to others, why would anyone want to hear a diatribe on the supposed "evils" of other religions?
Focus, tact and ethics. That's what's lacking. There's simply no point pushing things in people's faces, God gave all of us free will.
Spam is spam. No one wants it.
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Good lord, this should be in religion forums, how come it is here leh???
Anyway, believing is a strong emotion, people can hardly change one believe. And believers are protective of what they believed, that is understandable. Just respect each others believes and we shall be harmony. Here in Singapore, we have been enjoying this harmony due to our respect of each other opinons and believes. Let us enjoy more years to come, for God may gives us free wills to roam this world, and if u are a believer, u should know that God also created hell for those who misused the free wills.
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Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Heck, as a Christian, I view persistent evangelism as somewhat irritating. It's like spam.I'm of the belief that if you want to convert someone, just live your life as an example to God and religion.
There are ways to spread the good news without denigrating and insulting other religions. That is a highly negative practice. You're supposed to share your religion to others, why would anyone want to hear a diatribe on the supposed "evils" of other religions?
Focus, tact and ethics. That's what's lacking. There's simply no point pushing things in people's faces, God gave all of us free will.
Spam is spam. No one wants it.
fully agree with that. the tracts and the door-to-door visit is a waste of time.actually one time, one pastor came to my door and insulted another denomination....
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Originally posted by Dr Who:
Some issues like the one below should be settled by arbitration rather than in court....
Why? Care to give your reasons?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
FC, cut that confrontationist stand please.
Do you know that i can just walk up a bookstore, purchase a Koran and then go to the police and lodge a sedition report?
Inside contains passages after passages of accusation that I, a non-believer, is an infidel, and calling for my and others' destruction. Isn't it seditious enough? More so when Fundamentalism - going by the hoy book - an 'in' thing now?
The only reason i don't do such thing is not because of authoritative laws, but because i grew up in Singapore amongst muslims, had them as friends and even collegues, and they had shown no inclination of following such doctrines.
I trust them explicity, and accept their condemnation of terrorists attacks in good faith. These muslims are my people - Singaporeans.
We here should be glad a muslim is taking part in this discussion, equally on a non-confrontational basis, to challenge held assumptions.
These moderates are intelligent people, of javanese heritage and not from the arabian penninsula. They too know it would be strange to revert back to fundamentalism, back to the deserts where Islam was born.
We are no longer living in the desert under imperialism of despotic and cruel Roman governors, but in a era and scientific evolutionary change, and would need to stay relevant.
After 911. muslims had acknowledged that there was 'misinterpretations' in their holy book by even arab moslems. This is a common ground of which we can all accept and agree upon, and work upon it.
Only thing was, it seem this 'misinterpretations' were NOT corrected, for innocents still continued to die hearing screams of a deity being proclaim great. It seem instead of progressing forward, the Islamic faith had regress, back to fundamentalism.
Now that it had occured yet again, this time, lets hold the muslim to their acknowledgement. Let us hear from the moderates, in fairness, from both sides, what misconceptions they had with non-muslims. what are their difficulties they faced, what kind of support they need - funds or volunteers to reach out to undevelope nations and the poor uneducated.
The moderates are our only hope. Lets us for once effect real change through dialogue, and not hide behind so called 'taboos' and leave it for the next generation to sort out the mess that we are responsible for.
Let's be open and rational, instead of confrontational, to find solutions so that more innocents need not die
Do you really understand what this thread is about? Its about a couple being sued because they distributed christian tracts aimed at converting Muslims. I'm notaccusing anyone of being a terrorist etc. I'm not bashing Islam or Muslims.I'm not for arguing about religion (that goes for you and MohammadF), I'm just saying that is is ridiculous and inhumane to screw up that couples' lifes, their livelihood and their daughter's life over a few pieces of paper that "offended" someone. Thats just a sign of supreme arrogance of religion, in this supposed age of modernity, and proves that the "live and let live" principle is just lip-service.
@MohammadF: Sure we can look at Islam and not at Muslims. But aren't Muslims supposed to be an example for Islam? If not, what is the point of being a Muslim if you cannot even uphold the tenets of Islam? I'm curious, does Islam command Muslims to hound (and screw up the lifes of) those who challenges Islamic authority, or does it advocate a "live and let live" mentality?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Do you really understand what this thread is about? Its about a couple being sued because they distributed christian tracts aimed at converting Muslims. I'm notaccusing anyone of being a terrorist etc. I'm not bashing Islam or Muslims.I'm not for arguing about religion (that goes for you and MohammadF), I'm just saying that is is ridiculous and inhumane to screw up that couples' lifes, their livelihood and their daughter's life over a few pieces of paper that "offended" someone. Thats just a sign of supreme arrogance of religion, in this supposed age of modernity, and proves that the "live and let live" principle is just lip-service.
If a Muslim was to distributed Muslim tracts aimed at converting Christians, and that person went on trial for sedition I'm sure you will not be saying about it, nor saying that it's a sign of supreme arrogance of christianity.
I dislike people who goes around acting like their religion is superior to others regardless whether he/she is Muslim/Christian/Hindu etc. like this case. Singapore has to mantain religious harmony among its population and it's idiots like the couple who threatened to break this fragile harmony.
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Who was forcing anyone to convert? Did the couple take a whip to that Muslim and force him to believe what they stated, showing their presumed superiority?
If Muslims distribute anti-Christian tracts, I'm sure there wont be any riots or flag burnings. Do you believe everything you read about? Are you forced to or do you have a choice?
Making a big fuss over this shows the arrogance of that Muslim, that no one has the right to show him anything that makes him uncomfortable. And just because he feels "offended", he messes up the life of that couple. Is that arrogance or humility?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Who was forcing anyone to convert? Did the couple take a whip to that Muslim and force him to believe what they stated, showing their presumed superiority?
If Muslims distribute anti-Christian tracts, I'm sure there wont be any riots or flag burnings. Do you believe everything you read about? Are you forced to or do you have a choice?
Making a big fuss over this shows the arrogance of that Muslim, that no one has the right to show him anything that makes him uncomfortable. And just because he feels "offended", he messes up the life of that couple. Is that arrogance or humility?
Is using force the only way to show superiority?I'm not talking about riots or flag burning, but rather bringing the person to court.
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So you bring someone to court if they offend you?
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
So you bring someone to court if they offend you?
If he/she insults me by posting insulting notes directing at me on public walls, why not? -
As if it changes anything.
Thats the kind of attitude that breeds aggression in our society.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
As if it changes anything.
Thats the kind of attitude that breeds aggression in our society.
Tell me, how does it breed aggression in our society. -
Re-quote from my essay
Side tracking a bit, I’m here to answer a certain someone on why must make this into a court battle? If someone is spreading lies, just let them be coz its up to the listener to chose whether he wants to listen to the lie or not.
Clearly, this person does not fully understand the concept of defamation and libel. Lets imagine for a while, someone who don’t like you (person A) decided to take a picture of your sister or mother and say that she is a prostitute, write her number and home address on the picture and start distributing it on the streets.
According to this certain someone, person A should be left alone and let him continue the lie, its up to the listener to judge whether the lie is true or not. To a person with a little more knowledge, this is a flawed concept.
By letting Person A continue the lie, your sister or mother public status or credibility will be severely affected. They will be constantly disturbed by perverts and will forever be ashamed as long as the lie continues.
This certain someone continues with, “If that is the case, then the lie should be fought with the truth. Tell everyone he is lying and no one will believe him.”
In a classroom, this is possible. But this is the entire of Singapore we’re talking about. How are you going to find out whom Person A had lied to and correct the lie? The truth is, it is very hard to do so. But one thing can be done, cut out the source of the lie. Put a tape on his mouth and the lie will, hopefully, cease to exist.
Like I’ve said before, a man’s words holds value and he should be held responsible for it. It just depends on how far a person is willing to go to uphold the truth. Some people chose to do nothing and the liar will go free, others chose to do something. Tell a teacher, supervisor or a judge depending on the nature of the lie.
It is a duty of a muslim to defend Islam. If someone lies about Islam, a muslim can do one of two things. (1) Correct the lies by going around and tell everyone the truth or (2) put a masking tape on the liar.
Information or misinformation is a powerful thing. It can put an inocent in jail or let a murder go free. It can create peace or start wars. That is the power of information.
That is the purpose of the defamation act and the sedition act. To stop the spread of misinformation. Think about it. This couple is not only spreading lies, but what else can that lie cause? Hate towards muslim? What can happen when hate builds up? A dispute? A fight? A riot? All because of misinformation.
Misinformation caused the Iraq war. That is how powerful misinformation is.
And also remember, the couple did not only offend a person or two. He offended an entire community of Singapore. That is 15%+/- the population of Singapore. And offended more people who believe that religious harmony in Singapore is a sacred thing and is one of the glue that hold a multi-racial and religious Singapore together.
Let this couple be an example that Singapore don't tolerate hate speaches and misinformation. They chose to tell a lie, they shall suffer the concequesces.
Now about about "study Islam, don't study the muslim." Human are the smartest creature on the face of the planet and are also capable of the dumbest acts known to man kind. A school has its missions and values but surely got some mangkok students that never follow its values and became a disgrace to the school.
So, if you want to know about the school, where do you look at? The good student? The bad students? The teachers? The values?
SO again, if you want to study Islam, "study Islam, don't study the muslims" but if you want to study about muslims, be my guest. But remember, no two humans are alike.