Bailout payout tops $8 trillion
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I guess the banks are afraid to release more unsettling news by giving more transprancy. The money could have been used to patch a few holes that they have not shown to the public.
Its hard to believe that the the tax payer's money have been given out with such little discipline, I guess they have fumbled under pressure. I know that even in IPO , they will have to indicate how much money is going to be used and used in which area.
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Originally posted by Ice Dive:
Pardon for my ignorance , how does the finance market allocate resources better to produce goods and services ?
The finance market is essentially where credits are traded.These credits include loans.
A firm needs loans to secure the resources they need. Otherwise where do they get their $$ from? They need to start somewhere.
This is why banks exists.....and why the financial market exists. To facilitate this type of exchange, amongst other types.
The finance market is like a "middle-man" to transmit signals from the goods and services market to the guys holding the dough. That's why it can be said to be helping in the allocation of resources.
Please correct me if I am wrong...
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Originally posted by reyes:
maybe this recession is a blessing in disguise. this finally wake us up from an era of easy credit and giving too much fame and freedom to the financial market.
singapore also reconsider it own model of economy after trying so hard these years to make singapore regional financial hub.
i still strongly believe our economy should be base on R&D and manufacturing products of high value.
Actually they are doing this, by constantly putting money into the technology and creative sectors. It will be a few years before we see some real results i reckon.
And no, Zodiac and Singing to the Dawn doesn't really count.
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Originally posted by Stevenson101:
Actually they are doing this, by constantly putting money into the technology and creative sectors. It will be a few years before we see some real results i reckon.
Thought in addition we're trying to be medical hub too?
Shit....I keep thinking AMK Hub.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Again...name calling without even trying to make a sound argument. If you want to call something a "conspiracy theory", then at least have the guts to disprove it instead of running away like some spineless coward. Ironically, it is that same guts that cause you to disregard anything that you don't agree with. Use your brains for once. The fractional reserve system is no conspiracy theory. It is the monetary system that exists today.Tell me the fractional reserve system is a "conspiracy theory". Do it. Do it and show your ignorance to everyone. And while you're at it, how about you explain how money is created today.
Ron Paul might be a politician, but at least he has the courage to say what no other lying scumbag dares to.
I don't deny that all government officials are not elected. The point is whether elected officials have the independence to run the country without interference from outside influence. If the president appoints someone to run a ministry and that person hires his own employees, nothing is wrong. But if the president is given a list to choose from, from the same people that run the ministry, something is wrong right? Where is the real power? And we're talking about the central bank of the world's former superpower.
And by the way, nice try, 'guilt by association'. Probably only similarly deluded people buy it.
FC. I dont really enjoy this, debating with conspiracy theorists, for their ignorance shows and will always resort to wild tangents as replies. Even when proven wrong, they will claim 'I dont deny..blah..blah..blah.
This is a crisis now. I had already mentioned, there are flaws inherent in any man made system. The Fed had been wrong under Greenspan, and it is being righted now. It is easier to condemn using hindsight.
It is too late to play the blame game. The world needs to spend, otherwise when massive unemployment occurs, civil strife and chaos will begin, new dark age will descend. AND THAT IS ALL I AM CONCERN ABOUT!
And your arguments about fractional reserve banking is something which no mainstream economists will ever accept, even in these times because it is based on non mainstream economic theories, akin to your favourite conspiracy theories.
Only your kind that believe Elvis is alive will take that leap of faith and harp on it as a root cause for recessions. I wonder if Milton Friedman, the man famous for his 'hand of market' and taught unfetted capitalism which led to this crisis was an Elvis fan.
Thus, i will leave you to your rant against 'debt based monetary system', and i remind you, this is only M3 you are riled against. Banks still have other categories of M to fall back on. Afterall, it is your right to be ignorant and ignore the bigger picture on why the market fell - confidence.
PS: Please sue International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn for the $6000 trillion dollar error, or the reporters. I do believe global economic output is est $60 trillion (2007), still alot of money.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/21122008/325/imf-head-fears-deeper-global-slowdown.html
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Did we? Well that's news to me
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8 trillion is more than 10% of 60 trillion.
So is it big sum or not?
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Originally posted by Ice Dive:
I guess the banks are afraid to release more unsettling news by giving more transprancy. The money could have been used to patch a few holes that they have not shown to the public.
Its hard to believe that the the tax payer's money have been given out with such little discipline, I guess they have fumbled under pressure. I know that even in IPO , they will have to indicate how much money is going to be used and used in which area.
Isn't it obvious that the reason why there is no disclosure is because the money didnt go towards relieving the crisis, even if it could? -
Originally posted by freedomclub:
Isn't it obvious that the reason why there is no disclosure is because the money didnt go towards relieving the crisis, even if it could?
x2Its so ironic. Transparency is always a harped-on issue for democracy and the champions for that has such a opaque banking system!
How are we going to avoid another crisis in the future in that way?
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
8 trillion is more than 10% of 60 trillion.
So is it big sum or not?
Your are worried about $8 trillion being a 'big sum'
? Most of it which are only guarantees and not physical money? When millions of people may be out of job, homeless, and starving if nothing is done?
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
FC. I dont really enjoy this, debating with conspiracy theorists, for their ignorance shows and will always resort to wild tangents as replies. Even when proven wrong, they will claim 'I dont deny..blah..blah..blah.
This is a crisis now. I had already mentioned, there are flaws inherent in any man made system. The Fed had been wrong under Greenspan, and it is being righted now. It is easier to condemn using hindsight.
It is too late to play the blame game. The world needs to spend, otherwise when massive unemployment occurs, civil strife and chaos will begin, new dark age will descend. AND THAT IS ALL I AM CONCERN ABOUT!
And your arguments about fractional reserve banking is something which no mainstream economists will ever accept, even in these times because it is based on non mainstream economic theories, akin to your favourite conspiracy theories.
Only your kind that believe Elvis is alive will take that leap of faith and harp on it as a root cause for recessions. I wonder if Milton Friedman, the man famous for his 'hand of market' and taught unfetted capitalism which led to this crisis was an Elvis fan.
Thus, i will leave you to your rant against 'debt based monetary system', and i remind you, this is only M3 you are riled against. Banks still have other categories of M to fall back on. Afterall, it is your right to be ignorant and ignore the bigger picture on why the market fell - confidence.
PS: Please sue International Monetary Fund chief Dominique Strauss-Kahn for the $6000 trillion dollar error, or the reporters. I do believe global economic output is est $60 trillion (2007), still alot of money.
http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/21122008/325/imf-head-fears-deeper-global-slowdown.html
So even if you didnt prove anyone wrong, you just assume you're right and go on calling people names. Sounds like the scientific method to me...You know why no one wants to examine the fractional reserve system like Ron Paul has? Because the establishment relies on it for economic control over the serfs they control. Without it, they're powerless. Thats why you say its "non mainstream". Does that mean its a lie? No, it just means that no one has the guts to discuss it in public. And why? Because it threatens the status quo. Same reason why the role of western corporations isn't covered by the "mainstream". If you like believing in the MSM, you might as well go live in a fantasy.
Playing the 'guilt by association' game again aren't you? Is that the only weapon you have? Ad hominem?
And what is M3 money supply? It is the total supply of money, not just physical, but all the money that also exists in digital form. And it is that total supply which dictates the rate of inflation, or how much money is devalued. Because the more you have of something, the less value it has. Not only that, but the money is created when the Fed loans it to the US Govt. So you have a situation where this two factors work to enslave people economically. In 2006, the Fed stopped reporting M3. Why? Because since its creation, M3 has increased 1000%. If people stopped and thought about it, perhaps thats why we have inflation.
Oh...so after you posted a disclaimer saying that any mistakes are your own and professed a belief in checking your own sources over and over again, you blame that guy for slipping up, causing you to misquote? And while you're at it, you don't even want to examine what others are saying, calling them "conspiracy theorists" even though you haven't presented a shred of evidence disproving what I posted? Its clear to everyone that you are truly unique.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
So even if you didnt prove anyone wrong, you just assume you're right and go on calling people names. Sounds like the scientific method to me...You know why no one wants to examine the fractional reserve system like Ron Paul has? Because the establishment relies on it for economic control over the serfs they control. Without it, they're powerless. Thats why you say its "non mainstream". Does that mean its a lie? No, it just means that no one has the guts to discuss it in public. And why? Because it threatens the status quo. Same reason why the role of western corporations isn't covered by the "mainstream". If you like believing in the MSM, you might as well go live in a fantasy.
Playing the 'guilt by association' game again aren't you? Is that the only weapon you have? Ad hominem?
And what is M3 money supply? It is the total supply of money, not just physical, but all the money that also exists in digital form. And it is that total supply which dictates the rate of inflation, or how much money is devalued. Because the more you have of something, the less value it has. Not only that, but the money is created when the Fed loans it to the US Govt. So you have a situation where this two factors work to enslave people economically. In 2006, the Fed stopped reporting M3. Why? Because since its creation, M3 has increased 1000%. If people stopped and thought about it, perhaps thats why we have inflation.
Oh...so after you posted a disclaimer saying that any mistakes are your own and professed a belief in checking your own sources over and over again, you blame that guy for slipping up, causing you to misquote? And while you're at it, you don't even want to examine what others are saying, calling them "conspiracy theorists" even though you haven't presented a shred of evidence disproving what I posted? Its clear to everyone that you truly unique.
Have fun with your rant and may it help solve the predicament everyone is. An indulgent bit of fantasy and rage helps relieve pent up frustrations. Care to share any UFO tales instead of super secret deep cover organisations moving the world type conspiracies?
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Is there anyone out there that is willing to tell xtreyier to examine the evidence before coming to dismissive conclusions instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks?
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It's very interesting studying him actually.
Despite his hatred for terrorists, you can basically see what constitutes the psyche of a terrorist in his posts.
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Thank you stevenson. I got a feeling that you would reply.
Yeah, just like Bush who can't stand "conspiracy theories" which try to shift the blame from the real "terrorists".
While we're on the subject, you can see how the cycle of exploitation continues when we're told we need to spend more and more (creating more debt naturally) if we want to be 'saved'.
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Originally posted by freedomclub:
Is there anyone out there that is willing to tell xtreyier to examine the evidence before coming to dismissive conclusions instead of engaging in ad hominem attacks?
What evidence did you present? "Weapons? Secrets? guts to tell? Threaten status quo? M3 is ALL the money supply?!"I rather leave you and others with a bone to bite here to their delusions. Have fun.
Real men have to do real work in the real world while you and your kind indulge in fantazies. Gotta go.
Cheers!
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
What evidence did you present? "Weapons? Secrets? guts to tell? Threaten status quo? M3 is ALL the money supply?!"I rather leave you and others with a bone to bite here to their delusions. Have fun.
Cheers!
Oh..those are literary devices.As for my evidence, I've pointed out that the fractional reserve system creates money out of nothing, as debt. The central bank loans money to the US Govt at interest. Who says this doesnt create debt? And this system is controlled in the US by the privately-owned Federal Reserve.
As for the history of how the Federal Reserve was set up, including Woodrow Wilson's regret, its all on the public domain and can be easily verified even if its not accepted in the much-vaunted MSM. If that means that this is a "conspiracy theory", then so be it.
If you say M3 isn't the total supply of money in the economy, or disagree with what I say, then its only right that you present opposing evidence instead of engage in name calling. I thought that was just civilised behaviour. Stop running away when you're called out on your despicable bahaviour.
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Maybe 1 of the banks can break and trend to give full disclosure on how the money is used , in return it has more credibility in the eyes of both the congress and the people. It will definately be good for image , reputation and in return it will have a easier life line and bigger share on the "upcomings" bailout fund.
Takes a hero with the courage to try and make capabilies to not become a zero.
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Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
The finance market is essentially where credits are traded.These credits include loans.
A firm needs loans to secure the resources they need. Otherwise where do they get their $$ from? They need to start somewhere.
This is why banks exists.....and why the financial market exists. To facilitate this type of exchange, amongst other types.
The finance market is like a "middle-man" to transmit signals from the goods and services market to the guys holding the dough. That's why it can be said to be helping in the allocation of resources.
Please correct me if I am wrong...
Question : Any people who started their own business or any business CFO here ? I do personally know quite a few enterpreneur and have a few bank friends so maybe I can ask some of them when I meet up with them again but I think each will only give their part of the picture.
I agree in general on what you say but does not seem concrete enough on the take of singapore financial hub as you said earlier on.
I agree in general :
Eg . For mega projects, eg IR . I rem a few banks joint up to give credit for financing the development of the IR. And also bank lends money to each other too .
Seem weak :
There are tons of SME in sinagpore , the amount of financing that they require are hardly in the sum that what a local bank cannot supply.
Seem weak :
If we talk about mega projects , I think a lot projects are initiatied by the government.
Of cause , being initiatied does not mean they pay too as it depends on the nature of the projects (eg , DBOO , DBOT etc . )
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Actually they are doing this, by constantly putting money into the technology and creative sectors. It will be a few years before we see some real results i reckon.
And no, Zodiac and Singing to the Dawn doesn't really count.
yeah just days ago i heard we are increasing the budget. i hope most of these tax payers money are not dumping into flowing river.
i fear for these money dump into medical sector. i agree to LKY daughter arguement that we should focus on our strength and specify field instead of focusing attacking field on all field hopefully tikum one.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
...
This is a crisis now. I had already mentioned, there are flaws inherent in any man made system. The Fed had been wrong under Greenspan, and it is being righted now. It is easier to condemn using hindsight.
It is too late to play the blame game. The world needs to spend, otherwise when massive unemployment occurs, civil strife and chaos will begin, new dark age will descend. AND THAT IS ALL I AM CONCERN ABOUT!
And your arguments about fractional reserve banking is something which no mainstream economists will ever accept, even in these times because it is based on non mainstream economic theories, akin to your favourite conspiracy theories.
Only your kind that believe Elvis is alive will take that leap of faith and harp on it as a root cause for recessions. I wonder if Milton Friedman, the man famous for his 'hand of market' and taught unfetted capitalism which led to this crisis was an Elvis fan.
Thus, i will leave you to your rant against 'debt based monetary system', and i remind you, this is only M3 you are riled against. Banks still have other categories of M to fall back on. Afterall, it is your right to be ignorant and ignore the bigger picture on why the market fell - confidence.
....
It is precisely because there is a crisis that we have the opportunity to right the root of the problem, which is uncontrolled monetary creation by the privately-owned Fed. Its no use trying to implement a 'solution' when it doesnt solve the root problem right? I'm sure you agree with this. Its not something only "conspiracy theorists" believe in.
I dont see how your argument against a "debt based monetary system" and M3 is related. M3 just refers to the total supply of money in an economy. If the US government took money creation into its own hands, then money wouldnt be created as debt and we wouldnt be having this argument. But as it is, the Fed loans money to the US Govt at interest, which spends it into circulation. Can you explain how that doesn't create debt without engaging in ad hominems, if you're so sure that reality is otherwise?
Answer this: If a belief is non-mainstream, does it automatically make it a lie? Does it? But it seems that you overlook cohesive arguments when dealing with "non-mainstream" arguments and reacting in an emotional way.
You're ignoring the big picture when you take for granted the fundamentals of the financial system and instead focus on some secondary factor.
As Aldous Huxley wrote: "Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Your are worried about $8 trillion being a 'big sum'
? Most of it which are only guarantees and not physical money? When millions of people may be out of job, homeless, and starving if nothing is done?
Please answer my question....be a real man as you claim, dude! -
Originally posted by 16/f/lonely:
Please answer my question....be a real man as you claim, dude!Why not you decide? After all, this is the net, you have the freedom of choice and i will never impose my viewpoints on you, even rudely, nor have the power to do so.
To me, always. the human life is precious. 8 trillion dollars is nothing if it can be use to save lives, many lives. I dont know about you.
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Originally posted by xtreyier:
Why not you decide? After all, this is the net, you have the freedom of choice and i will never impose my viewpoints on you, even rudely, nor have the power to do so.
To me, always. the human life is precious. 8 trillion dollars is nothing if it can be use to save lives, many lives. I dont know about you.
8 trillion dollars is nothing if it can be used to save lifes.....
Typo or what???
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A man prints a 10 dollar bill on his home PC and buys a 1.50 bread. Thus he has committed the crime of counterfeiting and cheating.
The Federal reserves prints out 8 trillion in treasury bonds, use it to pay the Middle East and South America countries for their natural resources and it is regarded as saving lives.
I really like the logic here.