Does Chee Soon Juan know Singapore very well?
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Originally posted by webben:
Can you back this up with quotes?
what kind of quotes?1. that LKY is authoritarian, or
2. teraexa is agreeing with LKY, at least in this instance?
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Sorry for being ambiguous. Quotes that demonstrate Dr Chee "speak without using a brain".
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I lost faith in him aft the incident when he reacted 'Insanely' on our ex-PM Goh during the Election many yrs ago.
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I lost faith in him aft the incident when he reacted 'Insanely' on our ex-PM Goh during the Election many yrs ago.
See below film for Chee's story:
Singapore Rebel
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Originally posted by webben:
Sorry for being ambiguous. Quotes that demonstrate Dr Chee "speak without using a brain".
Speaking without a brain?
How should I say?
Personally, I feel that most of the things he is doing has not been thought through thoroughly enough, or what most of us will colloquailly term as "not using a brain".
In my personal opinion, if he bothered to think through, he will know that civil disobedience will not bring about desired tangible outcomes. Even though people may agree with what he says, they face difficulty in channelling that agreement into support for him simply because the methods in which he brought up issues are simply to antagonistic.
Getting yourself bankrupt is definitely not the best way to show political survivability when those money could have been better used to improve his party or his platforms. Instead he found himself in hot soup/lawsuits with the regime because he tends to be too honest about certain things. Regime becomes unhappy and sues him. He is ordered to pay. He becomes bankrupt. His SDP lacks funds and its reputation takes a dive with his reputation.
Now, let's chunk the issue of judicial independence/fairness aside for the moment. A skilled/shrewd politician will know when to play which cards. When the moment calls for silence, he will not utter a single comment. Civil disobedience is different from political survival. Want to see political survival? Check out how Wen Jia Bao survived the 1989 Tiananmen Incident and rose to be China's Premier today. Does Dr CSJ know when to shut up? Hardly so. If he does not know when to shut up, is he speaking with his brains then? Biologically yes, but figuratively, metaphorically, antologically and morally, he is not.
In short, he speaks without using his brains because he does not know when to speak and how to speak. You can fight for the most just cause ever but without the correct tactics or strategy, you are just sending yourself to slaughter.
Is there any wonder why Chiam See Tong left SDP when he had a dispute with Dr CSJ? Yes those who admire Dr CSJ close to a degree that resembles a worship, you will brand Chiam See Tong as being "too soft" or "too meek" to stand up to the regime. To me, he represents the shrewd politician who is able to survive as an opposition in spite of the policies which are significantly unfriendly towards the opposition.
Is Dr CSJ then comparable to people like Mandela, Gandhi or Martin Luther King? Hardly so. Those people were smarter because they were able to mobilise widespread support through the correct actions. Do we see a similar degree of support for Dr CSJ in Singapore today?
All in all, the above represents my personal opinion.
For those who are displeased because I said something negative about Dr CSJ, go ahead and label me a "PAP dog". I have only 2 things to say to you. First, your close-mindedness to criticisms of Dr CSJ is nowhere better than the close-mindedness of the regime to criticisms. Next, I don't believe that the regime is flawless. Just that we need to know HOW to fix it even though we may already know WHAT to fix.
For those who are more rational, I hope this gives an insight into what I think is hindering Dr CSJ from ever achieving the ideals which he holds dear and fights so fervently for. That is the reason why I will never support him unconditionally.
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Originally posted by teraexa:
Is there any wonder why Chiam See Tong left SDP when he had a dispute with Dr CSJ? Yes those who admire Dr CSJ close to a degree that resembles a worship, you will brand Chiam See Tong as being "too soft" or "too meek" to stand up to the regime. To me, he represents the shrewd politician who is able to survive as an opposition in spite of the policies which are significantly unfriendly towards the opposition.
Is Dr CSJ then comparable to people like Mandela, Gandhi or Martin Luther King? Hardly so. Those people were smarter because they were able to mobilise widespread support through the correct actions. Do we see a similar degree of support for Dr CSJ in Singapore today?
All in all, the above represents my personal opinion.
For those who are displeased because I said something negative about Dr CSJ, go ahead and label me a "PAP dog". I have only 2 things to say to you. First, your close-mindedness to criticisms of Dr CSJ is nowhere better than the close-mindedness of the regime to criticisms. Next, I don't believe that the regime is flawless. Just that we need to know HOW to fix it even though we may already know WHAT to fix.
For those who are more rational, I hope this gives an insight into what I think is hindering Dr CSJ from ever achieving the ideals which he holds dear and fights so fervently for. That is the reason why I will never support him unconditionally.
To be fair, as things stand, Chee probably offers the best hope of toppling this dictatorship.
Let's set the record straight on some points - Chee isn't wrong to envisage civil disobedience being an effective tool to trouble a despotic regime; if anything, his mistake stems from assuming a bunch of ill-informed, misguided, propaganda-fed, delusion-induced citizenry would achieve the feats through civil disobedience (which requires the cooperation of the masses to be effective) in the same manner the populace under the illustrious leaderships of Ghandhi, Walesa, King and Mandela did. That said, it hardly renders Chee brainless to engage in his actions - after all, Aung San Suu Kyi (and hordes of others worldwide) is in the same boat; what separates the latter from the former (Ghandhi, Walesa, King, Mandela) is the end-result of which the struggle is an inevitable by-product. To drive home this point, would you therefore be labelling the likes of Ghandhi, Walesa, King and Mandela as brainless if their titanic efforts had not been successful?
More importantly, the concept of being effective in the conventional sense of the word hardly crosses Chee's mind - he doesn't give a damn about winning an election; neither does he care about becoming a Prime Minister someday. If anything, he's more interested in toppling this regime than reaping the benefits of his labour (you could always argue he's cut out to be an activist, but not a politician; that said, that is probably what this regime needs now). In that regard, while it's probably fair to suggest Chee is the last man you'd bet on toppling this regime through the electoral process dictated by this regime, he probably offers a much likelier bet of bringing about a lasting democratic change.
After all, for all the civility and diplomacy Chiam offers (as opposed to Chee), what hope can you realistically pin on what is effectively a toothless sycopant who is a hopeless political strategist? For all his rhetoric about the merits of running a "by-election" campaign in the past (where he openly encouraged the electorate to vote for the opposition by ceding power to the fascists on nomination day), what has he achieved - or for that matter, is there anything to suggest he even has more to offer than Chee? - in terms of empowering the opposition? While you could pin the blame for the opposition's poor showing on a shambolic electoral process and a substantial bunch of misinformed electorate who aren't necessarily empowered to make an informed decision, Chiam's failed campaigns clearly reinforce the notion that - as Chee rightly points out - you don't vote out dictatorships (and this is a trend observed the world over).
What are the chances of Chiam bringing about the long-lasting democratic changes he so vehemently champions (albeit through a conciliatory and accommodating tone in line with what the regime expects) through an electoral process that takes on farcical proportions? As likely as having a monkey type out the complete works of Shakespeare if you asked me...
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Think about it this way:
Dr. Chee has spent over a decade to study to be a neurologist. A neurologist! He's qualified to operate on brains and make big money out of it. But what is he doing?
Regardless of the results, anyone will have to salute him. If I were in his shoes, and the country and its media took a collective shit on my head, I would've emigrated ages ago and give myself, and my family a very, very comfortable life.
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Originally posted by walesa:
To be fair, as things stand, Chee probably offers the best hope of toppling this dictatorship.
Let's set the record straight on some points - Chee isn't wrong to envisage civil disobedience being an effective tool to trouble a despotic regime; if anything, his mistake stems from assuming a bunch of ill-informed, misguided, propaganda-fed, delusion-induced citizenry would achieve the feats through civil disobedience (which requires the cooperation of the masses to be effective) in the same manner the populace under the illustrious leaderships of Ghandhi, Walesa, King and Mandela did. That said, it hardly renders Chee brainless to engage in his actions - after all, Aung San Suu Kyi (and hordes of others worldwide) is in the same boat; what separates the latter from the former (Ghandhi, Walesa, King, Mandela) is the end-result of which the struggle is an inevitable by-product. To drive home this point, would you therefore be labelling the likes of Ghandhi, Walesa, King and Mandela as brainless if their titanic efforts had not been successful?
More importantly, the concept of being effective in the conventional sense of the word hardly crosses Chee's mind - he doesn't give a damn about winning an election; neither does he care about becoming a Prime Minister someday. If anything, he's more interested in toppling this regime than reaping the benefits of his labour (you could always argue he's cut out to be an activist, but not a politician; that said, that is probably what this regime needs now). In that regard, while it's probably fair to suggest Chee is the last man you'd bet on toppling this regime through the electoral process dictated by this regime, he probably offers a much likelier bet of bringing about a lasting democratic change.
After all, for all the civility and diplomacy Chiam offers (as opposed to Chee), what hope can you realistically pin on what is effectively a toothless sycopant who is a hopeless political strategist? For all his rhetoric about the merits of running a "by-election" campaign in the past (where he openly encouraged the electorate to vote for the opposition by ceding power to the fascists on nomination day), what has he achieved - or for that matter, is there anything to suggest he even has more to offer than Chee? - in terms of empowering the opposition? While you could pin the blame for the opposition's poor showing on a shambolic electoral process and a substantial bunch of misinformed electorate who aren't necessarily empowered to make an informed decision, Chiam's failed campaigns clearly reinforce the notion that - as Chee rightly points out - you don't vote out dictatorships (and this is a trend observed the world over).
What are the chances of Chiam bringing about the long-lasting democratic changes he so vehemently champions (albeit through a conciliatory and accommodating tone in line with what the regime expects) through an electoral process that takes on farcical proportions? As likely as having a monkey type out the complete works of Shakespeare if you asked me...
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Originally posted by NEWater:
Think about it this way:
Dr. Chee has spent over a decade to study to be a neurologist. A neurologist! He's qualified to operate on brains and make big money out of it. But what is he doing?
Regardless of the results, anyone will have to salute him. If I were in his shoes, and the country and its media took a collective shit on my head, I would've emigrated ages ago and give myself, and my family a very, very comfortable life.
It's the belief that drives people like CSJ and the late JBJ on...
I mean.. look at JBJ.. God bless his soul.. he was a rich lawyer who had everything... but when he finally decided to speak out his beliefs and point out the flaws of our government, he was silenced, bankrupted and kicked out of parliament.
JBJ could have left long ago. But he chose not to. I guess he knew full well that S'poreans are generally not as empowered. After what walesa said, being spoon-fed propaganda and all. JBJ wasn't doing this for himself. He was doing it for all we chicken-hearted S'poreans afraid of losing everything and being jailed for our beliefs.
It's the same with CSJ. Back when he just returned to Singapore in 1990 he was a lecturer at NUS.. he had a car, happily married and a healthy income. After he got first got sued in 1993..(i might be wrong) he could have jolly well packed-up and go, but he stayed on, for the same reason. Even until now, with 3 kids, he still does it. Because like JBJ, he knows S'poreans still need that extra push to empower themselves.
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Originally posted by Pentaxdude90:
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It's the same with CSJ. Back when he just returned to Singapore in 1990 he was a lecturer at NUS.. he had a car, happily married and a healthy income. After he got first got sued in 1993..(i might be wrong) he could have jolly well packed-up and go, but he stayed on, for the same reason. Even until now, with 3 kids, he still does it. Because like JBJ, he knows S'poreans still need that extra push to empower themselves.
does anyone know how chee supports himself, his cause and his family?
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He shout, argue till someone pay him to stop ....
My guess .
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As what i mentioned earlier, JBJ and CSJ lack that witty ideologies to bring PAP to their knees, they do not understand that an egg can never win a rock. They should join the rock, mould themselve to be solid and better than the rock so as to become a diamond, then they can turn around and challenge the rock.
Our oppositions alway claim that PAP are cunning and witty, but that is politic at it very best. As an opposition, you should be more cunning and witty inorder to beat them. But sad to say that our opposition are too straightforward and fail to know their enemy well before engaging them.
Look at terrorism of 911, the pilot joined the US airforce, learn the trade, joined the commercial airline and finally fulfil his obligation he set out for...patience, endurance and tolerance is the key to success.
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They should join the rock, mould themselve to be solid and better than the rock so as to become a diamond, then they can turn around and challenge the rock.
So what should opposition do?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
So what should opposition do?
Join PAP, climb your way up and change them from withinEven when fighting wars it's not just about charging into the battlefield and letting your opponents gun you down.
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Join PAP, climb your way up and change them from within
Must wait how long to succeed?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Must wait how long to succeed?
How long has JBJ and CSJ been fighting? -
How long has JBJ and CSJ been fighting?
JBJ since 1971.
Chee since 1991.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
JBJ since 1971.
Chee since 1991.
Fighting for decades and in the end, what was significantly achieved?
In these time period, the new young bloods recruited into PAP had already contributed to the relaxation of it's control. Only by a little, perhaps, but no doubt already significant for Singapore.
What if these talents join the opposition? What would they have in their power to do except rallying on the streets and going in and out of jail?
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In these time period, the new young bloods recruited into PAP had already contributed to the relaxation of it's control.
Young blood contributed to relaxation of control?
Who?
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
So what should opposition do?
the opposition should at first submit themselve to PAP, join them, learn from them, know their secret, learn their trade, make them trust you, then get promoted to higher PAP govt position, from there, slowly change to concept of governing, gather strenght and support and once the time is ripe, perform a coup de grace, bring down the PAP, and raise the hammer flag.If you are an advocate of getting rid of PAP, you must hv patience, it may take you a lifetime of your life to achieve it, but once success, you will cherish it. During LKY accendent to PM, he was with the opposition, co-operated with the ruling govt, know the in and out of them, gather support and win others heart into his side, and when time is ripe,...he go all the way, fortunately, he succeed in a short time, cos most of them at that time are not well educated, that is why he make sure that his PAP govts must be very well educated.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
Young blood contributed to relaxation of control?
Who?
PRC gals -
Originally posted by NEWater:
Think about it this way:
Dr. Chee has spent over a decade to study to be a neurologist. A neurologist! He's qualified to operate on brains and make big money out of it. But what is he doing?
Regardless of the results, anyone will have to salute him. If I were in his shoes, and the country and its media took a collective shit on my head, I would've emigrated ages ago and give myself, and my family a very, very comfortable life.
First, he is not a neurologist. He studied neuropsychology and is a psychologist. A neurologist is a medical doctor who specializes in disorders of the nervous system. second, a neurologist is not qualified to operate on brains. That is done by a neurosurgeon.
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During LKY accendent to PM, he was with the opposition
He created his own party.
He didn't infiltrate opposition party.
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Originally posted by Poh Ah Pak:
He created his own party.
He didn't infiltrate opposition party.
Even so, we've got to recognise that the political situation then is vastly different from now.
Dr CSJ is stupid not because of what he fights for. Frankly, I respect him for what he fights.
How he fights though, is something that I don't approve of.
Get my point of view correct. The only thing I have against Dr CSJ is how he fought, not what he fights for.
We know that "dying for a just cause" is plain bull since when you die, you can't contribute tangibly to the cause anymore unless you are worshipped as a martyr. That is not going to happen to Dr CSJ soon.
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Does carry a plycard displaying "Down with PAP!", getting arrested for demostrating, makes one a hero worthy of worship?
One will only get sympathies, not for courage or for the cause, but for his stupidity.
It takes more than just to complain. We Singaporeans are masters of KBKP. If by complaining makes one a hero, Everyone of us would a 'hero' overnight.
It takes more than just listing down faults - real or alleged. It needs workable and peer reviewed solutions, to replace faults or taking down a ruling party.
Otherwise, it will be a case of 'jumping out of the boiling pot into the frying pan'.
To facillitate change, one needs to be a leader, with a clear manifesto and get elected. This generation is no longer the uneducated generation our forefathers were. Sloganism is dead. Accountability and true capability is wanted. Once elected, he only needs to work on his electorate on municipal issues to show that he is capable of small things.
IF not, then there is no credibility on his worth to move on to loftier issues affecting the nation.
If he cannot even get elected, it already shows one's capability. A leader has no excuses, otherwise, anyone one of us would be a hero and get generations later to worship each and everyone of us.
It's beating the odds and coming out ontop and staying on top with sound policies that makes one a hero, worthy of respect and emulation for generations such as Dr Goh Kweng Swee.
Going to jail stupidly, going against society's rules, going against the electorate, making wild allegations without real evidence is no hero. Heaven forbide, others following his example!
My 2cts worth. am never interested in politics, cause whomever gets elected, i still have to pay taxes.