My first reaction was, "Sigh, Jews are attempting to re-enact the Holocaust on others."
I've stopped caring about the Israel-Palestinian thing, really. They're like two children fighting over a cookie jar, and have broken it two dozen times, the cookies are broken and full of glass bits but they're still tumbling around the floor like morons.
Typical first reactions would be, "Hey, that's not right! The Holocaust was the industrialized and mechanized mass-murdering of people. And what Israel does is far far away from that."
Yes, that may be true, but has anyone ever considered how earlier events had turned out, on the year 1948 when the state of Israel was born?
In April 1948, the same month as the infamous massacre at Deir Yassin and the mortar attack on Palestinian civilians in Haifa's market square, Plan Dalet was put into operation. This authorised the destruction of Palestinian villages and the expulsion of the indigenous population outside the borders of the state.
In July 1948, 70,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in Lydda and Ramleh in the heat of the summer with no food or water. Hundreds died. It was known as the Death March.
In all, 750,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some 400 villages were wiped off the map. That did not end the ethnic cleansing. Thousands of Palestinians (Israeli citizens) were expelled from the Galilee in 1956. Many thousands more when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Under international law and sanctioned by UN resolution 194, refugees from war have a right to return or compensation. Israel has never accepted that right.
A lot of people in the West are utterly incapable of sympathy or solidarity with the Palestinians, because they are Muslim, because they are not white, because they look like the enemy in their own "War on Terror" The cheerleading for Israel, no matter what they do, and the callous dismissal of Palestinian suffering with "they had it coming" is absolutely sickening.
It is spurious to compare Israeli actions with the Holocaust, or to equate IDF troops with Nazi Stormtroopers, there is no similarity in intention, or in scale, but like an abused child, the state of Israel reacts in an abuse way itself, born in violence it knows no other way to behave.
Insulated from the true disastrous impact of their actions by an impenetrable belief in their own victimhood, they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, as the regional superpower, to exercise some moral leadership.
Until Israel grows up and stops being led by the nose by Hamas though cycle after cycle of violence and oppression, they will never be able to guarantee their citizens safety, and the Palestinians won't be able to hope for any future at all.
Yet despite all that, has anyone ever noticed that America has been giving Israel plenty of free passes? What they have done, would've made America wag its collective finger at any other country and immediately paste the "Axis of Evil" label on it.
- Development of nuclear weapons despite not being party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty opened for signature on July 1 1968. North Korea has done the same, and the West is giving hell to it. But not to Israel. It's useless to give Israel trouble over it because USA would immediately veto any discussion about it.
- Not recognizing the result of a democratically-elected government (Hamas), which Hamas admittedly got itself voted in out of merit in being more capable in providing basic services to their own people.
- An invasion into sovereign territory, Lebanon, where the United Nations would've slammed Israel right away if it was done by some other nation, like Iran. Useless to give Israel trouble about it because USA will immediately use its veto powers.
- Hemming in an entire populace and cutting them off from the outside world. Basically, a ghetto. UN may/may not give Israel trouble about it, but will be veto'd by USA anyway.
etc.
One may argue that Hamas is not an appropriate government for the Palestinians, but who are we to decide? Did Woodrow Wilson not declare self-determination for all during the formation of the League of Nations? Did the US military not invade two separate, sovereign nations and attempt to instill democracy to their political systems? Hamas' election has been democracy in action, just as they desire to spread to the world, but they had rejected it.
For a nation that prides its own armed forces to be "Protectors", "Liberators", and "Warriors", from that action mentioned above, it has become farcial to claim to be "Liberators" when they refuse to accept the results of a democratic election. It makes them no better than a certain Robert Gabriel Mugabe.
Is this all about US-bashing? No. What I do care about, is how people perceive human suffering. I will quote the US Constitution, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " All men are equal. What sickened me is how people have been saying, "Ha ha! The IDF is going to kick some ass!" without pondering about the unfortunate misery and suffering this will endow unto even more people. Neither do I condone what the Palestinians have been doing with their rockets to Israel, but it's not right at all to be crying out in joy when the other party strikes out to make things even worse than they already are.
[Double Post]
This written by you, or quoted?
I'd be rather shocked if Singaporeans actually thought the IDF is going to kick some ass.
This war is dragging on for too long...if a peaceful solution is not possible, why prolong the suffering and let others benefit from the situation? The jews should have nuked hamas when they had the chance to
It was written by me, Stevenson. You may find parts of it on Google, because I referenced plenty of material. And RE: the IDF ass-kicking, it's addressing the West. And yes, I do speak a lot with Americans. :\
Originally posted by NEWater:My first reaction was, "Sigh, Jews are attempting to re-enact the Holocaust on others."
I've stopped caring about the Israel-Palestinian thing, really. They're like two children fighting over a cookie jar, and have broken it two dozen times, the cookies are broken and full of glass bits but they're still tumbling around the floor like morons.
Typical first reactions would be, "Hey, that's not right! The Holocaust was the industrialized and mechanized mass-murdering of people. And what Israel does is far far away from that."
Yes, that may be true, but has anyone ever considered how earlier events had turned out, on the year 1948 when the state of Israel was born?
In April 1948, the same month as the infamous massacre at Deir Yassin and the mortar attack on Palestinian civilians in Haifa's market square, Plan Dalet was put into operation. This authorised the destruction of Palestinian villages and the expulsion of the indigenous population outside the borders of the state.
In July 1948, 70,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in Lydda and Ramleh in the heat of the summer with no food or water. Hundreds died. It was known as the Death March.
In all, 750,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some 400 villages were wiped off the map. That did not end the ethnic cleansing. Thousands of Palestinians (Israeli citizens) were expelled from the Galilee in 1956. Many thousands more when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Under international law and sanctioned by UN resolution 194, refugees from war have a right to return or compensation. Israel has never accepted that right.A lot of people in the West are utterly incapable of sympathy or solidarity with the Palestinians, because they are Muslim, because they are not white, because they look like the enemy in their own "War on Terror" The cheerleading for Israel, no matter what they do, and the callous dismissal of Palestinian suffering with "they had it coming" is absolutely sickening.
It is spurious to compare Israeli actions with the Holocaust, or to equate IDF troops with Nazi Stormtroopers, there is no similarity in intention, or in scale, but like an abused child, the state of Israel reacts in an abuse way itself, born in violence it knows no other way to behave.
Insulated from the true disastrous impact of their actions by an impenetrable belief in their own victimhood, they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, as the regional superpower, to exercise some moral leadership.
Until Israel grows up and stops being led by the nose by Hamas though cycle after cycle of violence and oppression, they will never be able to guarantee their citizens safety, and the Palestinians won't be able to hope for any future at all.
Yet despite all that, has anyone ever noticed that America has been giving Israel plenty of free passes? What they have done, would've made America wag its collective finger at any other country and immediately paste the "Axis of Evil" label on it.
- Development of nuclear weapons despite not being party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty opened for signature on July 1 1968. North Korea has done the same, and the West is giving hell to it. But not to Israel. It's useless to give Israel trouble over it because USA would immediately veto any discussion about it.
- Not recognizing the result of a democratically-elected government (Hamas), which Hamas admittedly got itself voted in out of merit in being more capable in providing basic services to their own people.
- An invasion into sovereign territory, Lebanon, where the United Nations would've slammed Israel right away if it was done by some other nation, like Iran. Useless to give Israel trouble about it because USA will immediately use its veto powers.
- Hemming in an entire populace and cutting them off from the outside world. Basically, a ghetto. UN may/may not give Israel trouble about it, but will be veto'd by USA anyway.
etc.One may argue that Hamas is not an appropriate government for the Palestinians, but who are we to decide? Did Woodrow Wilson not declare self-determination for all during the formation of the League of Nations? Did the US military not invade two separate, sovereign nations and attempt to instill democracy to their political systems? Hamas' election has been democracy in action, just as they desire to spread to the world, but they had rejected it.
For a nation that prides its own armed forces to be "Protectors", "Liberators", and "Warriors", from that action mentioned above, it has become farcial to claim to be "Liberators" when they refuse to accept the results of a democratic election. It makes them no better than a certain Robert Gabriel Mugabe.Is this all about US-bashing? No. What I do care about, is how people perceive human suffering. I will quote the US Constitution, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " All men are equal. What sickened me is how people have been saying, "Ha ha! The IDF is going to kick some ass!" without pondering about the unfortunate misery and suffering this will endow unto even more people. Neither do I condone what the Palestinians have been doing with their rockets to Israel, but it's not right at all to be crying out in joy when the other party strikes out to make things even worse than they already are.
Palestinian propaganda?
Originally posted by NEWater:It was written by me, Stevenson. You may find parts of it on Google, because I referenced plenty of material. And RE: the IDF ass-kicking, it's addressing the West. And yes, I do speak a lot with Americans. :\
The Americans are always such a contradiction. On one hand they produced so much great thinkers and scientists, on the other hand they voted in Bush.
Originally posted by googoomuck:Palestinian propaganda?
Do you honestly think I'm cooking up Palestinian propaganda? There's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise if you think so.
Originally posted by Stevenson101:The Americans are always such a contradiction. On one hand they produced so much great thinkers and scientists, on the other hand they voted in Bush.
That's the blessing and curse of America at the same time, that it's full of creativity. But creativity only means being free to make mistakes, and art is where the mistakes don't fail, but end up flourishing.
How Bush managed to stay on for two terms was a culmination of the shifting of the cultural pendulum to Conservatism since Ronald Reagan, and the election of Obama has signalled the pendulum swinging back to Liberalism, which was previously heralded by the election of FD Roosevelt.
In any case we should be siding with Israel, the roots of SAF lies in IDF anyway
Originally posted by Arkansaw:In any case we should be siding with Israel, the roots of SAF lies in IDF anyway
If I were to follow your logic, this is what's gonna happen:
- The whole of Europe is eternally obligated to do USA's bidding because of how "they saved them during WWII and owe it to America".
- We are obligated to forever have LKY as our Lord and Saviour and Minister Mentor (is happening, unfortunately)
- All of eastern Europe is obligated to bend over backwards to accomodate Russia because they "liberated them from the fascists" in WWII.
- All Chinese are obligated to hate the West because they ravaged and humiliated China between late 19th century and early 20th century.
- SAF is obligated to support IDF.
History is one thing. Thinking that someone, or some entity is forever obligated because of a past favor is completely different.
Originally posted by NEWater:Do you honestly think I'm cooking up Palestinian propaganda? There's nothing I can do to convince you otherwise if you think so.
Bias against Israel ?
Originally posted by googoomuck:Bias against Israel ?
If you've been saying all of this because your faith so happens to be Christianity, I wouldn't blame you for having your judgement so tainted through the rose-tinted lenses that it enables you to see the world.
Originally posted by NEWater:If you've been saying all of this because your faith so happens to be Christianity, I wouldn't blame you for having your judgement so tainted through the rose-tinted lenses that it enables you to see the world.
In fact the Christians blame the Jews for cruxifying Jesus.
The whole issue in Gaza is all about "You hit me, I hit you back", isnt it. As such, who is to blame? And who started it? It is difficult to tell isn't it
I read in the papers today that Arab nations are calling a stop to the "terrorist" acts of Israel of bombing the Gaza but Western nations are concerned that they made no reference at all to the rockets launched by Hamas at Israel.
So who is to blame? Israel? Maybe. Hamas? Maybe. Even Fatah? Maybe.
We all know the Arab nations hate the guts of Israel. A predominantly christian nation surrounded by a number of Arab nations whose tendencies to support extreme military measures cause alot of concerns to other nations. They hate the guts that throughout history, no Arab nations were able to defeat Israel. In Gaza itself, infighting between the factions of Fatah and Hamas got to the worst in 2007 where a number of Palestinians are killed.
Who is really right? Who has got secret agendas? To be honest, no one really knows. And as such, I think it will be nonsense to pledge support for any side. Even the international community is not pledging any sort of support. They just want a ceasefire, somehow.
The only fact is that innocent people died.
In fact, the relationship between Israel and its Arab neighbours can be seen like an escalated version of that between Singapore and its Muslim neighbours. We try not to let things go that far, but if the worst happens we have to fight like the way Israel did. It is amusing to see some pple getting so interested in 'world' affairs, until they forget their positions.
Originally posted by Arkansaw:In fact, the relationship between Israel and its Arab neighbours can be seen like an escalated version of that between Singapore and its Muslim neighbours. We try not to let things go that far, but if the worst happens we have to fight like the way Israel did. It is amusing to see some pple getting so interested in 'world' affairs, until they forget their positions.
I have 5 months to go till my ORD, and I've seen enough to know that Singapore would never make it out intact when push comes to shove. It's the small-minded, small-town mentality hillbillies like you that are constantly dragging this country behind.
'Sides, I'm not intending on sticking around for long after I ORD.
LOL, kudos (not!) for giving yourself up as a quitter-wannabe
Originally posted by NEWater:I have 5 months to go till my ORD, and I've seen enough to know everything.
'Sides, I'm not intending on sticking around for long after I ORD.
besides, this is memorable to be quoted for laughs! Singapore can always do with one less traitor
Originally posted by gasband:The whole issue in Gaza is all about "You hit me, I hit you back", isnt it. As such, who is to blame? And who started it? It is difficult to tell isn't it
I read in the papers today that Arab nations are calling a stop to the "terrorist" acts of Israel of bombing the Gaza but Western nations are concerned that they made no reference at all to the rockets launched by Hamas at Israel.
So who is to blame? Israel? Maybe. Hamas? Maybe. Even Fatah? Maybe.
We all know the Arab nations hate the guts of Israel. A predominantly christian nation surrounded by a number of Arab nations whose tendencies to support extreme military measures cause alot of concerns to other nations. They hate the guts that throughout history, no Arab nations were able to defeat Israel. In Gaza itself, infighting between the factions of Fatah and Hamas got to the worst in 2007 where a number of Palestinians are killed.
Who is really right? Who has got secret agendas? To be honest, no one really knows. And as such, I think it will be nonsense to pledge support for any side. Even the international community is not pledging any sort of support. They just want a ceasefire, somehow.
The only fact is that innocent people died.
It's very clear that the Arabs are biased when theymade no reference to rocket attacks by Hamas.
The return of Gilad Shalit, is the prerequisite to any ceasefire agreement.
If the Hamas is not willing to return Shalit dead or alive and stop firing rockets into Israel, it's unreasonable to expect Israel to unilaterally agree to a ceasefire.
Israel is not a predominantly Christian nation.
So question, how do you plan to stop Hamas, who deliberately uses human shields? This is the one question that no 'peace loving hippie' can answer. On some forum, someone suggested "arresting" them. Wow, I didn't know you can arrest an armed combatant who has IEDs, RPGs, AK-47s... an armory. What's worse is that if Hamas followed Hezbollah's tactics, there'd be underground tunnels and bunkers under a civilian area. How do you plan to deal with that?
OLDwater, the US is NOT the west! Let's try not to generalise.
Originally posted by googoomuck:
Israel is not a predominantly Christian nation.
Judaism <> Christianity.
Rather blame the British for coming up with the idea in the first damn place.
Originally posted by NEWater:My first reaction was, "Sigh, Jews are attempting to re-enact the Holocaust on others."
I've stopped caring about the Israel-Palestinian thing, really. They're like two children fighting over a cookie jar, and have broken it two dozen times, the cookies are broken and full of glass bits but they're still tumbling around the floor like morons.
Typical first reactions would be, "Hey, that's not right! The Holocaust was the industrialized and mechanized mass-murdering of people. And what Israel does is far far away from that."
Yes, that may be true, but has anyone ever considered how earlier events had turned out, on the year 1948 when the state of Israel was born?
In April 1948, the same month as the infamous massacre at Deir Yassin and the mortar attack on Palestinian civilians in Haifa's market square, Plan Dalet was put into operation. This authorised the destruction of Palestinian villages and the expulsion of the indigenous population outside the borders of the state.
In July 1948, 70,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in Lydda and Ramleh in the heat of the summer with no food or water. Hundreds died. It was known as the Death March.
In all, 750,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some 400 villages were wiped off the map. That did not end the ethnic cleansing. Thousands of Palestinians (Israeli citizens) were expelled from the Galilee in 1956. Many thousands more when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Under international law and sanctioned by UN resolution 194, refugees from war have a right to return or compensation. Israel has never accepted that right.A lot of people in the West are utterly incapable of sympathy or solidarity with the Palestinians, because they are Muslim, because they are not white, because they look like the enemy in their own "War on Terror" The cheerleading for Israel, no matter what they do, and the callous dismissal of Palestinian suffering with "they had it coming" is absolutely sickening.
It is spurious to compare Israeli actions with the Holocaust, or to equate IDF troops with Nazi Stormtroopers, there is no similarity in intention, or in scale, but like an abused child, the state of Israel reacts in an abuse way itself, born in violence it knows no other way to behave.
Insulated from the true disastrous impact of their actions by an impenetrable belief in their own victimhood, they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, as the regional superpower, to exercise some moral leadership.
Until Israel grows up and stops being led by the nose by Hamas though cycle after cycle of violence and oppression, they will never be able to guarantee their citizens safety, and the Palestinians won't be able to hope for any future at all.
Yet despite all that, has anyone ever noticed that America has been giving Israel plenty of free passes? What they have done, would've made America wag its collective finger at any other country and immediately paste the "Axis of Evil" label on it.
- Development of nuclear weapons despite not being party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty opened for signature on July 1 1968. North Korea has done the same, and the West is giving hell to it. But not to Israel. It's useless to give Israel trouble over it because USA would immediately veto any discussion about it.
- Not recognizing the result of a democratically-elected government (Hamas), which Hamas admittedly got itself voted in out of merit in being more capable in providing basic services to their own people.
- An invasion into sovereign territory, Lebanon, where the United Nations would've slammed Israel right away if it was done by some other nation, like Iran. Useless to give Israel trouble about it because USA will immediately use its veto powers.
- Hemming in an entire populace and cutting them off from the outside world. Basically, a ghetto. UN may/may not give Israel trouble about it, but will be veto'd by USA anyway.
etc.One may argue that Hamas is not an appropriate government for the Palestinians, but who are we to decide? Did Woodrow Wilson not declare self-determination for all during the formation of the League of Nations? Did the US military not invade two separate, sovereign nations and attempt to instill democracy to their political systems? Hamas' election has been democracy in action, just as they desire to spread to the world, but they had rejected it.
For a nation that prides its own armed forces to be "Protectors", "Liberators", and "Warriors", from that action mentioned above, it has become farcial to claim to be "Liberators" when they refuse to accept the results of a democratic election. It makes them no better than a certain Robert Gabriel Mugabe.Is this all about US-bashing? No. What I do care about, is how people perceive human suffering. I will quote the US Constitution, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. " All men are equal. What sickened me is how people have been saying, "Ha ha! The IDF is going to kick some ass!" without pondering about the unfortunate misery and suffering this will endow unto even more people. Neither do I condone what the Palestinians have been doing with their rockets to Israel, but it's not right at all to be crying out in joy when the other party strikes out to make things even worse than they already are.
...and who started it first?