unscrupulous bosses
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Mr Y.K. Tan, managing director of Kenyon Engineering, said he hired a fresh engineering graduate as a 'worker' last year. His responsibilities? To pull cables on site projects on a starting pay of $900 a month.
I read with amusement especially the opinion stated by this YK Tan from Kenyon Engr. No doubt, in time of economic crisis, company not doing well would resort to cutting the starting pay of fresh grad. But hey, if you were to visit this kenyon website, they are actually boasting of increased revenue as well as profit?
But after five months of doing menial work and proving his worth, the employee has now been promoted to engineer.
His pay has also jumped to $2,100 a month.
As fresh graduates lack the working experience, Mr Tan said that it is best if they are trained at lower wages, and see if they are up to the job.
He received applications from some fresh graduates who are asking for $2,400 to $2,600 as monthly starting pay.
'These go straight into the wastepaper basket,' he said, as it is not realistic.
He pointed out that since the Asian financial crisis in 1998, pay packets are 30 per cent lower now - following the constricting job market for graduates.
What does this shows? Unscrupulous bosses/companies that tries to take advantage of this crisis and get some cheap labour. -
Originally posted by rudyiskandar:I read with amusement especially the opinion stated by this YK Tan from Kenyon Engr. No doubt, in time of economic crisis, company not doing well would resort to cutting the starting pay of fresh grad. But hey, if you were to visit this kenyon website, they are actually boasting of increased revenue as well as profit?
What does this shows? Unscrupulous bosses/companies that tries to take advantage of this crisis and get some cheap labour.
Yah. At least they should back pay the dude. 
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hah... itp also the same. they pay u like $500, and ask u do the same job as a fully paid adult. but hey... life is like that la huh... my uncle tell me not to set my expectation too high. said we becoming spoilt.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:hah... itp also the same. they pay u like $500, and ask u do the same job as a fully paid adult. but hey... life is like that la huh... my uncle tell me not to set my expectation too high. said we becoming spoilt. Spoilt? At least must pay us what is deserved.
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One's worth cannot be determined by looking at a piece of paper certificate.Originally posted by Parka: Spoilt? At least must pay us what is deserved.
One's worth to an Enterprise is determined by the 'bottom line' profit and loss that is incurred by one's employment.
If you are worth what your paper certificate shows, then prove your mettle to the boss, and he will not want to lose you when he realise that he has a gem in his grasp.
Name your price then.... but do not forget, there are others waiting for the same opportunity given to you, and just as willing to prove their ability to the boss.
It is simple economics of 'Supply and Demand'. -
of course! I fully agree that one have to prove his worth and that the cert is nothing more than a piece of paper. but hey, can one worth be proven by pulling cables? for months?
If that manager Tan is trying to prove that the poor guy can take hardship, he should note that the guy probably spend 2.5 years of his life either as a lowly army clerk or in a combat unit. So my question is how is those 6 months of pulling cables going to prove his capability?
Even if he thinks that pulling cable is a test of a person patience, he should have backpay the poor bloke for those 6 months.
Finally, why did'nt he implement such a scheme way back then when the economy is good?
It's crystal clear that these people are very unscrupulous and to think that he even dare to talk about it in the papers.
Now we all know that Kenyon Engineering is a really pathetic company to work in.
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it is a free world. If u dun like the way, then dun join the firm
Demand and supply problem again.
In fact, in the business world, unscrupulous is the name of the game, though it is not encouraged in entrepreunership courses, but in real life, u hav to be shrewd to survive.
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ah... be as wise as a serpent and as harmless as a dove eh?
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The management at Kenyon are'nt being shrewed...they are simply being dumb. The way a company treats its employees tells alot about where it's heading.
It's like they are advertising to the world what a low down and cheap company it is. Of course any one with brain would know that it's a supply and demand thing....there will always be suckers who gets sucked in! -
Certainly if one think that pulling wire or cable is beyond the dignity of a halo-ed certificate, then one need not even consider to be employed for even a single day.
However, if one is to be employed as an Engineer in an Electrical Cabling Company, then it is important for a young inexperienced graduate to learn the entire business from the ground up.
There have been many instances where a young Engineer botched up a Company's reputation, when thrown into a responsible position fresh from graduation.
Filled with theoretical confidence, he ended up with the inability to face actual real life problems and "work relationship" matters on the job, only to cause losses to the company.
"Pulling wire or cables" is similar to a "fresh" Doctor serving an internship, learning the "ropes" of his trade, and such internship can last over a year or two.
One can also link to the SAF requirement of how Officers are groomed, from recruit to the senior ranks.
However, it will be scary if some reach Brigadier General rank due to political or scholarly connections, instead of real military merit, and with the promotion processes being speeded through to achieve some obscure agenda.
Scary thought, in that military campaigns will be planned by such inexperienced Generals, who do not realise the difficulties and dangers in capturing an enemy occupied objective, and have no idea as to the cost in human lives.
If one is dissatisfied with the work environment, one can always quit, especially in a civilian work environment.
If one cannot take the heat, one can always get out of the kitchen. -
Mr & Mrs See from The Scent Shop Pte Ltd oso e same!
When they reprimand their staffs, they would scold their father, mother, grandmother, etc...Doing OT for them oso no OT pay!
give u a month's salary, but treat u like a Mariah!
and in their shop, the burners they sell r from china(it is stated on the burner) but they claim tat they r from European countries!
Some products had been place over the expiry date but they still sell it to us! its disgusting!
the price in the shop is priced anyhow... not to the market rate!
they like they increase the price! not onli the staff complains them!
even the customers oso complains about The Scent Shop management!
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Mr & Mrs See from The Scent Shop Pte Ltd oso e same!
When they reprimand their staffs, they would scold their father, mother, grandmother, etc...Doing OT for them oso no OT pay!
give u a month's salary, but treat u like a Mariah!
and in their shop, the burners they sell r from china(it is stated on the burner) but they claim tat they r from European countries!
Some products had been place over the expiry date but they still sell it to us! its disgusting!
the price in the shop is priced anyhow... not to the market rate!
they like they increase the price! not onli the staff complains them!
even the customers oso complains about The Scent Shop management! -
sigh... give and take lah... what i think is, they could have made it all a bit more politically correct...
its true that fresh grads do not deserve fat paychecks without first proving their worth. but its also true that a grad should not be unfairly treated just cos the company wants to prove a point or cut cost.
not that pulling cable is below the dignity of a grad... to me, there is only one factor: subsistence. if u're hungry, then u're in no position to talk terms. the economy is NOT good now... if u refuse to work, u starve. others are more than happy to take your place.
what the company could have done that is more in accordance to corporate norms, is to offer the poor guy a "trainee" position and put him on probation for a few (6?) months.
he could STILL be pulling cables and drawing a similar pay, but let there be a frank understanding between employer and employee that he could either be confirmed into a permanent position based on his performance or terminated at the end of the probation period if he does not measure up.
its only fair to state the terms of employment and advancement to a new employee. besides, its such a waste to employ an engineer to pull cables when he could possibly contribute so much more to the company. much cheaper to employ a bangla too... the company being plain extra lah...
wait till the economy recovers then they know... face staff shortage, intense competition to hire employees and bigger companies offering better pay packages then them, then they'll be in trouble if they do not treat their employees properly...
what goes around, comes around... -
Word of Advise and Caution.Originally posted by Venus:Mr & Mrs XXX from The XXXXX Shop Pte Ltd oso e same!
When they reprimand their staffs, they would scold their father, mother, grandmother, etc...Doing OT for them oso no OT pay!
give u a month's salary, but treat u like a Mariah!
and in their shop, the burners they sell r from china(it is stated on the burner) but they claim tat they r from European countries!
Some products had been place over the expiry date but they still sell it to us! its disgusting!
the price in the shop is priced anyhow... not to the market rate!
they like they increase the price! not onli the staff complains them!
even the customers oso complains about The Scent Shop management!
Do not mention specific names in controversial issues such as what you have brought up in this Public Forum.
You are exposed to libel of the private individuals concerned and also to the good name of the business mentioned.
It is best that you [color=red]edit your posting and delete those names immediately[/color]. -
If i'm not wrong a doctor's internship is part of the cycle they face upon successful graduation. This is expected of them as part the bond rather than bucketloads of shit they have to face at a meagre allowance.Originally posted by Atobe:"Pulling wire or cables" is similar to a "fresh" Doctor serving an internship, learning the "ropes" of his trade, and such internship can last over a year or two.
The grads are fully aware of this aspect in doctoring and accept it as well. After all, if they change their minds they can always break their bond.
While i dun entirely agree that an engineer grad shd literally state his pay demands on his job application, i dun expect him to be treated like cheap labour or another IA student. A monthly income of S$900 would (IMO) surely be way too low for a student who was handpicked and interviewed numerous times to get the job mentioned. Even a IA student at exxonmobil gets S$1100...
It's not abt the name of the company. That shd be well safeguarded during the multiple interviews the grad probably had to go thru b4 landing the S$900 job. After all they must have surely picked the finest grad from the "elite" number just lining up for the job. That effectively ensures their money is well spent on their latest investment. -
~As fresh graduates lack the working experience, Mr Tan said that it is best if they are trained at lower wages, and see if they are up to the job. ~
This is rather disgusting from my point of view.
In the working world an employer shd not hire a potential employee to see if he's "cut out" for this kind of work.
Why hire them in the first place then?
It is in the interview where the person's character will raise eyebrows...whether for gd or bad.
If the employer selects an employee without knowing his true potential and merely wants to "try" him out, then perhaps it is the employer who shd seek a new job, since it's obvious he's failed in his task? -
I am not so sure if I understand your term "bond" correctly, but what if the student doctor is not sponsored by any scholarship, will there be such a bond required ?Originally posted by BillyBong:If i'm not wrong a doctor's internship is part of the cycle they face upon successful graduation. This is expected of them as part the bond rather than bucketloads of shit they have to face at a meagre allowance.
The grads are fully aware of this aspect in doctoring and accept it as well. After all, if they change their minds they can always break their bond.
Is the "internship" before or after graduation as a doctor ?
Unfortunately, unlike the profession of doctors, lawyers, and architects, there is no requirement of serving a period of internship after getting the first certified qualification as an Engineer.
The pay package is dependent on whether the Company would actually provide you a period of training, or if they expect the new employee to learn while on the job.Originally posted by BillyBong:While i dun entirely agree that an engineer grad shd literally state his pay demands on his job application, i dun expect him to be treated like cheap labour or another IA student. A monthly income of S$900 would (IMO) surely be way too low for a student who was handpicked and interviewed numerous times to get the job mentioned. Even a IA student at exxonmobil gets S$1100..
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In both instances, some Companies will believe that the training given will be value added to the new employee's basic knowledge and should carry a monetary value taken from a reduced pay package during the probation period.
This is quite normal, as there are some new employees who are known to quit mid-way through the training.
However, I would not compare the salary of a multi-national company such as Exxon-Mobil to that of some local companies.
Exxon-Mobil is in a trade that is almost monopolistic, and revenue is generated no matter the economic condition of the world.
It is not to sound defensive on behalf of employers, but having seen some high turnover of staff in different industries, and at different levels of organisation, one can appreciate the frustrations of employing workers who move on in a short period of less then a year, just to fill in time - until a more suitable job is found.Originally posted by BillyBong:It's not abt the name of the company. That shd be well safeguarded during the multiple interviews the grad probably had to go thru b4 landing the S$900 job. After all they must have surely picked the finest grad from the "elite" number just lining up for the job. That effectively ensures their money is well spent on their latest investment.
It is sometimes very difficult to judge a person's character from first observation of the person's appearance and mannerism.
An employer is hardly a specialist in psycho-analytical field, and in a harsh economic environment, his first consideration is to the continued survivability of his enterprise. -
I am not so sure if I understand your term "bond" correctly, but what if the student doctor is not sponsored by any scholarship, will there be such a bond required ?Originally posted by BillyBong:If i'm not wrong a doctor's internship is part of the cycle they face upon successful graduation. This is expected of them as part the bond rather than bucketloads of shit they have to face at a meagre allowance.
The grads are fully aware of this aspect in doctoring and accept it as well. After all, if they change their minds they can always break their bond.
Is the "internship" before or after graduation as a doctor ?
Unfortunately, unlike the profession of doctors, lawyers, and architects, there is no requirement of serving a period of internship after getting the first certified qualification as an Engineer.
The pay package is dependent on whether the Company would actually provide you a period of training, or if they expect the new employee to learn while on the job.Originally posted by BillyBong:While i dun entirely agree that an engineer grad shd literally state his pay demands on his job application, i dun expect him to be treated like cheap labour or another IA student. A monthly income of S$900 would (IMO) surely be way too low for a student who was handpicked and interviewed numerous times to get the job mentioned. Even a IA student at exxonmobil gets S$1100..
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In both instances, some Companies will believe that the training given will be value added to the new employee's basic knowledge and should carry a monetary value taken from a reduced pay package during the probation period.
This is quite normal, as there are some new employees who are known to quit mid-way through the training.
However, I would not compare the salary of a multi-national company such as Exxon-Mobil to that of some local companies.
Exxon-Mobil is in a trade that is almost monopolistic, and revenue is generated no matter the economic condition of the world.
It is not to sound defensive on behalf of employers, but having seen some high turnover of staff in different industries, and at different levels of organisation, one can appreciate the frustrations of employing workers who move on in a short period of less then a year, just to fill in time - until a more suitable job is found.Originally posted by BillyBong:It's not abt the name of the company. That shd be well safeguarded during the multiple interviews the grad probably had to go thru b4 landing the S$900 job. After all they must have surely picked the finest grad from the "elite" number just lining up for the job. That effectively ensures their money is well spent on their latest investment.
It is sometimes very difficult to judge a person's character from first observation of the person's appearance and mannerism.
An employer is hardly a specialist in psycho-analytical field, and in a harsh economic environment, his first consideration is to the continued survivability of his enterprise. -
I am not so sure if I understand your term "bond" correctly, but what if the student doctor is not sponsored by any scholarship, will there be such a bond required ?
its called 'housemanship' and entry into the medical faculty IS by itself a BOND...
Is the "internship" before or after graduation as a doctor ?Unfortunately, unlike the profession of doctors, lawyers, and architects, there is no requirement of serving a period of internship after getting the first certified qualification as an Engineer.
don't anyhow say lah! lawyers have to go through a pupilage and pass their bar exam... they can't practice straight after graduation u know! and architects take 6 years to complete their course! part of which, if i'm not wrong, is an industrial attachment.
engineering is more shady... u gotta ask an engineering grad how exactly their professional accredition is acquired. but they spend part of their course in industrial attachment too. so they're not totally ignorant about the real world when they graduate.
what they will need acquaintance with however, is the corporate culture of that particular company.The pay package is dependent on whether the Company would actually provide you a period of training, or if they expect the new employee to learn while on the job.
well u get all sorts of exceptions too lah... there are many scumbag companies nowadays who won't increase the pay after probation...
In both instances, some Companies will believe that the training given will be value added to the new employee's basic knowledge and should carry a monetary value taken from a reduced pay package during the probation period.
This is quite normal, as there are some new employees who are known to quit mid-way through the training.However, I would not compare the salary of a multi-national company such as Exxon-Mobil to that of some local companies.
don't generalise... the petroleum industry is oligopolistic, not monopolistic... besides, petro-chem professionals have always commanded a very lucrative payscale because of the knowledge and experience required, the unpleasant work enviornment and the hazards involved.
Exxon-Mobil is in a trade that is almost monopolistic, and revenue is generated no matter the economic condition of the world.
and being a local company does not entitle u to treat your workers like crap or exploit them... mind u, some smaller companies are actually immensely profitable because being small reduces their overheads substantially and in certain sectors, they enjoy rather healthy margins... no reason not to pay your employees what they deserve because it is THEM who helped u make the money in the first place.It is not to sound defensive on behalf of employers, but having seen some high turnover of staff in different industries, and at different levels of organisation, one can appreciate the frustrations of employing workers who move on in a short period of less then a year, just to fill in time - until a more suitable job is found.
welcome to the new economy. look... if the employer is entitled to chop his staff when his bottom-line is affected, why isn't a staff entitled to chop his employer if his bottom line is similarly affected?
now, i do not condone frivolous job hopping of course, but since companies no longer promise lifetime employment, why should employees practice such mis-placed loyalty? its only sensible to move on to greener pasteurs if a better offer has been made elsewhere... if the employer values u, he'll re-negotiate his offer and match the payscale to make u stay. else, he'll just let u leave if u are not under any contractual obligations.It is sometimes very difficult to judge a person's character from first observation of the person's appearance and mannerism.
sadly, thats usually how its done
An employer is hardly a specialist in psycho-analytical field, and in a harsh economic environment, his first consideration is to the continued survivability of his enterprise.
like i said... i find it quite unfair to the grad to be employed to pull cable because the boss was probably exploiting his good nature and desperation and being plain extra.
u wanna test the guy, tell him u're hiring him on probation to test him. it won't make a difference. if he doesn't measure up, he'll eventually screw up when u turn up the heat on him... the boss was just fulfilling his ego lah...
this type of lan jiao towkay tell him f-spider eat turd lah... economy good no one will work for him one.
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“On entry into the medical faculty IS by itself a BOND”…? (Posted by CX)
Are you saying that for an undergraduate on entering the Medical Faculty, there will be an automatic “Bond” - as if though a scholarship has been awarded?
This is new info.
Please read my paragraph, which states that “unlike doctors, lawyers, and architects, there is no requirement of serving a period of internship after getting the first certified qualification AS AN ENGINEER.”
The industrial attachment of an undergraduate Engineer is too short a duration, and cannot be compared to the duration experienced by a lawyer going through pupilage before a bar exam, and doctors having to serve an internship and the student architect being subject to a long course that would include long term practical attachment to an architectural firm.
For an Engineer, it is not only learning the corporate culture of his place of employment after graduation, but also learning the entire business from scratch.
Many engineers that I have met, confirmed that only about TEN Percent of their tertiary training would ever be recalled for practical application.
Much depends on learning the product or processes on-the-job; and using oneÂ’s own I.Q., initiative, mature observation, and pure logical thought process.
Pay increment may not always happen upon confirmation after a probationary period.
This is a misconception on the part of many new employees.
Unless otherwise stated in a Letter of Probationary Appointment, the Employer may not necessarily have to increase the probationary pay on confirmation.
Another point of misconception is that all workers are entitled to Fourteen Days annual leave, and Twenty-One Days upon completion of ten year service. There is no such labor law in Singapore, which only confirm that an employee is entitled to seven working days of leave annually, with full pay.
On the point of Petroleum Companies, not all workers are highly technically qualified to qualify for the high salary paid by Petroleum Companies.
The Accounts Clerks in a Petroleum Company are known to be better paid when compared to their peers in other sectors of the economy.
For the same jobs done in other sectors of the economy, the Petroleum Company will pay twice or three times as much as other companies, even bonuses are paid three to four times more.
This is due to the high turnover and high profit margins that the Petroleum Company is able to achieve from an essential commodity sold to the public.
Not all small companies are necessarily profitable.
Some remain small, due to their lack of capital, and due to the product type handles, which has a limited niche market that affect the size of turnover or volume of sales value.
Certainly, it is not correct that a Local Company should treat its Employees any worse.
Then again, it is an open market of Supply and Demand of a limited pool of labor. If one is dissatisfied with the work environment, one can always pack up and leave.
Every job experience can only count as an additional skill and knowledge to one’s “experience quotient”, and will add to one’s marketable value. -
~ its called 'housemanship' and entry into the medical faculty IS by itself a BOND... ~
Actually to clarify, housemanship = hands-on b4 graduation
There is actually an "internship" after graduation during which u will be placed under a "medical mentor" and learn the work prior to choosing your eventual field.
As to interviews being the "last line of defence" for employers, this is definitely true.
While paper grades go to some extent to getting ur "place in line" for an interview, the real test is when u sit in front of a panel responding to intensive questioning and scrutiny to determine if u're the best man for the job.
If a company cannot be sure of ur qualities, then they should, ethically, decline to hire u instead of raising ur false hopes with a contract. To select u means they have placed their faith in u and that should never be mis-placed. -
Yes this is true.Originally posted by Atobe:Are you saying that for an undergraduate on entering the Medical Faculty, there will be an automatic “Bond” - as if though a scholarship has been awarded?
This law to some extent has been updated. As to wat are the specifics now i cannot say. The last company i worked with only offered 10 days annual leave for the first year followed by 1 additional day after every 2 years employment to a maximum of 14 days (The company concerned cannot be named for obvious reasons)Another point of misconception is that all workers are entitled to Fourteen Days annual leave, and Twenty-One Days upon completion of ten year service. There is no such labor law in Singapore, which only confirm that an employee is entitled to seven working days of leave annually, with full pay.
There was no 21 day annual leave offer even after the 10 year mark.
So it's pretty clear that there are exceptions to the rule. And while it may be written in black and white, there are companies which have bent (not broken) the rules. -
Atobe,
i find that u're just nit-picking... well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but i wonder how YOU would like it if u're not offered a job commensurate with your qualifications.
what i'm essentially against is not the fact that graduates should start at the bottom (in fact, i think its only right) but that some employers are being plain arseholes in this respect.
its not about form, but intent. and this looks to me like a case of rather spastic intent. -
My apologies, CX, if I showed myself to be "nit picking" in my comments; as I wanted to be quite specific in understanding the problem and respond to the few issues that seemed to be mixed and cross-related; and at the same time to clear up some misconcieved notions about the employment "expectations".Originally posted by CX:Atobe,
i find that u're just nit-picking... well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions of course, but i wonder how YOU would like it if u're not offered a job commensurate with your qualifications.
what i'm essentially against is not the fact that graduates should start at the bottom (in fact, i think its only right) but that some employers are being plain arseholes in this respect.
its not about form, but intent. and this looks to me like a case of rather spastic intent.
You are certainly correct in that there are employers who take advantage of the present economic situation to "under-employ" a person of "certified ability" - as in the case of a Graduate who was employed to BBQ "Ba Kua".
Can you blame this "Ba Kua" Employer for employing that Graduate to perform a job such as this?
As mentioned, the job market is a Supply and Demand situation, not quite perfect.
If one is not limited to the "Singapore box", and if we have the opportunity of "Thinking Out of this Box", we could venture further a field, and break this unfavorable "Supply and Demand" situation that is weighing in favor of Employers. -
Thanks for your clearing up the situation, but just to confirm my understanding is correctly placed.Originally posted by BillyBong:~ its called 'housemanship' and entry into the medical faculty IS by itself a BOND... ~
Actually to clarify, housemanship = hands-on b4 graduation
You indicated that "entry into the medical faculty IS by itself a BOND"; and this is quite similar to the previous post by CX too, which I had also queried.
By this statement, do you mean that entering the medical profession, and being admitted into the Medical Faculty, one is automatically "BONDED" to the profession and its ethics..?
Or do you mean that there is a "WRITTEN CONTRACTURAL BOND", as one would expect from a scholarship, to serve a period of time, to repay society for the cost of funds used under the scholarship...?