do u think singaporean should go to malaysia to shop???
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Ya Loh ! Me also shifting my biz focus on HK & China most my customers hv shifted there alrdy. What to do - can't wait to die must do something at least - so now preparing hard to set up in HK.Originally posted by CloneMe72:Singapore will always have to rely in other country's so-called generosity because of a single fact that will never crease to change... we do not have natural resources of our own.
We are depending on the service we provide in order to survive in this world. By not helping to come out with ways to lower our labour cost or service cost, we are not commercially viable.
Look at the number of manufacturing moving out of Singapore once they had developed or fine-tuned the manufacturing technology.
After hearing PM Goh's speech a couple of days ago, it has confirmed my thoughts on our country's economy... downhill without a foreseeable path of recovery if we continued on our current policies. -
y not???
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The truth will never be known, but do not be surprised to find out that most of the shops at all the gleaming shopping centres in Johor Baru are actually owned by Singaporeans.
Boycott shopping in Johor Baru, is almost like hitting one's own feet with a stick just so to kill the ant.
Leave politics and national pride aside, and take a hard look at economics of your shrinking salary.
Buy more from NTUC supermarkets, and enriched its coffers to allow it to build a mega-million dollar super skyscraper in downtown Singapore ?
How does this mega-million dollar skyscraper benefit the HDB Heartlander ?
Why pay S$14.00 for a box of detergent in NTUC, when you can buy the same brand and weight of detergent for only Ringgit 14.00 ?
Petrol is subsidized by the Malaysian Government to the tune of 50%, even after paying the toll on both sides of the Causeway, it is still worth the hassle to do one's shopping, wash the car, and top up the tank before returning to Singapore.
Our Singapore GLC's has also invested heavily in Malaysia, to take advantage of the differential cost factors, so what is the hypocrisy about discouraging the consumers practising what the Government is already doing ?
Every day, lorries are streaming into Singapore from Malaysia, carrying vegetables, livestocks, electrical components, raw materials, to support our NTUC Supermarkets, ST Electronics, Intraco, and what other GLCs involved in cross border trade.
All these are then sold to Singaporeans at a much higher price than what we should actually be paying.
The additional costs is to cover for the artificially arranged high costs of property development that supports the Banking System, so as to prevent a bigger collapse when the real value of all assets are marked down.
The cost of wages have been pushed up unrealistically, and now we are stung by the high wage cost that have made us lose our competiveness.
We were told that we will achieve a high living standard comparable to Switzerland, but we were never told about the high cost of living that exist in Switzerland. -
imaginary enemy? You saw the saturday news paper centerfold?
If the government really care for its people, it must help the people who are in need by lowering prices. NOT start a pseudo campaign against an imaginary enemy.
[/b]
On left section it mention Albar saying that Singapore and Malaysia won't go to war over bedra branca etc... as our destinies are tied together etc ...
On right hand section page shows malaysian Astro II missle test with a range of 60/80km.
Tell me this is imaginary. The water is close to boiling. -
To paulho
To me, Malaysia's Army is a credible threat. However, they are more rational than terrorists. If our SAF is spending to deter terrorism, then yes, I agree. But I don't agree on spending on some military stuff that brings intangible results while hundreds are laid off. (with wives, children all hungry)
If our entire SAF deterrence policy is one where we have to have better equipment that the enemy in order to keep the peace, then we will face economic ruin long before the first bullet is fired. Do we need equipment superiority when we already have numerical superority? Are we going to fire the first shot?
The old USSR was not defeated militarily. It went bankrupt trying to match the west. Even if the Malaysians bought whatever, are you now saying that we have no weapons that can counter the threat? Do we still need to have more white elephants?
To me, the threat is economic rather than militarily. My suggestion is to sacrifice some white elephants (the SAF is NOT a white elephant while some of its past and recent purchases are) to use in our economy. With unemployment at 4.9% and rising, we need more jobs and butter rather than guns. Lets turn the swords into plows. -
To eskyzone,
True. But by buy those stuff in spore, the money flow back to our economy.
There is a limit on what patrotism can do for the average man. Lets talk about essentials.
If you go and buy the Bai-Ling brand luncheon meat, its sold at about $2-$2.50 per can. The American Spam is sold at $3-$4. Both are imported. So if you are rich, you pay like 2x more for a better quality product.
In Malaysia, the Ba-Ling brand is RM3.50. The Spam brand is RM10.50. So the rich pay 3x more than the poor. This is a case where the rich subsidize the poor, as the more expensive stuff carry higher margins there.
For us poorer people, we have to pay$2 over here and Rm3.50 ($1.60) over in Malaysia. That means that the margin for what poor people pay in Singapore is the same as what rich people pay.
While this is fair, this is unkind of the poor people to have to suffer while the richer enjoy. So why can't the poorer people go off to Malaysia and get luncheon meat at cheaper prices in Malaysia? After all, its made in China.
The government never take care of the poor, they must take care of them selves.
We have the same comparison for all products that you use in everyday life, soap, detergent, food, toothpaste, toilet paper. Luxury branded items are more affordable here while BASIC neccessities are more affordable there. And the stuff is imported from china nowadays anyway. So why are the ordinary singaporeans having to subsidize the rich?[/b] -
Originally posted by kenhor:
if u go over just to buy ONE can of luncheon meat, then your time wasted is worth far more than the few cents savings... if u go there to load up and stock up, then u had better be driving in cos its certainly no fun to carry all that stuff on the bus...
To eskyzone,
[b]
True. But by buy those stuff in spore, the money flow back to our economy.
There is a limit on what patrotism can do for the average man. Lets talk about essentials.
If you go and buy the Bai-Ling brand luncheon meat, its sold at about $2-$2.50 per can. The American Spam is sold at $3-$4. Both are imported. So if you are rich, you pay like 2x more for a better quality product.
In Malaysia, the Ba-Ling brand is RM3.50. The Spam brand is RM10.50. So the rich pay 3x more than the poor. This is a case where the rich subsidize the poor, as the more expensive stuff carry higher margins there.
For us poorer people, we have to pay$2 over here and Rm3.50 ($1.60) over in Malaysia. That means that the margin for what poor people pay in Singapore is the same as what rich people pay.
While this is fair, this is unkind of the poor people to have to suffer while the richer enjoy. So why can't the poorer people go off to Malaysia and get luncheon meat at cheaper prices in Malaysia? After all, its made in China.
The government never take care of the poor, they must take care of them selves.
We have the same comparison for all products that you use in everyday life, soap, detergent, food, toothpaste, toilet paper. Luxury branded items are more affordable here while BASIC neccessities are more affordable there. And the stuff is imported from china nowadays anyway. So why are the ordinary singaporeans having to subsidize the rich?[/b][/b]
from my observations, most people who go there to stock up on groceries drive... which means that they're not exactly "poor"... more like middle class looking for a bargain.
so which are u?
middle class, poor, or just plain cheap? -
I am plain cheap
However, with the middle class having cars and being able to take advantage of the savings offered by Malaysia, and with the rich people able to afford the luxury items, the main loser is the poor. Those who can't travel to JB to shop or those "misled" not to shop.
That pork item is just one of the many that we can compare. In fact, made in Malaysia items such as shampoo, soap, toothpaste, toiletpaper will all have greater savings. I don't smoke but I was told that smoking is one of the great savings?
Those are just on everyday household items. Not to mention the food, the petrol, the haircut, car service, car wash, clothes, stationery, medicine, drinks are all cheaper. Its easily a SAVINGS of $100 per car load of people per trip. (some even more) I have gone to Malacca for a weekend and that action packed trip is about $300 cheaper than a weekend in Singapore. But lets just use the $100 number for now.
Assuming that we can go 2 times a month, that is $200 per month worth of PURE SAVINGS. So assuming the middle class gets a take home salary of $4k per month, thats 5% of the take home pay. Very significant.
Our leadership plainly say that their million dollar salaries are only a few plates of char koay teow. Well $200 per month is close to 50+ plate of char koay teow. I am sorry, but I am not willing to be patriotic over that many plates. -
I am willing to be patriotic no matter how many plates it is, 'nuff said
Any one heard of the star fish story
Well, everyone can make a difference
-
If NTUC can afford to spend mega-millions to build the spanking new super skyscraper that will be called NTUC Towers, that only benefit the Million-Dollar Salaried NTUC Officials, why isn't the same amount being spent to help the unemployed, destitutes, homeless, aged, and others ?
That amount of money spent could have been used to lower health care costs, medical expenses, kidney dialysis, homes for the aged, and hospices for the homeless aged.
Is there a need for another ivory tower to house another "Minister", and this time a "Minister without any Portfolio", and the other million dollar salaried NTUC Officials ?
The large amount of money accumulated from the various trading activities of the NTUC - (in supermarkets, insurance, pharmacy, health care, taxi service, automobile workshops, country clubs, housing developments, and other activities missed out here; undertaker services??) - was supposed to have benefitted the working class.
These activities end up accumulating profits from its multi-facetted activities, which end up in a spanking new sky scraper, instead of being returned to the various NTUC members with higher dividends paid out.
In the current difficult times, (when everyone has been asked to tighten their belts, wages are reduced, workers retrenched and asked to be retrained while more unemployed get into the growing pool of unemployed, and with the PM warning of worst to be expected), it is difficult to understand how such a project will end up benefitting the average person on the street, let alone an ordinary NTUC Member. -
one look at your statement... and viola... we see someone who cant understand the greater mechanics of economics....Originally posted by Atobe:If NTUC can afford to spend mega-millions to build the spanking new super skyscraper that will be called NTUC Towers, that only benefit the Million-Dollar Salaried NTUC Officials, why isn't the same amount being spent to help the unemployed, destitutes, homeless, aged, and others ?
That amount of money spent could have been used to lower health care costs, medical expenses, kidney dialysis, homes for the aged, and hospices for the homeless aged.
Is there a need for another ivory tower to house another "Minister", and this time a "Minister without any Portfolio", and the other million dollar salaried NTUC Officials ?
The large amount of money accumulated from the various trading activities of the NTUC - (in supermarkets, insurance, pharmacy, health care, taxi service, automobile workshops, country clubs, housing developments, and other activities missed out here; undertaker services??) - was supposed to have benefitted the working class.
These activities end up accumulating profits from its multi-facetted activities, which end up in a spanking new sky scraper, instead of being returned to the various NTUC members with higher dividends paid out.
In the current difficult times, (when everyone has been asked to tighten their belts, wages are reduced, workers retrenched and asked to be retrained while more unemployed get into the growing pool of unemployed, and with the PM warning of worst to be expected), it is difficult to understand how such a project will end up benefitting the average person on the street, let alone an ordinary NTUC Member.
the construction of a new tower (if true , cos i havent heard of it) would help the already strickened construction industry... and would aid in providing jobs to tens of thoudsands of people from all walks of life through ripple effect.... its similar to a form of FDI or a govt fiscal expansion in times of economic downturn... a keynesian approach..
under a keynesian approach... the economic model calls for increased govt expenditure to increase demands for goods and service from the market, leading to creation of jobs which raises income and ultimately returns to govt coffers in the form of increase taxations due to higher consumption and investments...
which is why... if you all seen the interview with DPM... some actually ask him, if his budget deficit could be larger... implying a greater govt expenditure to boost market demand for goods and services.. to create jobs and investments...
furthermore... with the economic depression now... building a tower would be alot cheaper then trying to build one in boom time when everything prices goes up...
lastly... if the money is spread around... it wont amount much per individual as the money is spread over a huge number of people... so much so... you wont feel a thing... and the money goes out.. and wont come back...
But if the tower is compeleted... it would result in returns in the forms of rents or other fees.... -
Tens of Thousands of Jobs ?Originally posted by tripwire:one look at your statement... and viola... we see someone who cant understand the greater mechanics of economics....
the construction of a new tower (if true , cos i havent heard of it) would help the already strickened construction industry... and would aid in providing jobs to tens of thoudsands of people from all walks of life through ripple effect.... its similar to a form of FDI or a govt fiscal expansion in times of economic downturn... a keynesian approach..
under a keynesian approach... the economic model calls for increased govt expenditure to increase demands for goods and service from the market, leading to creation of jobs which raises income and ultimately returns to govt coffers in the form of increase taxations due to higher consumption and investments...
which is why... if you all seen the interview with DPM... some actually ask him, if his budget deficit could be larger... implying a greater govt expenditure to boost market demand for goods and services.. to create jobs and investments...
furthermore... with the economic depression now... building a tower would be alot cheaper then trying to build one in boom time when everything prices goes up...
lastly... if the money is spread around... it wont amount much per individual as the money is spread over a huge number of people... so much so... you wont feel a thing... and the money goes out.. and wont come back...
But if the tower is compeleted... it would result in returns in the forms of rents or other fees....
Dream on friend.
How many are actually Singaporeans employed in the Construction Industry ?
The Main Contractor for this project is a foreign company, employing all foreign heads of departments, with perhaps seventy percent (?) of its full time staff strength of 500 being Singaporeans - not counting the sub-contractors and part-timers.
The beneficiaryies will be probably the local middle-men with agencies for products that are manufactured overseas.
Multiplier effect (?) sure it generate alot of money into the hands of the few that are involved with this project, and with the hard times being felt, a major portion will probably end up as savings.
At the end of the day, you get a gleaming - this time, a truly - White Elephant of a massive Sky Scraper, built with the contributions of Singaporeans supporting NTUC's many multi-facetted businesses.
Those funds could have gone back to the various NTUC Members as dividends, that would have served as a BIGGER MULTIPLIER that will DIRECTLY benefit Singaporeans; and with IMMEDIATE effect.
How does this "white elephant" benefit the HDB Heartlander ?
You believe in the jabbering "know-all" talk of the DPM ?
Who are both of you kidding that when the money that goes out benefit a few, and will not benefit many ?
Try harder and maybe you can convince those that live in the zoo.
How much has the Singapore Shares benefit anyone in any major way ? With payouts of approximately $300 per person for the whole year ? Is that suppose to have helped anyone in a major way ?
Will the amount that go into the hands of those lesser few that participate in this NTUC White Elephant Project, end up in the hands of the bigger majority of the Singapore Population ?
Quote from post by tripwire:
"But if the tower is compeleted... it would result in returns in the forms of rents or other fees...."
Will this go into the pockets of the NTUC Members or the HDB Heartlander ? Will it reduce membership fees, or the prices of the goods and services offered by the various NTUC commercial activities ? -
To atobe
The only way you are going to convince them is to list all the costs and who pockets the money. Let me start
a) Construction workers - mainly FW .. so already huge outflow of S$ to China, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Thailand and Myanmar
b) Cement - Malaysia and Indonesia
c) Steel - Japan?
Lets all write down what will Singaporean's benefit out of the construction of the building. -
Originally posted by Atobe:
from your points i raised the following observation:...
Tens of Thousands of Jobs ?
Dream on friend.
How many are actually Singaporeans employed in the Construction Industry ?
The Main Contractor for this project is a foreign company, employing all foreign heads of departments, with perhaps seventy percent (?) of its full time staff strength of 500 being Singaporeans - not counting the sub-contractors and part-timers.
The beneficiaryies will be probably the local middle-men with agencies for products that are manufactured overseas.
Multiplier effect (?) sure it generate alot of money into the hands of the few that are involved with this project, and with the hard times being felt, a major portion will probably end up as savings.
At the end of the day, you get a gleaming - this time, a truly - White Elephant of a massive Sky Scraper, built with the contributions of Singaporeans supporting NTUC's many multi-facetted businesses.
Those funds could have gone back to the various NTUC Members as dividends, that would have served as a BIGGER MULTIPLIER that will DIRECTLY benefit Singaporeans; and with IMMEDIATE effect.
How does this "white elephant" benefit the HDB Heartlander ?
You believe in the jabbering "know-all" talk of the DPM ?
Who are both of you kidding that when the money that goes out benefit a few, and will not benefit many ?
Try harder and maybe you can convince those that live in the zoo.
How much has the Singapore Shares benefit anyone in any major way ? With payouts of approximately $300 per person for the whole year ? Is that suppose to have helped anyone in a major way ?
Will the amount that go into the hands of those lesser few that participate in this NTUC White Elephant Project, end up in the hands of the bigger majority of the Singapore Population ?
Quote from post by tripwire:
"[b]But if the tower is compeleted... it would result in returns in the forms of rents or other fees...."
Will this go into the pockets of the NTUC Members or the HDB Heartlander ? Will it reduce membership fees, or the prices of the goods and services offered by the various NTUC commercial activities ?
[/b]
you are a very bad economist... or a very good development (read bullshiting) economist....
you want protectionism, you want local companies be given first bite at the pie.. and your tones is distinctly nationalistic like the development economist (especially the bunch of buffoon idiots from london school of economics)
you believe in giving ikan bilis to poor people.. instead of providing the poor with a fish net to catch their own fish... a mirror of the british welfare system...
you failed to realise your own contradiction... where you deem it is good policy to give money to NTUC members as dividends (a very small dividen) while at the same time questions the value of such disbursement from the govt in the form of NSS and ERS... which is far larger in amount....
you also failed to realise your second contradiction... where you believe that the lost in consumer confidence would erode consumer spending, therefore money disbursed in the form of NSS or ERS having little impact on singapore wellbeing...
yet at the same time you believed that if the NTUC disburse more dividend to the general populace.. it will result as in your own words.."that would have served as a BIGGER MULTIPLIER that will DIRECTLY benefit Singaporeans; and with IMMEDIATE effect.".. how can it be so... when consumer spending is going down??
lastly... it must be noted that NTUC is only viable as a entity if it continue to have a positive bottom line... NTUC is not the govt's welfare department..
ITs aim is to control uncontrolled martket profiteering by unscrupulous buissnessman by offering quality product at a benchmark price... while not squeezing out local retail buissness... -
i think you are nuts... you might as well stop eating because the food is from oversea... and you better learn how to drink concrete.. cos alot of our water is also from malaysia...Originally posted by kenhor:To atobe
The only way you are going to convince them is to list all the costs and who pockets the money. Let me start
a) Construction workers - mainly FW .. so already huge outflow of S$ to China, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Thailand and Myanmar
foreign workers in singapore requires services such as banking (to remit money), transport (get to work), food and water (obvious), lodging (you dont find them sleeping on the streets...) recreation (not everyone sits infront of PC for recreation) spiritual needs (temples, church and mosque) they are as human as you are... and their presence increase local economic activity just as locals... and they pay a big tax also... a foreign maids levy is almost 40 percent of their pay!! furthermore... their presence lowers labour cost and makes many industries viable in singapore that would also employ locals in high paying jobs.... lastly... the outflow of SIN dollar while significant.. the foreign workers contribution to local economy is just as significant... its foolish to think that the govt would not have seen it...
b) Cement - Malaysia and Indonesia .... we are a resource poor nation... wat do you want?? invade malaysia??
c) Steel - Japan? ... and wat is wrong with that??
Lets all write down what will Singaporean's benefit out of the construction of the building. -
Does it make you an Master Economist if I am a "bullshitting" one ?Originally posted by tripwire:from your points i raised the following observation:...
you are a very bad economist... or a very good development (read bullshiting) economist....
Did I make any hint that I want protectionism and first bite at the pie? You are reading more into my posts and seem to delight into tearing yourself blindly into any posts in this sgForum.Originally posted by tripwire:you want protectionism, you want local companies be given first bite at the pie.. and your tones is distinctly nationalistic like the development economist (especially the bunch of buffoon idiots from london school of economics)
Read my post again, which is challenging your post that building the NTUC White Elephant of an Ivory Tower will have a "keynsian economic benefit" for Singaporeans.
How did you arrive at this conclusion that end with a familiar cliche that seems to show you being bred like ikan bilis from years of propaganda in Singapore ?
you believe in giving ikan bilis to poor people.. instead of providing the poor with a fish net to catch their own fish... a mirror of the british welfare system...
The ERS and SSS was a meagre handout by the Government to Singaporeans, who displayed a lack of confidence to hang on to these shares (and seemingly Singapore's future), or that they are in desperate need for the few miserable hundreds of dollars handed out by the Government (to last a whole year ?).
you failed to realise your own contradiction... where you deem it is good policy to give money to NTUC members as dividends (a very small dividen) while at the same time questions the value of such disbursement from the govt in the form of NSS and ERS... which is far larger in amount....
you also failed to realise your second contradiction... where you believe that the lost in consumer confidence would erode consumer spending, therefore money disbursed in the form of NSS or ERS having little impact on singapore wellbeing...
yet at the same time you believed that if the NTUC disburse more dividend to the general populace.. it will result as in your own words.."that would have served as a BIGGER MULTIPLIER that will DIRECTLY benefit Singaporeans; and with IMMEDIATE effect.".. how can it be so... when consumer spending is going down??
This is evident, as shown by the huge numbers of cashing out almost immediately upon receiving these ERS and SSS.
How much do you think the NTUC White Elephant that is presently under construction would draw on the NTUC kitty ?
S$80 million? S$180million ? or S$800 million ?
What is the number of NTUC Card Membership - counting Trade Union Memberships (400,000 at the last count, I believe), SuperMarket Card Members, Insurance Policy Holders, NTUC Cabbie Drivers ? Some with cross memberships, so no numbers offered.
If the amount spent on the White Elephant is distributed to the limited number of NTUC Card Members, do you figure the amount to be more substantive then the meagre amount paid out for ERS and SSS to more then FIFTY Percent of the 4.5 million Singapore Citizens that make up the working population of Singaore ?
Will this not create a bigger confidence in the consumers spending more, knowing that they will get back even more from dividends paid back ?
Is NTUC now also made out to be a PROFIT CENTER too?
lastly... it must be noted that NTUC is only viable as a entity if it continue to have a positive bottom line... NTUC is not the govt's welfare department..
Should it be answerable to itself, or to its members that it had originally set out to serve ?
It has certainly achieved its primary goal "to control uncontrolled market profiteering by unscrupulous buisnessman"; but it has replaced those "unscrupulous businessman" with itself, allowing it join forces with Up-Market Operators from the US, so as to enter the Up-Market SuperMarket League.
ITs aim is to control uncontrolled martket profiteering by unscrupulous buissnessman by offering quality product at a benchmark price... while not squeezing out local retail buissness...
"NTUC operate without "squeezing out local retail buissness ?"
Where did you learn to make this observation ?
You must have been fed with too much propaganda, or you must have been so unexposed to the real world while cloistered in the world of academia ?
No wonder there is so much to be worried with the next generation who dislike history, and forget about the events of the past.
In a recent telecast of a BBC programme, the students of several Russian Universities have praised Stalin as a Hero of Soviet Russia, without even knowing of the large numbers sent into gulags in Siberia, the mass execution and witch hunts, the tortures and extraction of false confession for crimes against the State, the incarceration without trials of individuals based on the charges of a luminaire.
This is what changes can happen to the same historical events, with the sea change of just two generations.
So much for your superb observation in taking "one look at your statement... and viola... we see someone who cant understand the greater mechanics of economics...." -
Quote from post by tripwire:
____________________________________________________
the construction of a new tower (if true , cos i havent heard of it
____________________________________________________
Go down to Cliffor Pier, next to what used to be Neptune Theatre, or opposite the Asia Insurance Building - both are ancient buildings (one from the 60's and the latter one from the early 50's.
Construction activities have already started, with a huge bill board advertising the massive ego building project that is now under way. -
Does it make you an Master Economist if I am a "bull^&$^ting" one ? nope... but a development economist is a bullshiting economist even if they carry the PHD title...
Did I make any hint that I want protectionism and first bite at the pie? You are reading more into my posts and seem to delight into tearing yourself blindly into any posts in this sgForum. read your own post again... you seems pretty upset that the project was handled by a foreign firm which as you said...employ many foreigners... and probably benefit merely a few hundred locals... did you not?? i mean... why did you bring up the point about foreign firm and foreign products plus foreign workers... if you have no prejudice about foreign?? technically.. if you believe in economic efficiency... you would not have brought up the point at all....
Read my post again, which is challenging your post that building the NTUC White Elephant of an Ivory Tower will have a "keynsian economic benefit" for Singaporeans. i have read... and i must say... surely the NTUC knows the cost of building a white elephant and would have done their maths prior to the construction... and obviously... unlike you.. they do not discriminate foreign and local firms, products or workers but.. economic efficiency.. as such... i believe that they build the building on the ground or expectation of future earnings.. else... it will be really really stupid to spend so much money, then make loses and finally be branded a white elephant... understandably... you might have also jump the gun as well... the building aint up... the bottom lines have yet to be seen... the returns have yet to be ascertain... but you have already decided to call it a white elephant...wat if the NTUC building eventually prove to be a good investment with significant return?? as for the keynesian effect of the building... its quite simple... the ultimate aim is to increase investment, consumption and govt expenditure to spur the demand for goods and services that would lead to an expansion of the economy... creating jobs and more demand...
How did you arrive at this conclusion that end with a familiar cliche that seems to show you being bred like ikan bilis from years of propaganda in Singapore ? the conclusion is clear... you want the govt or the GLCs to provide unemployment relief in one form or the other... and you want more.... as you lament the patry sums in NSS and ERS...
The ERS and SSS was a meagre handout by the Government to Singaporeans, who displayed a lack of confidence to hang on to these shares (and seemingly Singapore's future), or that they are in desperate need for the few miserable hundreds of dollars handed out by the Government (to last a whole year ?).
This is evident, as shown by the huge numbers of cashing out almost immediately upon receiving these ERS and SSS. it is difficult to generalise why a substantial percentage of people decided to cash the checks... but i would think that the return is miserable is one factor... 
i kept my NSS shares... and when i look at the return... i cash it the next day.. and as you said.. the handout is meagre and could not last a whole year... so here begs the question... how to last the whole year? personally i think the ERS and NSS is completely misguided... they should have just divert all these funds to a unemployment fund which help to feed poor families as well as help them to find new jobs...
How much do you think the NTUC White Elephant that is presently under construction would draw on the NTUC kitty ?
S$80 million? S$180million ? or S$800 million ?
What is the number of NTUC Card Membership - counting Trade Union Memberships (400,000 at the last count, I believe), SuperMarket Card Members, Insurance Policy Holders, NTUC Cabbie Drivers ? Some with cross memberships, so no numbers offered.
If the amount spent on the White Elephant is distributed to the limited number of NTUC Card Members, do you figure the amount to be more substantive then the meagre amount paid out for ERS and SSS to more then FIFTY Percent of the 4.5 million Singapore Citizens that make up the working population of Singaore ? it wont amount much... the govt ERS and NSS runs into the billions and is given to all adults...(which are generally all working) which might be slightly higher in numbers then the NTUC membership... secondly... the disbursement of this funds... while would benefit much of the people... its only a temporary relief and will break the kitty eventually... its not gonna save the day... wat is more important is not to seek or demand handouts... but to help provide jobs...
Will this not create a bigger confidence in the consumers spending more, knowing that they will get back even more from dividends paid back ? yours is a naive thought.... even if more dividens are paid back... the key is people dont spend because of economic uncertainty, and its far cheaper to buy in JB so ...dont bull... lah... the govt NSS and ERS didnt boost confidence as fast as all the bad news is hammering the confidence into the ground... the only way to boost confidence is to provide full employment...
Is NTUC now also made out to be a PROFIT CENTER too?
Should it be answerable to itself, or to its members that it had originally set out to serve ? it is... but if it goes into the red... who is gonna save NTUC?
It has certainly achieved its primary goal "to control uncontrolled market profiteering by unscrupulous buisnessman"; but it has replaced those "unscrupulous businessman" with itself, allowing it join forces with Up-Market Operators from the US, so as to enter the Up-Market SuperMarket League.
"NTUC operate without "squeezing out local retail buissness ?"
Where did you learn to make this observation ?
You must have been fed with too much propaganda, or you must have been so unexposed to the real world while cloistered in the world of academia ?
No wonder there is so much to be worried with the next generation who dislike history, and forget about the events of the past. they fact remains that ... if no NTUC... then prices could easily spiral out of control... if NTUC becomes as profiteering as other firms... then PAP is gonna carry the black wok..
In a recent telecast of a BBC programme, the students of several Russian Universities have praised Stalin as a Hero of Soviet Russia, without even knowing of the large numbers sent into gulags in Siberia, the mass execution and witch hunts, the tortures and extraction of false confession for crimes against the State, the incarceration without trials of individuals based on the charges of a luminaire.
This is what changes can happen to the same historical events, with the sea change of just two generations. irrelevant observation....
So much for your superb observation in taking "one look at your statement... and viola... we see someone who cant understand the greater mechanics of economics...." you still dont... -
Are you then a Master Economist to exercise your esteemed theories of keynsian effects of the NTUC development to the Singapore economy, as in your previous posting suggested ?Originally posted by tripwire:Does it make you an Master Economist if I am a "bull^&$^ting" one ? nope... but a development economist is a bullshiting economist even if they carry the PHD title...
I can't help you there, if your superb observation skill prefer your vision to see things in your own perspective of being a Grand Disciple of your preferred way of interpretating "Keynsian Economics"
Did I make any hint that I want protectionism and first bite at the pie? You are reading more into my posts and seem to delight into tearing yourself blindly into any posts in this sgForum. read your own post again... you seems pretty upset that the project was handled by a foreign firm which as you said...employ many foreigners... and probably benefit merely a few hundred locals... did you not?? i mean... why did you bring up the point about foreign firm and foreign products plus foreign workers... if you have no prejudice about foreign?? technically.. if you believe in economic efficiency... you would not have brought up the point at all....[/quote]
Here lies the problem that you have created in your head-on rush to give your critque, by preferring to read more then what my writing clearly spelled out.
In your earlier post, you mentioned your expert "keysian effect" of an investment such as this NTUC White Elephant can have; and I had merely indicated how wrong you can be, as the major beneficiary of such an construction venture will largely benefit foreigners more then Singaporeans.
Me upset about Foreigners taking more jobs ? Did I hint of envy or anger - some rude words from me ?
Your 3 replies missed the point of my original post completely, which I have explained in the preceding reply; and you did or could not respond to my query as to how such an investment of mega-million proportion can directly benefit the HDB Heartlander in this hard times, when NTUC was originally set up to service the Blue Collar Workers (and subsequently the White Collar as well, and now the Middle Executives)
Read my post again, which is challenging your post that building the NTUC White Elephant of an Ivory Tower will have a "keynsian economic benefit" for Singaporeans. i have read... and i must say... surely the NTUC knows the cost of building a white elephant and would have done their maths prior to the construction... and obviously... unlike you.. they do not discriminate foreign and local firms, products or workers but.. economic efficiency.. as such... i believe that they build the building on the ground or expectation of future earnings.. else... it will be really really stupid to spend so much money, then make loses and finally be branded a white elephant... understandably... you might have also jump the gun as well... the building aint up... the bottom lines have yet to be seen... the returns have yet to be ascertain... but you have already decided to call it a white elephant...wat if the NTUC building eventually prove to be a good investment with significant return?? as for the keynesian effect of the building... its quite simple... the ultimate aim is to increase investment, consumption and govt expenditure to spur the demand for goods and services that would lead to an expansion of the economy... creating jobs and more demand...
Is this the best counter you can offer to the weak point that I have exposed in your stated observation of "ikan bilis" ?
How did you arrive at this conclusion that end with a familiar cliche that seems to show you being bred like ikan bilis from years of propaganda in Singapore ? the conclusion is clear... you want the govt or the GLCs to provide unemployment relief in one form or the other... and you want more.... as you lament the patry sums in NSS and ERS...
From the many conversation that I had with all that I come across with, the honest statement was that "why should I keep these shares, as one will not know what the fickle Government will do next, and what the future will be ? Might as well take what is available now then lose everything tomorrow"
The ERS and SSS was a meagre handout by the Government to Singaporeans, who displayed a lack of confidence to hang on to these shares (and seemingly Singapore's future), or that they are in desperate need for the few miserable hundreds of dollars handed out by the Government (to last a whole year ?).
This is evident, as shown by the huge numbers of cashing out almost immediately upon receiving these ERS and SSS. it is difficult to generalise why a substantial percentage of people decided to cash the checks... but i would think that the return is miserable is one factor... i kept my NSS shares... and when i look at the return... i cash it the next day.. and as you said.. the handout is meagre and could not last a whole year... so here begs the question... how to last the whole year? personally i think the ERS and NSS is completely misguided... they should have just divert all these funds to a unemployment fund which help to feed poor families as well as help them to find new jobs...
Well, at least you are honest enough to concede that the ERS and SSS scheme is midguided besides being paltry, and that the funds could have been put to better use.
BTW I have kept all my ERS and SSS shares, as the sums are so paltry that it is not worth my effort even to think about it.
Billions of Dollars ? When the CPF account holders number about Two Thirds of the Population of 4.5 million; and the average payout is only about $400 per head ? Each hand out is only about $2 billion, and not BILLIONS of Dollars.
How much do you think the NTUC White Elephant that is presently under construction would draw on the NTUC kitty ?
S$80 million? S$180million ? or S$800 million ?
What is the number of NTUC Card Membership - counting Trade Union Memberships (400,000 at the last count, I believe), SuperMarket Card Members, Insurance Policy Holders, NTUC Cabbie Drivers ? Some with cross memberships, so no numbers offered.
If the amount spent on the White Elephant is distributed to the limited number of NTUC Card Members, do you figure the amount to be more substantive then the meagre amount paid out for ERS and SSS to more then FIFTY Percent of the 4.5 million Singapore Citizens that make up the working population of Singaore ? it wont amount much... the govt ERS and NSS runs into the billions and is given to all adults...(which are generally all working) which might be slightly higher in numbers then the NTUC membership... secondly... the disbursement of this funds... while would benefit much of the people... its only a temporary relief and will break the kitty eventually... its not gonna save the day... wat is more important is not to seek or demand handouts... but to help provide jobs...
Imagine if the $80 Million or $180 Million or $800 Million spent on the NTUC White Elephant is handed back to the 600,000 to 800,000 odd members, the dividend per head would have been more directly beneficial to Singaporeans, and more penetrating to the Singapore economy at large (speculative numbers which could be smaller, resulting in bigger dividend per head).
Here is your "keysian economics" put into effective application.
What happened to your "keynsian theory" that expounded the theory about confidence level being primed by the multiplier effect of public disbursement ? What happened to your "keynsian theory" for spending on the NTUC White Elephant ?
Will this not create a bigger confidence in the consumers spending more, knowing that they will get back even more from dividends paid back ? yours is a naive thought.... even if more dividens are paid back... the key is people dont spend because of economic uncertainty, and its far cheaper to buy in JB so ...dont bull... lah... the govt NSS and ERS didnt boost confidence as fast as all the bad news is hammering the confidence into the ground... the only way to boost confidence is to provide full employment...
Why should it go into the red, when it had shown its expertise in generating so much funds that are not returned to the shareholders and members; and without the general consensus of the members and shareholders, the money is spent quietly on a White Elephant, which even you did not know about ?
Is NTUC now also made out to be a PROFIT CENTER too?
Should it be answerable to itself, or to its members that it had originally set out to serve ? it is... but if it goes into the red... who is gonna save NTUC?
Why do you not admit it ? That unfortunately, the efficient ruthlessness in NTUC FairPrice expansion strategy has squeezed out the small neighborhood provision stores in Singapore.
It has certainly achieved its primary goal "to control uncontrolled market profiteering by unscrupulous buisnessman"; but it has replaced those "unscrupulous businessman" with itself, allowing it join forces with Up-Market Operators from the US, so as to enter the Up-Market SuperMarket League.
"NTUC operate without "squeezing out local retail buissness ?"
Where did you learn to make this observation ?
You must have been fed with too much propaganda, or you must have been so unexposed to the real world while cloistered in the world of academia ?
No wonder there is so much to be worried with the next generation who dislike history, and forget about the events of the past. they fact remains that ... if no NTUC... then prices could easily spiral out of control... if NTUC becomes as profiteering as other firms... then PAP is gonna carry the black wok..
If the NTUC Supermarket prices of Malaysian goods are double the price of those found in Johor Baru Mega Stores, do you not call this profiteering on NTUC part ?
In a recent telecast of a BBC programme, the students of several Russian Universities have praised Stalin as a Hero of Soviet Russia, without even knowing of the large numbers sent into gulags in Siberia, the mass execution and witch hunts, the tortures and extraction of false confession for crimes against the State, the incarceration without trials of individuals based on the charges of a luminaire.
This is what changes can happen to the same historical events, with the sea change of just two generations. irrelevant observation....Irrelevant ???
I noticed that since your elevation to "Senior Membership" on the anniversary date of your membership in this sgForum, the tone of many of your posts seem to have taken an extra pompous confidence in dealing with most subject matters.
Climb down a notch or two into reality, and try to learn from the recent events passed, or else one will continue to be blinded to the mistakes of what has been done, and risk repeating the same again.
[quote]
So much for your superb observation in taking "one look at your statement... and viola... we see someone who cant understand the greater mechanics of economics...." you still dont... -
Are you then a Master Economist to exercise your esteemed theories of keynsian effects of the NTUC development to the Singapore economy, as in your previous posting suggested ? why are you so interested if i have a PHD or MSc in economics?? does my title affect how NTUC investment have on singapore economy
or do you imply that unless that i have to be a MSc or PHD to be qualified to give my views on economics?? 
Here lies the problem that you have created in your head-on rush to give your critque, by preferring to read more then what my writing clearly spelled out. if you have to blame someone... blame yourself for inability to express yourself correctly and and with foresight.... afterall... the message is in the eye of the perciever... furthermore... i think that you are far more nationalistic then economistic..
In your earlier post, you mentioned your expert "keysian effect" of an investment such as this NTUC White Elephant can have; and I had merely indicated how wrong you can be, as the major beneficiary of such an construction venture will largely benefit foreigners more then Singaporeans. which i have replied to kenhor post... how such an investment can also led to much benefits in many local economy and singaporeans.. ... furthermore... singapore is an open economy... its close to impossible to keep the money in the local economy as there are simply too many leaks... the best that can be done.. is to bring in more money then those that leaked out....
Me upset about Foreigners taking more jobs ? Did I hint of envy or anger - some rude words from me ? i find your desire to protect locals over foreigns as a part of the development economist belieft... which are not only nationalistic but protectionist as well...
Your 3 replies missed the point of my original post completely, which I have explained in the preceding reply; and you did or could not respond to my query as to how such an investment of mega-million proportion can directly benefit the HDB Heartlander in this hard times, when NTUC was originally set up to service the Blue Collar Workers (and subsequently the White Collar as well, and now the Middle Executives) my 3 replies did not missed the point.. and answered your query straight on... just that... perhaps you are too thick to understand... or you prefer not to understand it.. so as to keep your position....
Is this the best counter you can offer to the weak point that I have exposed in your stated observation of "ikan bilis" ? do you deny that you feel that the govt's assistance is too little and would like to see more or seek more??
From the many conversation that I had with all that I come across with, the honest statement was that "why should I keep these shares, as one will not know what the fickle Government will do next, and what the future will be ? Might as well take what is available now then lose everything tomorrow" that is too generalised a conclusion... which i find its whitewashing... as not all human think alike...face the same situation and in the same circumstance...
Well, at least you are honest enough to concede that the ERS and SSS scheme is midguided besides being paltry, and that the funds could have been put to better use. i percieve the current economic crisis as a golden opportunity for the govt to show its concern for its citizens... a proper system could have been instituted to grant help to all needy singaporeans... unfortunately... this topic is departing from the original topic... and yes... i think the govt... is too economistic an animal this time round...
BTW I have kept all my ERS and SSS shares, as the sums are so paltry that it is not worth my effort even to think about it. if you dont need it... please donate it to the community chest....
Billions of Dollars ? When the CPF account holders number about Two Thirds of the Population of 4.5 million; and the average payout is only about $400 per head ? Each hand out is only about $2 billion, and not BILLIONS of Dollars. its not the money amount that i am really concerned... although i must say ... your calculations appears too low... i wonder why .. i am more interested in the proper allocation of the fund... to achieve max return, benefit and utility... as such... i have some misgiving about how this amount has been disbursed....
Imagine if the $80 Million or $180 Million or $800 Million spent on the NTUC White Elephant is handed back to the 600,000 to 800,000 odd members, the dividend per head would have been more directly beneficial to Singaporeans, and more penetrating to the Singapore economy at large (speculative numbers which could be smaller, resulting in bigger dividend per head). me thinks its unfair to put NTUC down when:
1... you dont know the exact amount that NTUC is spending...
2... you dont know how much of the amount is from the NTUC kitty...
3... you dont know how much of the amount might be through loans... from banks...
4... you dont know how many members are really there in NTUC...
5... you dont know the expected returns from this investment...
6... you dont know the potential feed back consumption from a nation wide disbursement of NTUC fund...
7... you dont know how much of this disbursed dividends might outflow to johor...
8... you dont know how much singaporeans will spend with this increase in disposable income...
9... you dont know how much money does NTUC really have and its liquidity...balance sheets and others... furthermore... a disbursement is a one time affair... and its doubtful how a one time disbursement would affect (if any at all) on consumption as consumer knew that there will not be a next disbursement (forward expectation) and might decide to keep the excess income for use over several months... leading to either no increase in consumption spending or leads to outflow to johor which sells at a cheaper price...
Here is your "keysian economics" put into effective application. how?
What happened to your "keynsian theory" that expounded the theory about confidence level being primed by the multiplier effect of public disbursement ? What happened to your "keynsian theory" for spending on the NTUC White Elephant ? please recheck your statement... i believe that the investment would raise demand for goods and services with the potential in helping to raise GDP... providing jobs for many in the economy through ripple effect... aka keynesian effect... as for its effect on overall consumer confidence... that project aint big enough..... its not another MRT project!
Why should it go into the red, when it had shown its expertise in generating so much funds that are not returned to the shareholders and members; and without the general consensus of the members and shareholders, the money is spent quietly on a White Elephant, which even you did not know about ? i think that you are simply illogical... do you have NTUC's balance sheet to back up your claim?? and why cant NTUC conduct an investment for the benefit for all singaporeans as well as for its cooperative?? lastly... how does one spent quietly on an elephant?? invisible elephant??
Why do you not admit it ? That unfortunately, the efficient ruthlessness in NTUC FairPrice expansion strategy has squeezed out the small neighborhood provision stores in Singapore. you very odd leh... on the one hand you think NTUC making obscene profit... yet at the same time you believe that the prices charge by NTUC is killing neighborhood stores... which charge higher then NTUC.... so how come... NTUC can make so much money at low price... while local stores charge higher then NTUC went bust?? isit due to economies of scale?? or simply due to failure to exploit the economic strength or relative advantage?
If the NTUC Supermarket prices of Malaysian goods are double the price of those found in Johor Baru Mega Stores, do you not call this profiteering on NTUC part ? wapiang.... NTUC is in singapore.. pay singapore rent... singapore wages... transport, taxation and many others... you might as well go to the farmer... i think he will charge even lower... based on your last 2 point... i have come to the conclusion... you are not an economist... or a bad economist... or a junior economist who havent touch advance micro and macro economic theories in year 4 economics... in fact.. its more probable you are not an economist..... i deleted the rest from cluttering the topic... no point if i am a senior here.. junior there... nobody everywhere... its a mere title that does not interest me.... i am just a human... that is all.. no need titles or any stupid addressing... -
I think there should not be any restriction to stop anyone going to anyplace to shop under the free trade policy. I personally like to go to malaysia to shop and have fun because it is cheaper and more place of interest. Any thing wrong with that? -
from the way it seems here, i'ld say the answer to that is: it depends who u disagree withOriginally posted by MYPR:I think there should not be any restriction to stop anyone going to anyplace to shop under the free trade policy. I personally like to go to malaysia to shop and have fun because it is cheaper and more place of interest. Any thing wrong with that?
there are compelling reasons to both go and not go... depends on which perspective strikes a chord with u...
what i think is, its quite a contradiction that the needy are not able to gain access to the cost savings available across the causeway but those who can afford it are more than able to do it even though they don't need it
thats why i think its strange when people complain that they need to go JB to shop cos its TOO expensive here
yeah right... got money buy car, no money buy groceries in Sg... -
What a laugh ? With the display of your understanding of keynsian economics, you try to teach others about the "Keynsian effects of the NTUC Project. And now you are missing the point of the original issue posted two days ago. Don't flatter yourself with your assumptions of my post.Originally posted by tripwire:Are you then a Master Economist to exercise your esteemed theories of keynsian effects of the NTUC development to the Singapore economy, as in your previous posting suggested ? why are you so interested if i have a PHD or MSc in economics?? does my title affect how NTUC investment have on singapore economy or do you imply that unless that i have to be a MSc or PHD to be qualified to give my views on economics??
Standard "blame game" of a lame politician in the making; but thanks alot anyway for your "compliments" whether I am a nationalist or an economist - it is no skin off my nose.
Here lies the problem that you have created in your head-on rush to give your critque, by preferring to read more then what my writing clearly spelled out. if you have to blame someone... blame yourself for inability to express yourself correctly and and with foresight.... afterall... the message is in the eye of the perciever... furthermore... i think that you are far more nationalistic then economistic..
For someone who has basic university training in economics, you sure are out to impress without even trying to understand the point of views of kenhor and myself. To borrow a line from someone of your class - "we are talking over each other's head".
In your earlier post, you mentioned your expert "keysian effect" of an investment such as this NTUC White Elephant can have; and I had merely indicated how wrong you can be, as the major beneficiary of such an construction venture will largely benefit foreigners more then Singaporeans. which i have replied to kenhor post... how such an investment can also led to much benefits in many local economy and singaporeans.. ... furthermore... singapore is an open economy... its close to impossible to keep the money in the local economy as there are simply too many leaks... the best that can be done.. is to bring in more money then those that leaked out....
Why do you have a habit of not addressing the point stated ?
Me upset about Foreigners taking more jobs ? Did I hint of envy or anger - some rude words from me ? i find your desire to protect locals over foreigns as a part of the development economist belieft... which are not only nationalistic but protectionist as well.....
Now you are being personal, and should look at your reply to the issue that was posted by yourself (2 posting ago).
Your 3 replies missed the point of my original post completely, which I have explained in the preceding reply; and you did or could not respond to my query as to how such an investment of mega-million proportion can directly benefit the HDB Heartlander in this hard times, when NTUC was originally set up to service the Blue Collar Workers (and subsequently the White Collar as well, and now the Middle Executives) my 3 replies did not missed the point.. and answered your query straight on... just that... perhaps you are too thick to understand... or you prefer not to understand it.. so as to keep your position....
If you cannot concede your mistake, at least hold your tongue and not debase this forum with your style of debate.
At least someone that was supposed to be in the same class as you, now seem to show more Class and Style.
Try to read the original intent of what has been written in clear simple English.
Is this the best counter you can offer to the weak point that I have exposed in your stated observation of "ikan bilis" ? do you deny that you feel that the govt's assistance is too little and would like to see more or seek more??
If you prefer to read it as my complaint that the Government's assistance is too little, then I am afraid I cannot help you with a detailed lesson in understanding English.
Why did you cash in your ERS and SSS - although I do not expect you to give your honest reply ?
From the many conversation that I had with all that I come across with, the honest statement was that "why should I keep these shares, as one will not know what the fickle Government will do next, and what the future will be ? Might as well take what is available now then lose everything tomorrow" that is too generalised a conclusion... which i find its whitewashing... as not all human think alike...face the same situation and in the same circumstance...
Generalised conclusion ? I will start a new topic to obtain some response as to why people cash in their ERS and SSS Shares.
Same question as above - why did you cash your ERS and SSS ? In a hurry too - within the Year ?
Well, at least you are honest enough to concede that the ERS and SSS scheme is midguided besides being paltry, and that the funds could have been put to better use. i percieve the current economic crisis as a golden opportunity for the govt to show its concern for its citizens... a proper system could have been instituted to grant help to all needy singaporeans... unfortunately... this topic is departing from the original topic... and yes... i think the govt... is too economistic an animal this time round...
Certainly confirm that you are some kind of clairvoyant with psychic powers to read more into my postings of simple words.
BTW I have kept all my ERS and SSS shares, as the sums are so paltry that it is not worth my effort even to think about it. if you dont need it... please donate it to the community chest....
Give me your suggested figures then ?
Billions of Dollars ? When the CPF account holders number about Two Thirds of the Population of 4.5 million; and the average payout is only about $400 per head ? Each hand out is only about $2 billion, and not BILLIONS of Dollars. its not the money amount that i am really concerned... although i must say ... your calculations appears too low... i wonder why .. i am more interested in the proper allocation of the fund... to achieve max return, benefit and utility... as such... i have some misgiving about how this amount has been disbursed....
Great "keynsian" economist at work ?
What now ?
Imagine if the $80 Million or $180 Million or $800 Million spent on the NTUC White Elephant is handed back to the 600,000 to 800,000 odd members, the dividend per head would have been more directly beneficial to Singaporeans, and more penetrating to the Singapore economy at large (speculative numbers which could be smaller, resulting in bigger dividend per head). me thinks its unfair to put NTUC down when:
1... you dont know the exact amount that NTUC is spending...
2... you dont know how much of the amount is from the NTUC kitty...
3... you dont know how much of the amount might be through loans... from banks...
4... you dont know how many members are really there in NTUC...
5... you dont know the expected returns from this investment...
6... you dont know the potential feed back consumption from a nation wide disbursement of NTUC fund...
7... you dont know how much of this disbursed dividends might outflow to johor...
8... you dont know how much singaporeans will spend with this increase in disposable income...
9... you dont know how much money does NTUC really have and its liquidity...balance sheets and others... furthermore... a disbursement is a one time affair... and its doubtful how a one time disbursement would affect (if any at all) on consumption as consumer knew that there will not be a next disbursement (forward expectation) and might decide to keep the excess income for use over several months... leading to either no increase in consumption spending or leads to outflow to johor which sells at a cheaper price...
Those figures of $80 million, $180 million and $800 million are too big an amount now, when you just complained that the figures were too low earlier ?
What happened to your belief in the "Keynsian Multiplier Effect" ?
Will the spending on infrastructure not have the same "you don't know...." questions ?
Are you not supposed to be the expert in "Keynsian Economy" that you first brought to this posting ? All the "multiplier effect" and all ?
Here is your "keysian economics" put into effective application. how?
And you are asking me ?
A person whom you say is a nationalist and not an economist ?
Oh ???
What happened to your "keynsian theory" that expounded the theory about confidence level being primed by the multiplier effect of public disbursement ? What happened to your "keynsian theory" for spending on the NTUC White Elephant ? please recheck your statement... i believe that the investment would raise demand for goods and services with the potential in helping to raise GDP... providing jobs for many in the economy through ripple effect... aka keynesian effect... as for its effect on overall consumer confidence... that project aint big enough..... its not another MRT project!
So now this NTUC White Elephant Project is not big enough to get the "keynsian multiplier effect theory" going ?
I remembered your first post of this "keynsian theory" quite differently, and which started this debate.
Now you are reversing your position, from what you had originally posted, when you asked "what if NTUC go into the red?"
Why should it go into the red, when it had shown its expertise in generating so much funds that are not returned to the shareholders and members; and without the general consensus of the members and shareholders, the money is spent quietly on a White Elephant, which even you did not know about ? i think that you are simply illogical... do you have NTUC's balance sheet to back up your claim?? and why cant NTUC conduct an investment for the benefit for all singaporeans as well as for its cooperative?? lastly... how does one spent quietly on an elephant?? invisible elephant??
Anyway, will NTUC ever go into the red ?
This original question begs an answer, which you refused to give but went on your proud display of "keynsian multiplier effect theory".
The original question was "how does this NTUC investment benefit the Singapore Heartlanders ?".
You must be trying to be simple minded to the extreme.
Why do you not admit it ? That unfortunately, the efficient ruthlessness in NTUC FairPrice expansion strategy has squeezed out the small neighborhood provision stores in Singapore. you very odd leh... on the one hand you think NTUC making obscene profit... yet at the same time you believe that the prices charge by NTUC is killing neighborhood stores... which charge higher then NTUC.... so how come... NTUC can make so much money at low price... while local stores charge higher then NTUC went bust?? isit due to economies of scale?? or simply due to failure to exploit the economic strength or relative advantage?
Where have all the small "family run provision stores" gone now ?
Were they not encouraged to be progressive and form up with NTUC to be part of a chain of Econ-Mini-Mart to obtain economy of scale ?
What do you think has happened to them, despite the purchasing clout of the NTUC group ?
Do your research, or I will be accused of being inflamotary, narrow minded, and being a leftist anti-goverment crackpot.
The original issue was - should we go to Malaysia to do our shopping. Will this answer you ? No need to go so far to find the farmer.
If the NTUC Supermarket prices of Malaysian goods are double the price of those found in Johor Baru Mega Stores, do you not call this profiteering on NTUC part ? wapiang.... NTUC is in singapore.. pay singapore rent... singapore wages... transport, taxation and many others... you might as well go to the farmer... i think he will charge even lower...
BTW, who do you think caused the high costs of land, wages, transport, taxation and many others ?
No points for your effort to come to this conclusion; neither will any points for your effort with your dissertation of the "keynsian theory" as posted by you. based on your last 2 point... i have come to the conclusion... you are not an economist... or a bad economist... or a junior economist who havent touch advance micro and macro economic theories in year 4 economics... in fact.. its more probable you are not an economist.....
Why so ? i deleted the rest from cluttering the topic... no point if i am a senior here.. junior there... nobody everywhere... its a mere title that does not interest me.... i am just a human... that is all.. no need titles or any stupid addressing...
Being a Senior Member, one would expect a certain minimum standard of posting in this sgForum, otherwise why bother with the display of titles ?
Wild charging into a topic, personal attacks, humiliating someone else's thoughts, degrading labels thrown when nothing better can come out of an alternative view, disgraceful language.
If this is the kind of style that is being offered, then perhaps it is a pity that this forum should carry the first two alphabets that dare to make a hint associating itself as the leading forum of this country. -
Originally posted by kenhor:
I think this come out in the new paper a few days ago. With us spending in singapore, the money can be use to keep someone employ. And this person who is employ can spend the money earn. This inturn keep another person employ and the circle contiune. By having this circle, the poors in spore will have a job. But if we keep on spending oversea, our money will be helping other people and not the poor of spore.
To eskyzone,
[b]
True. But by buy those stuff in spore, the money flow back to our economy.
There is a limit on what patrotism can do for the average man. Lets talk about essentials.
If you go and buy the Bai-Ling brand luncheon meat, its sold at about $2-$2.50 per can. The American Spam is sold at $3-$4. Both are imported. So if you are rich, you pay like 2x more for a better quality product.
In Malaysia, the Ba-Ling brand is RM3.50. The Spam brand is RM10.50. So the rich pay 3x more than the poor. This is a case where the rich subsidize the poor, as the more expensive stuff carry higher margins there.
For us poorer people, we have to pay$2 over here and Rm3.50 ($1.60) over in Malaysia. That means that the margin for what poor people pay in Singapore is the same as what rich people pay.
While this is fair, this is unkind of the poor people to have to suffer while the richer enjoy. So why can't the poorer people go off to Malaysia and get luncheon meat at cheaper prices in Malaysia? After all, its made in China.
The government never take care of the poor, they must take care of them selves.
We have the same comparison for all products that you use in everyday life, soap, detergent, food, toothpaste, toilet paper. Luxury branded items are more affordable here while BASIC neccessities are more affordable there. And the stuff is imported from china nowadays anyway. So why are the ordinary singaporeans having to subsidize the rich?[/b][/b]
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If Singapore believe in the "Free Market Economy" - in which "Supply and Demand" determine the price, then this principle should be allowed to determine the actual prices of properties, wages, prices of Goods and Services, COE's, Public Transport, and all other essentials and non-essentials.Originally posted by eskyzone:I think this come out in the new paper a few days ago. With us spending in singapore, the money can be use to keep someone employ. And this person who is employ can spend the money earn. This inturn keep another person employ and the circle contiune. By having this circle, the poors in spore will have a job. But if we keep on spending oversea, our money will be helping other people and not the poor of spore.
The Singapore market is regulated by the Government to the point that the high prices of properties in Singapore must continuoulsy be kept high.
If ever the property prices are allowed to slide, many banks will have worthless mortgages in their possession.
With property prices kept artificially high, one will never see the other prices of Goods and Services ever falling.
Our wages will also have to be kept high, or it will be a hot potato for the Government, who will have to face an impoverished electorate that is held to ransom by the Banks.
So the vicious cycles go on, with the Citizens being a slave for the rest of their lives to the Government-Bank Partnership.
Nationalism first ? Read my earlier post